Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa How are guys transporting powder for muzzle loader hunts?

How are guys transporting powder for muzzle loader hunts in Africa? Unless a guy is hunting in RSA, the chance of locating a pound of black powder in Africa is quite low.

zero, zilch, nada BP on a plane. I'm not aware of any method in any country whereby it can be shipped. hafta buy it at your destination is my understanding.

What Utah Lefty said. No percussion caps either. Have your PH acquire blackpowder and caps for you locally before you arrive. There is a domestic manufacturer of black powder in South Africa, and some of the European powders are imported as well.

South Africa has a very fine long range black powder Creedmoor team that competes in international black powder cartridge rifle competition. They obviously have powder available to them.

Transporting BP, it's derivitives or caps by commercial airline breaches at least 12 international laws plus a plethora of anti terrorism laws plus endangers the aircraft and everyone aboard.

Anyone who considers it deserves everything they get sentenced to.

Are you talking about real blackpowder or a substitute? They are classified differently.

Here we go again. What all those guys said, EXCEPT, you CAN transport loaded cartridges just like regular bullets. jorge

I suepect his guy is a super-troll. He is looking for something else than just hunting information.

You can't transport any black powder, any of its derivitives or percussion caps at all on any commercial flight.

With respect to Jorge1, he's mistaken in his belief about having it in loaded cases.

We've been through all this before and if you do a search on the subject, you'll find a looooooooong thread on it that has all the links to Gvt and other websites that prove it's illegal and explains why.

Looooooooong previous posts do not make them more accurate than a single concise accurate post.

Again I will say blackpowder and their substitutes come under different regulations. I don't know what "you" are referring to as a derivative, in my post I said "substitute" and you did copy my post.

Blackpowder is classified as a class 1.1 explosive, it cannot go in a commercial flight in any form regardless of packaging. Blackpowder primarily consists of potassium nitrate, charcoal, and sulfur. T7 for example contains none of these, not a derivative, rather a substitute.

US DOT is the senior agency establishing the regulations. According to DOT Triple Se7en is quote "Not smokeless powder, but approved to ship and store as such" "Triple Seven is not an explosive regulated by Federal Explosive Law"

EVERY sporting goods store owner is aware of the different classifications. Most carry substitutes, fewer and fewer carry the real thing due to the storage expense.

Here are my real world experiences. I have 2 flintlocks, one exclusively blackpowder, the other only T7. I only travel with the T7 gun. I share the powder accessories between the 2. My accesories will sometimes set off detection sensors at the airport due to residual blackpowder residue. I may be asked to take them into the bathroom and wash them. The gun nor my 300 ultra cases loaded with 110gr of T7 never do. I have done this a number of times, most recently just a couple weeks ago. I will do it the same way on the next hunt.

Here is a direct copy email response from Hodgdon management along with my question below it regarding ammunition loaded with T7.

"Yes, it is legal to transport ammunition loaded with Triple Seven. Triple Seven travels as if it were smokeless powder.


Customer Satisfaction Manager
The Hodgdon Family of fine Propellants
Hodgdon Smokeless Powders
Winchester Legendary Propellants
IMR Propellants
Pyrodex
Triple Seven
Goex Black Powder


Hi,

I understand that it is not legal in any way to transport any loose gun powder or any blackpowder regardless of packaging on a commercial flight. However I also understand that it is perfectly legal to transport small amounts (5kg/11 pounds) of small arms ammunition (loaded bullets), packaged according to federal and airline regulations, in checked luggage. The question I have is since triple se7en is NOT blackpowder and is NOT an explosive by federal standards, is it legal to load it in small arms ammunition meeting all federal and airline regulations for packaging that ammunition and transport it in checked luggage.

Thanks,"

Hodgedon are wrong. T7 may comply with DOT but not with the Air Navigation Order, Carriage of Dangerous Goods Act, which is international law and applies worldwide nor does it comply with dozens of other national. international and presidential decrees etc.

Different catagories but the same classification. All are classified as Explosive but not all are 1.1. However, no material classified as explosive of any catagory may be carried on any commercial aircraft.

Frankly I'm not too keen/can't be bothered/ don't have the time to go into it all again but if you do a search here or on AR, you'll find I've previously provided something like 30 links to various governmental and commercial aviation sites that quote the various laws that prove my case. I've also explained why it's illegal and given examples of what can happen when illegal substances etc are carried......... to say nothing of the fact that no-one could post a single government or commercial site that said it was permitted.

If you don't believe that, try calling an airline and asking if they'll allow you to check in any BP, BP derivitive or percussion caps on their commercial flight or alternatively, try to check it in and tell them you have BP, BP derivitive or percussion caps and see if they'll allow it on the flight.

Frankly, if I were booked to go onto a flight and discovered someone had BP, ANY BP derivitive or PC on the flight, not only would I refuse to board, I'd also shop them to security officials without a qualm.

Do the search and click the links therein and you'll find I'm right.

If you'd care to let me have the email (by PM if you prefer) address of whoever at Hodgedon told you that, I'll be happy to prove the case to them also.

I'm not taking this stance because I want to argue or because I want to be right or even because I feel the need to disagree. I'm doing it because for various reasons, I take air safety very seriously indeed.

Blackpowder substitutes ARE NOT BLACKPOWDER, forget the word blackpowder, it doesn't apply, chemically substitutes aren't even remotely close to blackpowder, different worlds, that is why they are referred to as "substitutes". When you call the airlines and officials, ask about "smokeless powder". Substitutes are the SAME as smokeless powder, they won't set off ANY detection sensors.

Just to set your mind at ease, blackpowder ignition points are around 350-400F whereas substitutes are 750-800F. There is a reason many blackpowder enthusiasts say only use the real thing in a flintlock, ignition. I sacrifice the ignition to be able to fly with my powder.

A bit unusual that Hodgdon the most well known international manufacturer of both substitutes and real blackpowder would be wrong.

I appreciate it's not black powder but as far as the act I mentioned (and others) is concerned, it's still classified as an explosive not as a flammable material. Flammable materials may be carried on commercial flights, explosive materials may not.

PM sent.

If you go to Africa and expect to use a muzzle loader, then you buy the powder and components there...RSA is the only country I know of that has the necessary components or rather as far as I know it is the only country where you can purchase powder and caps.

Blackpowder shooting has has become popular in South Africa in the recent years and I would suggest that you contact your PH/ Guide to source you some locally. Wano(FFg &FFFG) & Swiss BP still available, plus the BP substitute Sannadex (which needs a higher volume load, 15-20% than FFg, I believe). Percussion caps (10,11 & Musket) also on the racks at dealers, you might have to shop around. Classic Arms ( www.classicarms.co.za ) are dealers in BP and Christiaan is a very helpfull fellow. You could also try the forum on www.whitesmoke.co.za for more info.
Hope this helps you

God help you if you are found with a tin of black powder or any derivative period in your luggage. I cannot even imagine what that would be like. Bad enough to miss the flight and the hunting trip, but what kind of felony record would you have for ever after that? No firearm ownership the rest of your life etc. Flagged as a high risk at customs and airports, employment issues? Just for a tin of powder you can replace in RSA!

I have had more then a dozen BP hunters in camp and all have managed to purchase and use the local stuff without a problem. As pointed out above, visit http://www.whitesmoke.co.za.

This site will help you sort out the locations and items you may need. It's actually easier to buy local then to carry this across the ocean anyway.

Sorry Steve, but been there and done that and more than once in loaded cases and TSA had no issues. jorge

Jorge,

I'm not saying it can't or hasn't been done, I'm saying that (for very good reason) it's highly illegal to carry any material classified as an explosive on a commercial aircraft.

quite frankly, you of all people should appreciate the dangers associated to the aircraft and passengers by such an act.

All you gotta do is check back to the old threads and you'll see the links I posted that prove I'm right. Additional proof can be found by the fact that no-one could post even a single link that said black powder, any derivitive or any other material classified as an explosive material can be legally carried on a commercial aircraft.

If you still doubt, try calling any commercial airline asking them if it's permitted to carry any material classified as explosive in any form of storage and/or any amount on any commercial flight.

Not only is it incredibly stupid to do such a thing for safety reasons, by doing so, the passenger is breaking a large number of international laws and in theory at least, could also lay himself open to possible prosecution under various anti terrorism laws.

FWIW, I emailed the TSA about a year ago asking this very question and they confirmed with me that it is illegal. Sadly, my maid bounced my laptop and I had to buy a new one and have lost the email.

You could however ask them yourself but you need to make sure you ask the right question which is: Are any black powder or black powder derivitives that are classified as explosive permitted to be carried on any commercial aircraft?

They might need to check the dangerous goods section of ther load & balance manuals that they'll find in offices such as dispatch, risk assessor, loadmaster and in the cockpit.

I have known of some besides Jorge who have successfully taken BP or its Substitutes inside of a few Shotgun shells as a part of a full box as well as full metallic cartridges. Not saying it is legal or adviseable, just answering the question as to how it is done in countries where black powder cannot be had.

Personally, I would not be interested in trying this. Risk VS reward is too high.

Let's look at it another way. Can we agree that Jim Shockey�s Gold Premium Grade Black Powder Replacement is effectively a similar material to what we're discussing?

http://www.americanpioneerpowder.com/products.html

I'd be grateful if someone can answer with a yes or no.

Hmmm..... seems no one is keen to answer that question, so I'll answer it myself.

Yes it is similar to what we're discussing but more importantly as far as commercial airlines and the governing bodies etc are concerned, black powder and ALL it's substitutes/derivatives etc are all classified as explosives. The number that comes afterwards is irrelevent as far as they're concerned. They take the attitude that an explosive is an explosive and is therefore prohibited from travelling on a commercial aircraft.

Incidentally, I further confirmed that fact by (again) calling the senior duty risk assessor of a well known airline. If anyone would care to check the previous threads on this, you'll find I've done this before and been given the same information as I was told today.

I'm not allowed to post details of my own site where all this is covered, so will do it another way. You might also like to read this: http://www.conservationforce.org/newsblackpowder.html

you'll note that it starts by using the term black powder and then names a substitute. This proves my point about all explosive material being viewed as the same general catagory on a commercial aircraft.

You'll also note that it even gives you details of just one of the many laws you're breaking and also the penalties that may be incurred. Note that those penalties are just for that one piece of legislation. You can be further prosecuted and can face additional penalties as well.

On the subject of other legislation under which you can ALSO be prosecuted. This link http://www.logisticstraining.com/Security/68fr-23831_interim.pdf talks of 5 years imprisonment and fines up to US$250K for the carriage of hazardous materials aboard aircraft in your luggage or on your person.


Note also the parts about labels and containers and remember that by putting BP or a derivative etc into metallic cases etc is a separate offence.

You can find the same previously argued debate here: http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/2559090/1

But of course, if someone is still convinced I'm wrong, I'd encourage them to post appropriate links from Gvt or official commercial aviation bodies that PROVE it......... so far, no-one has been able to do that....... and the reason for that is because there are none.