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#333371 08/15/04
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Any canoe experts here?

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#333372 08/15/04
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Hey white
I am not an expert but I know what works. Did alot of hunting out of one and still do. its fun to jump shoot ducks in one. I got alot of deer in one but the great state of michigan put a stop to that. We used to sneek up on the deer and pop them in the head with a pistol or shotgun if on the left side pistol on right. Fast jumpshooting with ducks. Me and a hunting buddy goes down drainage ditches and the more curves the better. double barrel works the best. put a carpet in the bottom if you have an aluminum one because the noise. if you have one of those composite ones you wont need that. I got mine at a garage sale and that was 15 yrs ago and still ok I put more scar stories on it and a little paint ( camo ) custom paint job and have fun. if you want stability make an outrigger for it. if you want to trol get a good garage sale motor and battery and strap it the back and go. dont get an outboard. you will be surprised at how fast you will go with an electric. if you are by yourself use the battery as a counter weight in front. if you are looking for a new one look no farther than an oldtown or a myers ( aluminum ) square sterns are better for the motor stuff but my paddle add on works ok. I can go on and on but let us know what info you need.

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#333373 08/15/04
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wellll.....
whatcha want to know, whitetail???

expert covers a lot of ground, but my family spends a lot of time on the water in canoes, and various forms of paddlecraft....
matter of fact my kids are out unloading the truck now as we just came off the river....


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#333374 08/15/04
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Hey Tail

what part or nearest town are you in wva I was born and raised there till I escaped. send me a PM

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#333375 08/15/04
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whitetail,

Get one big enough so you can sit in the middle while two young bucks paddle you around; and enjoy doing it.


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#333376 08/15/04
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Ya know, I ain't an expert either but the missus and I did spend about four hours today motoring around in our Old Town Discovery 13 ft canoe. Short and wide, dog slow to paddle with a 40" beam, but it does row all right and a 40 lb thrust electric Minn Kota can move it along right handy while making nary a sound. Most of the time we're only using about half that thrust, but a motor that size does allow you to get out of the way of powerboats and such, buck a headwind or move upstream. Also the motor is salt water spec, which is important (some ain't).

The canoe can carry 800 lbs but finding space to put 800 lbs of anything would be a problem, on the other hand it only weighs 80 pounds which means it is pretty easy for one guy to carry, which is sometimes important.

Stay away from aluminum, too durn noisy.

Old Town offers a line of "sporting" canoes aimed at hunters and fishermen, all have a flat bottom (including mine) for stability.
http://www.otccanoe.com/canoes_sporting.php

Birdwatcher


"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
#333377 08/15/04
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All,

I have spent allot of time on the water but mostly in V and flat bottom boats.

Would mostly be used for river trips (fishing & hunting) with no more than class II rapids.

I am drawn to the square end types for possible use with a motor but wonder how they actually handle.

Also wondering if its woth the money to go kevlar. Weight is not a big issue but it could be at some point.

About 1/2 the time I would be solo and others with 1 adult and a kid or dog.

I know this is general info but have spent hours on the web looking and think I might need some advice to help me eliminate what WONT work.

#333378 08/15/04
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What contributes to stability and what makes one better in rapids?

#333379 08/16/04
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whitetail - I am no expert either, limited experience and that is flat water paddling, but I know a bit. Its the same old issue: What will do best for a few different applications. Stability, maneuverability, shipping limits. If you are really going to be solo alot, depending on the canoe, you need 15 ft or less, light weight, at least some rocker, and a moderately round bottom hull. However, I do have a fiberglass 16 footer, weighing 63 lbs, that I can paddle well on flat water. Also, for solo, you will need to learn a few of the techniques, if you don't already know them, otherwise any canoe will be difficult to handle. It will also need to be a symetrical hull shape for going both directions equally well. The canoe with these characteristics will often be fine for two paddlers, but any trip over a day or two will require room for more gear, then you are in the 17 ft category. Kevlar is great, but fragile, and is appreciated by those that do a lot of portaging.

Hope this helps, sse


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#333380 08/16/04
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hey whitetail,

there are a lot of great canoes out there, from a lot of different sources. we- no-nah canoes has a lot of good advice, on their website, about buying canoes... all of it is geared towards buying a we-no-nah.... by the way, they are a great company and have a lot of options... for a time, wenonah was all that i would own...

bell is another good company which produces a superior product, and stands behind it...

if class II rapids (or even class I) were a regular thing, i would avoid a square stern canoe....
i avoid them anyway because i enjoy paddling, and, for my money, there's never been one made which paddled right...

perhaps my personal favorite canoe today is my kippewa, made by swift canoe out of dwight, ontario. it handles superbly. i can put people in it who have never paddled anything before, and they have a great time... it has what the experts call "an easy turn of speed", which means that it paddles efficiently and easily... mine is a glass- kevlar hybrid, with wood trim and weighs about 55 lbs.... i know nothing about their service or how they stand behind their product, as i have only had this one for 12 years and am just breaking it in... and i'm the only person that i know who has one...

if you want to truly enjoy a canoe, do not get one built for heavy hauling, or wilderness tripping, as they are too deep, and sit too high in the water when lightly loaded, as for the average day trip... this causes them to catch more wind and control becomes work...
the average day tripping, or touring canoe will carry enough gear for 2 paddlers for a long weekend, or a short week.

a good canoe will provide you more enjoyment, and cause you less frustration, and worry, than any other type of watercraft.....

on average, i would steer a new, or casual buyer towards bell, or wenonah companies...
i think that they both have hulls geared towards hunting and fishing...
a glass canoe, built for touring is what most people want...
i think a web search of any of the companies mentioned would turn up a lot of info...

i have dealt extensively with wenonah...
bell has a great reputation as well...

both companies have people who will answer questions on the phone, and who know canoeing...

there is a paddling specialty shop in madison wisconsin called Carl's Paddlin' ... they are the true experts and have a wealth of integrity... a web search under that name would be productive as well...

have fun.... john w


"Chances Will Be Taken"


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#333381 08/16/04
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No expert, but I do have a 17' Wenonah Sundowner tandem in Royalex and a Wenonah Rendezvous solo in Royalex. Mostly daytripping with some moderate (up to Class III) whitewater. I try to do a weekend trip each on the Flambeau, St Croix and the Brule, and a week long BWCA trip every year.


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#333382 08/16/04
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john - I really enjoyed just perusing your response. Many good points there. My 16 footer is a Swift Algonquin. I think this company really excels in their non-symetrical hull boats, such as yours, I just don't happen to prefer them. I have been up to the Swift facility in Dwight more than once and they are pretty nice people to deal with. They fixed a few little exterior hairline cracks with no questions asked. I have the luxury of driving over there and I might tend to go with an American product if I coudn't do that.

Regards, sse


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#333383 08/16/04
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the kippewa is what i use for a solo boat as i am a VLP (very large paddler), it comes with a kneeling thwart, designed for the guy who wants to use it solo. i am more comfortable on my garage engineered, structural foam kneeling saddle... which i can use in almost any tandem boat.....

for a paddler who might see shallow water frequently, the asymmetrical hull offers some additional efficiency with little penalty..... john w


"Chances Will Be Taken"


#333384 08/16/04
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A few years ago I wanted a canoe for exactly your purposes and after some research settled on the Mad River Tahoe 14. Short for lighter weight, easy turning, use in smaller waters, and beamy for stability in fishing and hauling heavy loads like big game. It paddles well solo but will take two people and gear, flat water or class II rivers edged into III when solo for fun, without serious gear. Old Town now builds something almost identical in a bit heavier weight and half the cost, as do some other companies. I didn�t plan to portage but car topping alone made me want one under 40 lbs. and the Tahoe is a little heavier than that.

Aluminum grabs rocks like sticking on the brakes. Royalex and the plastic skin types slide over rocks slick. Kevlar and glass are somewhere between and they chip on rocks, plus are more expensive. I prefer to step out and get in glass boats with the boat floating to protect them rather than nose up onto gravel bars. If you go glass or Kevlar, add a two inch wide layer of protection on bow and stern, above waterline to a foot or two back on the keel or centerline to absorb the abrasion real use causes.

A keel on the bottom stiffens cheaper canoes, and makes them paddle straight in flat water like on a rail. That rail is bad news in moving currents because it keeps on track and either doesn�t let you turn quick as needed, or the swirling currents grab it, such as when crossing an eddy line (from current into an eddy or vice versa) and try to flip the canoe over. In current it feels like a weird remote is controlling the canoe rather than you, overriding your steering. That grabbing action as you cross an eddy line happens with all canoes but is MUCH worse with a keel. I personally dislike canoes with a keel, though have paddled plenty of them.

Rocker helps turn quick in swift water, so true whitewater canoes are shaped like a banana. You probably want a slight bit of rocker for what you describe, say an inch to an inch and a half, with a smooth bottom slightly arched or bowed for strength without a keel. With a little bit of rocker you can turn easier in moving water, but you will have to learn to paddle straight, which will take an hour or so of practice to get fairly good at it. If you paddle once a month in a few months you will paddle straight without conscious effort.

The early Coleman canoes included every bad feature you can put in a canoe, but they are bomb proof sturdy and would do for your purpose. They were designed to nestle one inside another for efficient shipping rather than designed for use in water.

A good canoe feels tippy, or �tender� but becomes very stable when you lean it over a bit to either side, getting more steady as it lays over farther. That makes it easy to turn or paddle solo, and makes it much safer from turning over. A bad canoe feels very stable till it tips over a few degrees and then it goes all the way over to bottom up, suddenly.

Clipper canoes from Western Canoe & Kayak in Abbotsford, Canada, offer low seats and foot braces for control in white water and that is far more comfortable than kneeling. The foot braces are nice for any canoe and you can add them yourself.

I bought a kayak instead of the canoe. Caught a 15 lb. Chinook salmon from it a couple of weeks ago. It has hauled a LOT of salmon down rivers but this is the first I�ve caught in salt water from the kayak. As an Olympic paddler told me regarding canoes and kayaks, �Why drive a Chevy when you can drive a Ferrari?�

#333385 08/16/04
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the very first canoe that i ever bought was a mad river.... it's the boat which really hooked me into the sport...

they are a reputable company with a broad line of available hulls... i should have included them in my initial reply...

a lot,but not all, of their touring hulls feature a shallow v design.... i dislike this in a canoe as i feel that the convergence of the V acts much like the keels that okanagon warned of... a very good point, by the way..... john w


"Chances Will Be Taken"


#333386 08/16/04
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What a wealth of info so fast! Now I understand "rocker"

Was thinking about the Mad River Exploer RX. The IQ modular gunwale system is very appealing. Any experience with this new feature?

also the Old Town Appalachian.

Was a bit concerned about the Royalex construction and "cold cracks" becasue it would be stored outside.

#333387 08/16/04
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I own a Mad River Eplorer 16' canoe, made of Royalex. We have had the boat for 12 years now. It has been down the Colorado, Arkansas, and South Platte Rivers here in Colorado, and the North Platte in Wyoming, as well as many lakes. It has a large load-carrying capacity, and is a fairly stable craft. We fish out of it with no problem. It is also quite maneuverable on the rivers we have run. I would recommend it. As for the Royalex- it has proven to be quite durable. Scratches, dings, etc. clean up well with Armor-all. Have never had to patch it, and it has seen its share of rocks.


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#333388 08/16/04
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whitetail,

i have paddled mad rivers explorer, and i think its a pretty good canoe, for the uses that you outlined.....
as for the RX hull, i don't paddle them by choice, but understand the need for a bombproof, indestructable hull...
i own a sawyer that i bought used in 1990. it was built in 1979, from fiberglass, and has suffered no structural damage... it has teeter-tottered on top of rocks and logs... bumped, thumped, and crashed it's way down a lot of rivers... it's been drug through gravel, sand, and across roads... it's still as sound as the day it was built...
fiberglass boats can be broken.... the average paddler will never accomplish it.....

on average, the laminated boats, fiberglass, kevlar,and carbon fiber, are easier, and more efficient to paddle... this is because they are built with sharper, finer lines...
fiberglass is tough stuff, kevlar tougher, and carbon fiber is incredible... still, none are as bombproof indestructable as royalex...
friends who own both paddle laminate boats by preference, and use their RX hulls for the very meanest water..... john w


"Chances Will Be Taken"


#333389 08/16/04
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had to check out their website to find out about the IQ modular gunnels... sounds like a great system, and way overdue


"Chances Will Be Taken"


#333390 08/16/04
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Here are my thoughts are construction materials:

Plastic, ie royalex is great for bouncing down rocky rivers. They are relatively reasonbly priced, but would be nice if they were lighter.

Kevlar is feather lite, great if you'll be on a system of lakes and spending as much time portaging as paddling. They also hold their shape better, so should be a bit more efficient. Downside is cost, and not as durable if you really abuse the boat.

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