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Lee24 Offline OP
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The Ruger No. 1B, the Browning B-78 have 26-inch barrels, and the Model 1885 have 28-inch barrels. I was curious what kind of real-world velocity increases any of you are getting over your bolt actions with 22 and 24-inch barrels.

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The answer is "It depends." It depends on what caliber you are shooting, what load, what powder etc. Usually the generic answer is 50-100 fps per inch +/- Some calibers/loads will reach optimal velocities in an 18-20 inch barrel, such as a 30-30 WCF. Some high capacity "Magnums" like a 7mm Ultra Mag or 30-378 Weatherby need 26" tubes or even do better with 28" I guess it has always come down to how much velocity do I need and how much barrel do I want to carry.


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I know all about the theory, which is why I asked for personal real-world experience from those who own some of the same caliber in 22-inch "normal" rifles, and the 26 and 28 inch single shot rifles.

I was thinking about the Ruger No. 1B, and the 1885 High Walls, but it would apply to bolt actions, too.

For example, I had a 26-inch .308 Steyr SSG which got about 150 more FPS out of a 173-gr bullet, and 100 FPS more out of 150-gr loads.

My Model 70 single shot in .30-06 with a 30-inch barrel would push 190-gr and 200-gr bullets 150 FPS faster than my 22-inch Model 70 or my Remington 700.

That's what I was looking for - the people who own, say, a Ruger No. 1-A and a 1-B, both in .270 Win or .257 Roberts.

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Lee........I would guess a gain of around 20 fps per inch. A 50 fps (per inch) difference is a little too much and certainly a 100 fps (per inch) difference, is way too much with most cartridges.

The only way to know any accurate differences is with some side by side chrony reading comparisons.

Your previous experience with your 30" barreled 30-06 vs your 22" M/70 imo, should be a pretty good indicator of what to expect (per inch) between the longer barreled single shots and the 22' to 24" bolt actions.

The shorter 8" of barrel length with your 22" er, resulted in a 150 fps loss when compared to your 30" 30-06. 150 fps divided by 8" = 18.75 fps (per inch).

So, I`ll say and stick with, that about a 20 fps increase (per inch) is very realistic, given of course the same identical ammo or reloading components are used.


28 Nosler,,,,300WSM,,,,338-378 Wby,,,,375 Ruger


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Lee, here is what I have for what it is worth. 257Roberts.
Load, 46gr H4350, 100gr Nosler Balistic Tip, W-W +P case, CCI200 primer.
Ruger Ultra Lite, 20 inch Barrel, 3051 fps.
Custom Mauser, 22 inch barrel, 3150 fps.
Ruger #1B, 26 inch Barrel, 3232 fps.
Kind of an apples and oranges comparison, throat lengths all different, the Mauser has a 1 in 12 twist barrel versus 1 in 10 on the others. Plus the Mauser shoots that load very well the other two not so much, matter of fact appeared a touch hot in the #1. Finally just to throw some chaff in the comparison an older Ruger M77, 22 inch barrel with a real long throat only clocked in the mid 2800's with the same load. All the powder came from the same 8# keg, primers, bullets, brass from the same lots. A longer barrel will usually gain you some velocity but the exact amount per inch is hard to quantify do to all the other factors that come into play. It is kind of fun to do the comparison though.

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The only light I can shed on this subject is comparing loading manual velocities from 24" test barrels to real life velocity from my 26" 300 win mag.

Most of the books show 180gr bullets with 70grs of H4831 between 2700fps or so up to close to 2800fps with 24's. I have chronographed this particular loads many times out of my 26" barrel and gotten a very consistent 2875fps. The chamber on my rifle is supposed to be a minimum SAAMI hunting chamber.

Take it for what it is worth.

ss


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Lee24 Offline OP
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quarterbore, that's as close to apples-and-apples as it gets. I think it shows how much velocity you can get with an extra 6 inches of barrel, instead of more powder and redline pressures.

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Here's some data from my rifles. Both started at 26", and I later cut them to 22". So the data is based on same barrel, same load baseline.

The 30-06 lost about 100 fps total (25 fps per inch). 60gr RL22, 210 Berger. 2800 fps to 2700 fps.

The 308 lost about 60 fps total (15 fps per inch). 49gr W760, 210 Berger. 2560 fps to 2500 fps.

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Originally Posted by MontanaMarine
Here's some data from my rifles. Both started at 26", and I later cut them to 22". So the data is based on same barrel, same load baseline.

The 30-06 lost about 100 fps total (25 fps per inch). 60gr RL22, 210 Berger. 2800 fps to 2700 fps.

The 308 lost about 60 fps total (15 fps per inch). 49gr W760, 210 Berger. 2560 fps to 2500 fps.


And that, would be the only way to know what the actual difference would be. Same rifle, same load, same barrel but at different lengths.




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Lee24 Offline OP
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Yes, if you want something with scientific accuracy, you would need to conduct a scientific experiment.

Ed Sisk and others have done that.

http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/2009/02/05/barrel-length-and-velocity-barrel-cut-down-tests/

But I was asking for the real world benefits perceived by those who hunt with single shot rifles, such as in shooting heavier bullets in the 6mm Remington, .257 Roberts, .270, .30-06, 7mm Rem Mag, .300 WM, etc.

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The first question was about comps between bolt guns and Ruger #1s with different length barrels. The Ruger action is so damn strong that I'm sure some of them get pushed with hotter loads than most bolt rifles ever see. Not a fair comp -- or a wise practice I know -- but the velocity advantages are surely higher. Anyone out there delved into these black arts?

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Yes, I was asking about shooting the same ammunition in a 22-inch bolt action and a 26-inch Ruger 1-B, or a 28-inch 1885 High Wall.

But you are right - the reality is both single shots are so strong, that some are tempted to stoke them up with hotter loads than they might dare in their bolt action rifles. So they are getting higher velocities from higher pressures, too. As long as they are not sacrificing accuracy, I am interested in hearing all of it.

I think most single shot shooters, even hunters, are more into oddball calibers, antique cartridges, even cast bullets and black powder, because they like the way the rifles look and work more than anything else.

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Per your "philosophy" anything over 2700 fps is of no practical benefit, so what does it really matter?

Wether the action is a falling block or turnbolt has nothing to do with relative velocity per barrel length. With either action type the brass will puke long before the barrel or action fail.

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Several years ago a buddy had a pair of .280 Ackley Improved Rifles. One was a custom Remington 721 with a 26" Douglas Premium Barrel. The second (chamber cut with the same reamer if I remember right) was a Thompson / Center TCR 87 with a 24" Barrel. In those two barrels no matter what load we chronographed in both rifles the 24" T/C Barrel produced more velocity, about 100 FPS more.

With that said you have to throw the individual rifling into the mix also.

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Respected gun-maker Charlie Sisk did some excellent velocity tests with different length barrels and posted the results here on the "Fire". Anticipating questions like the one posed in this thread, I copied those results... here is Charlie's post and the information this thread seeks. smile


Charlie_Sisk
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Loc: Dayton, Texas Been doing a little more experimenting.........
#88566 - 09/14/02 03:15 PM Edit Reply Quote



For a long time I have wondered about how barrel length affected velocity. I had always been told you need a certain length barrel for certain calibers. I have read when folks compared one gun to another with different lengths but I always thought that was not an apples to apples comparision. So I did a few test myself.
All these were Shilen barrels. I used the same brass through out the whole test. All weighed to with 1 grain. Bullets were tested on the Juenke machine. Powder charges were weighed to .1 grain. The same rest, chronograph, Redding press, primers all from the same lot, bullets for the same box, same lathe, same crowning tool, same cutoff tool, and each rifle done from start to finish on the same day. Ambient temperature was the same because I shoot from inside the shop. I held the rifle the same way on the rest every time. I shot ten rounds first to break in the barrel. Then cleaned with Sweets and fired one fouling shot. Then shot five rounds and took the average. I used a midrange load fron the Nosler book, not too hot but certainly not a reduced load. Here is what I got.

22-250 Hodgdon 380 34 grains Federal GM210M Remington brass 55 grain Ballistic Tip
27 inches 3469 fps
26 3451
25 3425
24 3407
56 fps from highest to lowest

270 Winchester Hodgdon 4350 54 grains Federal GM210M Winchester brass 130 grain Sierra
27 inches 3115 fps
26 3093
25 3071
24 3054
23 3035
22 3027
21 3001
114 fps from highest to lowest

300 Winchester mag Federal GM215M Winchester brass 74 grains of Reloder 22 180 grain Partition
27 inches 3055 fps
26 3031
25 3024
24 3003
23 2984
22 2960
95 fps from highest to lowest

340 Weatherby Federal GM215M 250 grain Sierra
81 grains Reloder 22 Wby brass
27 inches 2837 fps
26 2817
25 2809
24 2791
23 2777
22 2755
21 2731
106 fps from highest to lowest

I think I will do a little more thinking before I recommend a barrel length in the future. What do you folks think ?
Charlie



.338 Winchester & .257 Roberts

Here is the info about the 338 Win and the 257 Roberts.
338 Win mag
Winchester brass
Federal GM215M primers
Reloder 19....73 grains
250 grain Partitions
27 inches.....2806 fps
26 inches.....2787 fps
25 inches.....2761 fps
24 inches.....2743 fps
23 inches.....2716 fps
22 inches.....2697 fps
21 inches.....2676 fps
20 inches.....2656 fps
150 fps from 27 inches to 21 inches

257 Roberts
Federal GM210M primers
Remington brass
H-4350....45 grains
120 grain Partitions
27 inches.....2860 fps
26 inches.....2834 fps
26 inches.....2815 fps
25 inches.....2815 fps
24 inches.....2798 fps
23 inches.....2775 fps
22 inches.....2760 fps
21 inches.....2739 fps
20 inches.....2717 fps
143 fps from 27 inches to 20 inches

I want to test this on the next 450 Marlin I build and on a 222 Remington. If I get the same results with those, in my mind the test is over. I think this will be enough data to support the findings. Are there any folks out there who have a degree in this sort of thing ? Maybe explain how many data points would be needed to be able to say this would work with the majority of calibers ? Someone with experience in statistical (spell check) quality control?
Charlie



--------------------
Sisk Rifles
400 County Road 2340
Dayton, Tx 77535
www.siskguns.com
charliesiskguns.com
1-936-258-4984

The data and opinions contained in these posts are the results of experiences with my equipment, componentry, and testing methodology ONLY. As your equipment, componentry, and methodology is different, NO CONCLUSIONS SHOULD BE DRAWN FROM ANY DATA PRESENTED, nor should any data presented form the basis for any load development. DO NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, ATTEMPT TO REPLICATE THESE RESULTS, as doing so could be extremely dangerous.


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I never shot a 7 ultra other than the one I had Pac Nor build w/ a 30 in. bbl on a Ruger No. 1 .

I can tell you that the velocities I got with 150 , 140 , and 120 gr bullets was substantially higher than othe folks reported with 26 in bbls .

Being able to use a slower burning powder - RL 25 instead of RL 22 like I used in my other ultra mags and most used in STW's - gained me a lot more than the extra length alone would have accounted for .


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