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Just to get this started...
1) Calvin's theology, especially as articulated in the Westminster Confession makes God the author of sin.
This conclusion cannot be refuted notwithstanding the illogical disclaimer they tack on to their non-biblical ideas.
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Chapter 5 "Of Providence"
II. Although, in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first Cause, all things come to pass immutably, and infallibly; yet, by the same providence, He orders them to fall out, according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.
III. God, in His ordinary providence, makes use of means, yet is free to work without, above, and against them, at His pleasure.
IV. The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God so far manifest themselves in His providence, that it extends itself even to the first fall, and all other sins of angels and men; and that not by a bare permission, but such as has joined with it a most wise and powerful bounding, and otherwise ordering, and governing of them, in a manifold dispensation, to His own holy ends; yet so, as the sinfulness thereof proceeds only from the creature, and not from God, who, being most holy and righteous, neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin.
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jmartin
From the quote above please notice, by God's decree, (according to this doctrine) all things come to pass, yet they disclaim that God is the author of sin.
This is the classical internal contradiction of Calvinism. There is no escaping it. If God is the first cause of all that happens, and sin happens then God is the author of sin. The Calvinist must either give up absolute predestination of all events, (which they would never do!) or they must admit God as the author of sin, (which they deny) To put it simply this is not reasonable, logical, scriptural or true.
The creature does in fact make decisions, real alternative choices between two alternate outcomes. The choice is enabled by God of course, especially when it comes to repenting and believing the Gospel... Point being- a playing field does in fact exist whereby mankind makes choices, God created and orchestrated this "playing field" but the choices made are in fact very real with eternal consequences.
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Sorry, but your argument is not convincing. Neither Calvin nor Reformed theology makes God the author of sin.
Jerry
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DiuxieFreedom,
You laid it out nicely. At lease it sounds good to me.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation." Everyday Hunter
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If one molecule in this universe is running around without God's permission and out of His control, then how do YOU know that Christs sacrifice paid for your sins on the cross? If God is truly God, he is sovereign over all things, over all decisions. For what Calvin had to work with, he came pretty close. Keep in mind that he did not have much that went before him to shape his theology. If you actually read more of Calvins works, he does not say that God is the author of sin. I suggest you start with www.ccel.org. You might learn something.
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From the Westminster Shorter Catechism:
Q. 7. What are the decrees of God?
A. The decrees of God are, his eternal purpose, according to the counsel of his will, whereby, for his own glory, he hath foreordained whatsoever comes to pass [a]. [a]. Ps. 33:11; Isa. 14:24; Acts 2:23; Eph. 1:11-12
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Master Bonzi
Well... I have read a lot of Calvinism over the years, including Calvin's "Institutes of the Christian Religion," and some of Owen and Goodwin and Philip Schaff's "Creeds of Christendom" But I learn a lot, quite a lot by debating Calvinism. Calvinists are usually good scholars, (although misguided!) BUT! you would have to be to continually try and reconcile such glaring internal contradictions!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
But seriously...
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
Please consider the quote above from the Shorter Catechism and please work your way out of this:
-------------------------------------------- God causes all things that come to pass
but
Sin comes to pass -----------------------------------
So you have to give up one or the other...
Either God does not cause everything that comes to pass or Sin does not come to pass or The inescapable conclusion is that God causes sin to come to pass -----------------------
But to just tack on a disclaimer like in my original quote from the unabridged West.Conf. does not reconcile this internal contradiction inherent in classical Calvinism. (the disclaimer being the simple statement that God is not the author of sin)
Dismissal through disdain may be a debating tool but it does not face the hard math and give an answer.
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Dixie,
Calvin never said that God is the author or giver of sin. Reformed theology says that God allows sin to happen. Big difference. If we believe in a perfectly Holy God, how then could a perfectly Holy God create sin?
What you are doing is taking one of the great mysteries of God and attempting to make an arguement out of it. RC Sproal says on the subject,
"Then, as now, I realize that evil was a problem for the sovereignty of God. Did evil come into the world against Gods sovereign will? If so, then he must not be absolutely sovereign. If not then you must conclude that in some sense, even evil was forordained by God. For years I sought the answer to this problem, scouring the works of theologins and philosophers. I found some clever attempts at resolving the problem but, as of yet, have never found a deeply satifying answer."
This is one of the great mysteries of the Bible. If you get hung up on not understanding it, you are not alone. But, if you dismiss Reformed theology for a question that no one can answer, then you are dismissing much of scripture to answer this question with a lame explanation.
So, I have given you my answer. What is your answer to the question on the origins of evil?
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Calvin never said that God is the author or giver of sin. Reformed theology says that God allows sin to happen. Big difference. If we believe in a perfectly Holy God, how then could a perfectly Holy God create sin? ---------------------------------------------
What I am getting at is this; the logical conclusions of the Westminster Confession quoted above does in fact make God the author of sin, whether they deny it or not.
Since sin comes to pass, you must give up the premise that God causes all things that come to pass. Plain and simple.
I believe the source of evil is very simple, the perverse willful choice of the creature whether angelic or human.
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Hey neighbor... did you graduate from Moody this past spring? What now? (How about Asbury or Gordon Conwell???)
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But, I will come back with: If you say we choose evil through a choice, then evil must have already existed for us to choose. We can't choose something that does not exist. If evil does not exist prior to a choice, then evil is just a figment of our imagination and it does not really exist. We (man) or angels are incapible of creating evil let alone anything. Sin had to start somewhere. It did not just "appear" with a choice. I don't know were it came from. It is beyond my thinking. The fact that you said "I believe the source of evil is very simple, the perverse willful choice of the creature whether angelic or human." If it was a "perverse" willful choice, then evil must already be at work, and no source is detected.
I still don't understand why you think we must give up that God causes everything to pass because we can't explain the origin of evil. The scriptures clearly state that everything in creation is under the control and authority of God. I think every Christian will acknowledge that. I also hope that every Christian will say that God did not create evil.
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Re evil and GOD:He's agin it! That's all I need to know.I used to want to know more but today I only want to know things that will ensure I know WHAT TO DO.Life is a program of action. I sincerely do enjoy the back and forth you guys get into.Lot's of smart guys on here.Keep it up!
Never holler whoa or look back in a tight place
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I hope i am not interrupting a private discussion but i am confused: you speak of sin as if it is a tangible thing, a force or energy; rather than the absence of good. Sin is no more a thing that can be created than darkness or a vaccume. It is an absence, not a presence; an absence that can only exist by free will, which is what i think Dixie Freedom is trying to get at.
Calvin never said that God is the author or giver of sin. Reformed theology says that God allows sin to happen. Big difference. If we believe in a perfectly Holy God, how then could a perfectly Holy God create sin?
Thank you, most of my Calvinist friends are not that reformed. Can you tell me why a Sovereign God cannot allow free will as many of my Calvinist friends tell me? I hope i did not come off sounding hostile. I have been away for a while and this seemed like the perfect chance to get an answer to a nagging question.
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45LCshooter. Sin is no more a thing that can be created than darkness or a vaccume. It is an absence, not a presence; "'I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these.'" Isaiah 45:7
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation." Everyday Hunter
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Lack of free will is the inability to choose between good and evil. Having free will means that we can choose to do good despite our sinful nature. (that is, pure righteous good) It is not the "puppet" thing most people think of. We believe that man without God is depraved. Totally depraved to the point that without God, man cannot choose God. It takes God to choose God. Without the aid of God, nobody would have an inclination to even think about following Christ or to do anything with pure intentions. It is because we are held in bondage to our sinful natures that our will is not free. We are just free to sin, not do good. With God in the picture and salvation, we are freed from our sinful nature and are made slaves to righteousness. Paul lays it out in Romans.
Hope that answers your question. Not having a free will does not turn God into a tyrant, it shows how graciously he is towards us fallen man.
I've got to go fish.
Last edited by Master_Bonzi; 07/26/04.
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Man has the freedom to make choices, but that is not free will. Free will would mean that one could make any choice, and those choices would not be constrained.
However, because man is depraved he cannot choose God. That is not God's doings, but the limitation that sin and the sin nature places upon man. It is interesting that Jesus said that, John 6:44 No man CAN come to me, except the Father which hath sent me DRAW him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
That word draw is hel'-ko; and means to drag (literally or figuratively):--draw. It is the word used when, Acts 16:19 And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and DREW them into the marketplace unto the rulers,
I mention that so that it is clear that it does not permit the translation "to woo." It means to drag as a sword.
Why cannot man come to Jesus except the Father draw/drag him to Jesus? It is because that man is so depraved that he is unable to choose God. Man is a sinner by choice and nature. He does not have a free will, but a will that can make choices that are constrained by his sin nature.
Jerry
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Then we are not so different after all.
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Total Depravity is the common ground of the Augustinian, the Lutheran, the Calvinist and surprise surprise! The Wesleyan Arminian! Yes that is correct! Arminians believe in Total Depravity and Inability also.
Man born in sin is free to choose sin. Man in his unregenerate state cannot "will" himself regenerate. Regeneration is a direct act of the Holy Spirit imparting new life to the sin bound creature. It is a miracle and is not a product of man's will.
The analogy I like is one of a heart transplant. You cannot put yourself under the anesthesia and then cut your own heart out on the operating table and then sew in a new one. The Doc has to do that.
Where the philosophoical unbiblical Calvinists differ from the plain biblicist Arminians is this:
The Arminian maintains that man may consent or refuse the operation but- The Calvinist says man is arrested against his will and forced into the hospital and forced to recieve the operation, like it or not, but only if his name was on a list from before the foundation fo the world.
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Dixie, The Calvinist says man is arrested against his will and forced into the hospital and forced to recieve the operation, like it or not, but only if his name was on a list from before the foundation fo the world. Wow! Who made the list?
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation." Everyday Hunter
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