Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders percussion shotgun hunting

was thinking about taking up waterfowl with a 12 ga muzzleloader, anyone out there hunting waterfowl with a double-barrel 12 percussion replica?

Does anyone have experience putting steel through the replicas?

Is there a problem with the second barrel charge staying firmly placed in the bore when shooting a double barrel?

Can you get enough velocity with blackpowder or triple seven to kill cleanly with steel shot

cant say anything about T7 . but i can tell you will have more then enough with BP .
been a few years since i went after geese and ducks with my SXS and have not owned a 12 for years other then my paper cartradge SXS.
i do have several 20 gages and have taken everything from grouse, Turkey and geese with my 20 gage SXS flintlock .
The only thing a muzzleloader wont do in comparison to a BP cartridge is load as fast
it does just as good as my 12 gages do .
well as long as your not trying to use them like an anti aircraft gun .
In the end its all about learning your effective range and staying inside it .
But for setting birds coming in on decoys , I have not found any real difference in effectiveness at that range


as to steel . it would be best to use a plastic shot cup to hold the steel . get the ones with no compression cushion on the bottom or just cut the cushion off . I stopped using steel all together and went to Mostly I use bismuth for water fowl . With bismuth , you don�t need a cup as it wont hirt the bore
Its expensive though to by in bulk . But what I would do is by it in shells and remove the shot .
I then sell the casings to a friend that reloads .

As to un seating the load on the un fired barrel . Yes it can happen . But in all the years I have smoothbore hunted , I have one had one time where I found the charge had slightly moved and that was because I was using slightly to small cards .
With grouse , chucker and clays ,I take double shots all the time without even thinking about it . But if I only fire one barrel then I drop the RR to check the second barrel just as a precaution.
So the answer is yes it can happen but I don�t find it to happen often .
What I would recommend to you is try a few single shots and then check the un shot barrel by dropping you loading rod down the bore of the un fired barrel . If you find you charge is alittle lose , then you know you better re seat it before you shoot

And be sure to remove the cap before you drop that rod down the barrel to check the seating.

good point .
Common sense .
But then we live in a day and age where that is lacking don�t we .

TXS Captchee

I was wondering if plastic cups would work removing the cushion or buying them without would make the compression of the load uniform. (I've only shot mz rifles, never a shotgun). good tip

I've shot a lot of steel(mostly 2s to 4s) through some cheap non-steel modern doubles in my day and never had any problem. I'm sure it is tough on the chokes, but never a bulge etc. Of course I'd never shoot steel through my Parker, but I'm guessing a modern replica could take steel just like those cheap doubles.

Now they make some replicas that are chrome lined, but those are pricey and they make some with screw-in chokes. I wonder what would take the abuse of steel better, a standard choked non-screw in choke in cyl to modified or a screw-in choke in cyl to mod.

Also I wonder if all the abuse occurs in the choke and if you install hardened screwin chokes made for steel will that go a long way to solving the abuse.

I know what you mean about bismuth or other non-toxic shot being expensive in bulk a 100 bucks for 5 to 7 pounds!

well think of it this way .
lets say that a company , any company , be it custom or production where to use the very same barrel steel used in modern center fire barrels .
most all do this just at different degrees .
Now lets say all those where proofed to hold the pressures of modern smokeless.
There in lays the real catch .
See we are not using smokeless but black or black powder synthetic substitutes.
ALL are more corrosive in some form then smokeless .be it in their fouling , base make up or absorption of moistures .
Over time steel load creat scratching inside the bore that the corrosion will begin to grow on .
so even if you were to have a barrel built to the standards of moderns smokless . the effects of our powder would still over time have an effect on the barrel . that effect IMO is mangnified by the use of steel shot .

So while we can maybe say , we see no ill effects on the barrel . Over time there can be .

The thing with chokes and steel is that steel in the shot column does not deform as easily as lead. As such if a choke is not able to withstand or resist the more solid steel , it becomes damaged or over time worn from the steel shot ..
What a shot cup does is protect the bore by keeping the steel away from it thought its length . To include the choke .
Of course this wont happen if you over fill the cup when using it for a muzzleloading application .

As to if the plastic cup will work either by cutting off the compression cushion or simply buying them without .
The answer is yes . However there is one acceptation . See often with muzzleloading the bores are not true bore . In other words , while we may think we have a 12 gage , the bore may not be true 12 gage , it may be more to a 13 or an 11 . Unlike modern center fire which for the most part hold to a very true bore standard across manufactures .

The other thing is that unlike modern reloading , we don�t necessarily compress a load .
IE in cartridge reloading we would find a load describing the use of a give shot cup , to be compressed to a given ft lb .
HOWEVER with muzzleloading , we would use an older load combination found in old cartridge field loading applications . In other words the load is done in the field without a press . The cups used for that type of application have no compression cushion . Its simply placed ontop of a fiber wad'cushion . The shot is loaded in and an over the shot card is place over the shot . Then a hand tool is used to roll the end of the shell closed .

So what the cartridge shooter was doing back then , is the very same thing as a muzzleloading shooter would do . Excluding the rolling process . There is no compression of the load itself ..

Many folks wrongly think that you thump a shot load like you would do with a PRB load .
On the contrary . What you do with a shot load is push the components together .
When you see someone pressing down hard when loading a shot load , has more to do with air then on compacting the load .
As you push the over the powder cards down on the powder , the card will often act like a hydraulic cylinder in that the air in front of it must escape or it will try to push your RR back up . its will do this with force and if you dont hold onto the rod , it can throw the rod well up into the air . if your face is in the way it will come out with enough force to easly put an eye out.

The air must either come up and around the card or it must push down through the powder and out the nipple/ flash hole . Because of this many folks put either small notches in the card or a small pin hole . This allows the air to escape and the wad goes down onto the powder . This same thing goes for the thin over the shot card by the time you get to that step the shot column itself has nearly, if not completely sealed up the bore . As such the only way the air can escape is around the card . Thus when loading that card having it have a pin hole or a small slit , helps greatly or simp;ly push down , hold , push down hold ........ tel the card seats to the load

When checking to see if a load has become unseated or not , all you have to do is place the rr down the bore and once its in contact with the load , push down . Or smartly thumb the load a couple times .

Another thing that helps it to mark you RR .
If you really get into smoothbore fowling , you will find that just like modern shotgun shells , you will have loads that you find better for any given type of fowl .

As such you mark you RR for that load .
Myself I have two marks . one for turkey and geese where I use 2 and 4.
Then another that I use for pheasants , grouse and such where im using #7�s
Buy those marks I can tell if my load has moved , without pushing or thumping the load .
Simply slide the rr down the bore . If the mark lines with the muzzle im good to go . If its above the muzzle , then I no the load has drifted .

As to chokes .
Chokes on muzzleloaders are an interesting thing and create their own issues of loading in that softer cards must be used so as to slip by the choke during loading � excluding the jug type of choke which is an over bore choke .
But on the other hand unlike cartridges , chokes aren�t really needed with muzzleloading .
See with a cartridge you have only X amount of space for you load . That space has to be filled . This means either you have to use less of something in order to get more of something else . as such there is only so many combination one can use .
that�s not the case with muzzleloading .
As such the starting rule is that you begin with equal parts powder to shot .
But if you want a tighter pattern , you reduce the amount of powder to the amount of shot .
If your group is to tight , you can change to more powder then shot . This will blow the pattern open more .
so if you spend some time playing with different load combinations , you can actual find a point where you can get a full choke pattern at 30 yards �IE 1 to 1, 30 inches at 30 yards � even out of a cylinder bore . With some work you can even get tighter then that by doing some experimentation with different cup designs . IE cups designed to open up less even not at all
See just like shooting a bullet , each component of your load will have a result on the pattern.
Also just like rifle shooting , each barrel has its own likes .
Case in point . My early English fowler �20 gage � for some reason doesn�t like a full cushion . But if I load � oz of #7 over 1 over the powder card dry , then a second one wet with spit , all on top of 70 grains of 3 F , she with hold a good 30 inch pattern at 30 yards with 70% penetration through a 1/4 inch thick pies of plywood
But my SXS 20 gage flintlock doesn�t like that load . To get comparable results I have to add a soft wad , go down to 60 grains of 3F .
Neither like shot cups . Either plastic or paper and I have tried many different types . Im sure there is one out there . I just have not found the right combination for them yet

So just like with a rifle load , there is no X load will result in X group . Only starting points to work from .

if your interested i can post some links to give you more info on loading you shotgun .
i also have a couple old 1920-30 articals on hand loads that i can send you on PDF if you like

I have a Pedersoli 12 SXS that has a chrome lined bore for steel, and screw in chokes. I haven't used any steel in it yet, but can tell you that you can't load plastic cups through the chokes. So, I'd probably avoid them in a hunting situation, unless you expect to have lots of time to reload and reinsert the chokes.

My advice, for what it's worth, would be to load a loose non-toxic down bore without cups. I've found that my patterns do not suffer by doing away with the commonly used over powder card. It's too stiff to push through a full-choked gun. So, I load the powder, and then push two over/shot cards over the powder. They are thinner and can be bent and pushed through the chokes. Two of them per barrel work well and cut down on the different components you have to carry around in the woods...or in the duck blind.

After that, I load a 1/4" lubed cushion wad which can be pushed thorugh a choke by bending slightly, my shot charge and a final over/shot card. This load has a tight enough pattern to take a ton of squirrel so it has to be tight enough for larger animals with the proper shot size.

Regards

Dan

Great info Capt and Dan.

Being a novice to muzzleloading shotguns I need as much info as possible, if you had some links I'll take them.

I haven't picked up a shotgun yet and wanted to get some info before doing so, interesting how you don't need the choke Capt, never would have realized without your input me being a modern shotgunner.

Again appreciate the help

yep , what Dan states is true .
the over powder cards are often very hard and wont easly go though a full choke . BUT if you split them they will go past . so in a since you will use 2 or 4 over the powder cards by splittin 1 or 2 full cards
im not much for chokes unless they are jug chokes for the very reason Dan mentions .
again though , they will do the same thing as with a centerfire . but as i said you can do that without a choke as well

here is a couple links to help you out
Black Powder Shotgun basics

The Versatile Smoothbore

ok , here are some loads for ya for a 12 gage
all these are for goex 2F
1oz , 71/2 lead shot
2), over powder cards
1), 1/2 fiber cushion

1 oz shot
75 grains powder . MV =1090 PSI -1200
80 grains Mv 1160 PSI 1500

11/8 oz shot
75 grains = MV950 PSI = 2700
80- grains = mv 980 PSI-2900

11/4 oz shot #4
75 grains MV =840 PSI=220
80 grains MV 900 PSI 3000

11/2 oz #4
75 grain MV-not listed , PSI not listed
80 grains MV =800 PSI 3600

1 oz #2 steel
75 grains MV =980 , PSI=2700
80 grains MV=1000, PSI 3000

1 1/8 shot #2 steel
75 grains MV = 960 , PSI 3700
80 grains MV=1030 PSI=4400

11/4 oz #2 steel
75 grains MV=830 PSI=2100
80 grains MV=890 PSI 2100

1 1/2 oz #2 steel
75 grains MV not listed PSI not listed
80 grains mv =780 PSI 2400

round ball load for cylinder bore
70 grains FF, .690 rb, 494 gr = FPS 794 ME 693 ,PSI 3000, FPS @100 - 683 ft lbs @ 100 = 512
80 grains MV 881 ME=852 ,PSI 3300 ,fps100 750 , Ftlbs @100= 617
90 grains MV=962, ME=1015, PSI= 3700 Fps100= 805 Ftlbs100 =710
100 grains MV =1043 , ME=1194, Psi= $100 Fps100= 850, ftlbs100=792

hope that helps ya

Well good lard oh mighttey

Did some hunting on upland game, woodcock, and had a fine time with equal powder ffg volume and lead 7 1/2 size 1 and 1/8 oz loads.

Gave some great patterns on cardboard before heading out and definately kills those little soft targets in heavy cover.

Read links by captchee above and soaked 1/2 inch fiber in crisco, shot about 3 shots per barrel and had no problem with ramming another round in, shot 50% on bird kill for limit which was much better percentage of those involved shoving shells in doubles.

Just lucky, definately, hooked, most definately, make you a better hunter, I'm thinking so.

well glad to hear you had a good time .
i have found through the years its a much more enjoyable way to go .
+ at the cost of shells now days ??!!!!
there is alot to learn about muzzleloaders even more so about shotguning
i do enjoy my SXS flintlocks .
though i must admitt a big long barrel flintlock fowling piece
is also a joy .

anyway 2 thumbs up to you and well done