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Ant264 Offline OP
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Went piggin the other day with me trusty bolt action in very heavy rainforest. Saw some boars but it made me realized that I need something quick and has heaps of whoop. Also if the bullet hits a leaf or twig it wont deflect to much. The max distance will be about 50 metres. I was learning towards the 44-40 as it has more hiting power than a 308 at that distance. I wont use a scope looking at williams peep sights. What do you guys think?


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.30-30

More power, more rifles/loads available in that chambering..

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Definately .30-30

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So if I used roughly 240grn flatnose projectiles in the 44-40, the good old 30-30 can still out perform it? I have no worries about getting a 30-30. I will reload either one.


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.30-30.

Load 170s, and carry on.




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Though, if you want something that has "heaps of whoop", look at a .45 Long Colt or .454 Casull in the Rossi 92 Puma.




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Originally Posted by Ant264
So if I used roughly 240grn flatnose projectiles in the 44-40, the good old 30-30 can still out perform it? I have no worries about getting a 30-30. I will reload either one.


I'd go with 30-30 as well, but I think our feelings over here may be colored by where we live. The 44-40 over here is more popular than it was twenty years ago, due to cowboy action shooting. It is still not popular enough to be carried by Wal Mart. Whether WM, our largest retailer, carries a round is the way I and many other people measure whether it is a popular round. WM carries what sells. Still, you can get it other places and any well-stocked gun shop will have it. The 30-30 is overwhelmingly popular in America. It is so much so that even though I'm set up to reload for it, I don't. The ammo is plentiful and relatively cheap. It also doesn't benefit from handloading much, ballistically speaking. The 44-40 does, as most of today's 44-40 rounds are cowboy action loads, which are tailored for targets and quick aquisition of same. They are underpowered. Also, we have many old and weak guns that shoot it and that is another reason.

If the 44-40 is still popular in Australia, I see no reason why it couldn't be a good hog round too. With proper handloading, it rivals the 44 Mag. in performance, and I'm sure lots of people here would carry a 44 Mag. hog-hunting. All in all though, unless you are willing to buy a good gun and handload to top levels, the 30-30 will surpass it. The 44-40 is also not an easy round to handload. The cases are delicate and easily crushed. This is about the only advantage over the Magnum other than availability of both guns and ammunition.

I have both. I also have some 44-40 I handloaded about twenty years ago that runs about 1100 fps with a hardcast lead 210 grain SWC over a copper gas-check.

One more thing about the 44-40, there are currently no carbide dies for it. Of course there are none for the 30-30 either.

Another option could be the 44 Magnum. Over here, the guns for it are a bit more available. Marlin, for instance, has made sporadic runs of modern 44-40 carbines, but has made a Magnum ever since I have been a shooter. The 44-40 carbines tend to be in expensive, complicated, old actions that are too weak for the good stuff. The '92 action is an exception and is available in several guns here in 44-40. But the same is available in the Magnum cartridge too.

To answer your last question though, the 30-30 will always outperform the 44-40. At really close ranges, and loaded to its maximum potential, the 44-40 might be better against hogs. I'm talking loads at least as hot as I mentioned in my last post. Loads on a par with the 44 Magnum. "Might" being the operant term here.

Another thing about the 44-40 is that you will have to determine what bullet your rifle digests best. Older guns will take a .426 to .428 bullet. Newer ones do too OR sometimes will do best with a .428 to .430 diameter slug. Reason being they are trying to standardize with the .44 Mag. which takes the latter. Also, the .44 Mag. generally is utilized with a heavier bullet than the 44-40. 44-40's are typically around 200 grains as compared to the Magnum's 250. Not that you can't handload heavier bullets in the 44-40. All in all, you can see that over here, sometimes the 44-40 is just not worth the effort when you've got the .44 Mag. I like the 44-40 too, but that's my opinion.

Good luck!

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Definitely the 30.30. If I were to use a pistol cartridge it would be the 45 LC because of the ease of loading. A friend has the Rossi in the .45 LC and with stiff hand loads it is impressive on deer. He's going to Johnston county next weekend for pork and is taking it. I will try to revisit this and let you know how it performed.


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I'm not much on rifles with handgun cartridges or handguns with rifle cartridges. If I were hog hunting, my handgun cartridges would be in a gun on my hip and my lever rifle would be a .30-30, .32Win, .35Rem, or a .45-70, probably my 18" Guide Gun. I have a 16" Win 94 Wrangler in .32Win. I replaced the hoop lever with a standard lever. It is short and quick and lots more gun in my opinion than a 16" Trapper in handgun calibers. Good luck.

Big boars probably take big medicine, but I have a .223 auto Ruger Ranch rifle in SS that I plan to take hog hunting some day.

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I saw a domestic pig shot with a .44 Mag. This hog was shot because he was sick to the point of dying and the owner didn't want him infecting the whole herd of swine. The danged thing ran all over the place, all up amongst the other pigs and was shooting out blood like it was going out of style, squealin' to beat the band. All my buddy who shot him could do was stand there slack-jawed and watch as he thought the mighty .44 was like unto the hammer of Thor and should've smited the sickly porker where he stood. The farmer who owned the animal grabbed the .44 away whilst cussin' and ran up on the pig and shot him in the head, ending the melee. I guess I'm cold-blooded, but even though I had my own revolver holstered at my side, all I could do was lmao. The guy had shot him up behind the shoulder, like you would a deer, if you wanted the deer to run 50 yards into the woods and then lay down and die where you couldn't find it! Anyway, regardless of caliber, I'm a big believer in head shots on a hog and neck shots on deers.

Sorry. Y'all would've had to have been there.

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"the 44-40 as it has more hiting power than a 308 at that distance".

Hummmm!! you sure about that? :-)

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Originally Posted by Mike1894
"the 44-40 as it has more hiting power than a 308 at that distance".

Hummmm!! you sure about that? :-)


Wtf? I read back through my posts and don't see where I said that. Please edit your post accordingly as you are attributing something to somebody who didn't say it.

In fact, I may be mistaken, but a quick perusal of the other posts on this thread didn't turn up anybody having said that.

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Originally Posted by Ant264
Went piggin the other day with me trusty bolt action in very heavy rainforest. Saw some boars but it made me realized that I need something quick and has heaps of whoop. Also if the bullet hits a leaf or twig it wont deflect to much. The max distance will be about 50 metres. I was learning towards the 44-40 as it has more hiting power than a 308 at that distance. I wont use a scope looking at williams peep sights. What do you guys think?


ColeYounger, he probably was not answering you. Most likely he used the Quick Reply, and it will address the post to whomever was the last person to post, I.E., you this time. I am assuming he was referring to the statement above.

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Sorry guys! That was what I was told! As I used to have a 308 I really cant see a 44-40 coming even close. Please I am deeply sorry and take that back! Cant trust these Aussies!
Looks like the 30-30 is the way togo. I probaly go for the carbine version if they have one.
ColeYounger you gave me some VERY good advice and I thank you for putting so much time into this subject.
Thanks to everyone in this subject!


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Originally Posted by Ant264
Sorry guys! That was what I was told! As I used to have a 308 I really cant see a 44-40 coming even close. Please I am deeply sorry and take that back! Cant trust these Aussies!
Looks like the 30-30 is the way togo. I probaly go for the carbine version if they have one.
ColeYounger you gave me some VERY good advice and I thank you for putting so much time into this subject.
Thanks to everyone in this subject!


Bwaaa...don't nobody worry about it. I must've been wrapped too tight today. Neither a 30-30 nor a 44-40 will come close to the .308 WCF. Both are generally chambered in lighter, faster-handling carbines though, unless it's legal to have a .308 AR-10 type weapon over there. Those can get pretty pricey pretty quickly too. I think all three calibers would be excellent for hawgs. The .308 certainly will handle stuff at much longer distances but that point is probably moot with hog hunting.

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Originally Posted by Vic_in_Va
Originally Posted by Ant264
Went piggin the other day with me trusty bolt action in very heavy rainforest. Saw some boars but it made me realized that I need something quick and has heaps of whoop. Also if the bullet hits a leaf or twig it wont deflect to much. The max distance will be about 50 metres. I was learning towards the 44-40 as it has more hiting power than a 308 at that distance. I wont use a scope looking at williams peep sights. What do you guys think?


ColeYounger, he probably was not answering you. Most likely he used the Quick Reply, and it will address the post to whomever was the last person to post, I.E., you this time. I am assuming he was referring to the statement above.


Vic, I'm watching King of the Hill on the teevee right now. You sound like John Redcorn. You ever been to Arlen, Texas?

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No, I sure haven't.

Texas is a big place, and I've driven through, on the way back to the east coast, but never stopped. I'll have to fix that one day.

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I have experience with model 94s in both the 30 WCF and the 44 WCF. Both are admirably "field accurate". What this means is that while they might not shoot tiny groups at 200 yards, they hit what you aim at, and are capable of precise shot placement in the field.
I cannot recommend any factory 44 WCF load for your chosen prey, with the possible exception of the Winchester super X 200 JSP. Before I relied on this load, I would test for sure both its penetration and expansion. My own experience with this load is years down the road, and it is always important to know how current production ammo will work.
Most 44 WCF shooters are interested purely in hitting targets. Nothing wrong with that, just that I only know of two others besides me who rely on the old 44 in the back country, and one of them recently got shipped off to a retirement home by his kids. I guess what I'm saying is that the 44 WCF is not exactly a household name any more.
The main thing to remember, if you choose the old 44, is that you are relying on accuracy, not on power. The 44 WCF is a poor second to the 44 magnum.
That said, its no great shakes to make a water jug dance at 70+ yards with a either a SAA or a 94, off hand. The old 44 is inherently accurate.
I hesitate to offer a hog load, because I have no clue what hogs in Australia are like, but a standard 44 WCF working load= a 200+ grain cast semi-wadcutter, stoked over 8.0 grains of unique to start. I would want the bullet to be no more than 16 BHN. This should net a velocity of 1400-1500 fps from the 20' carbine barrel. It is possible to develop + P loads in the 44, but much anything over 1700 fps and you start to go through brass quite quickly. 44 WCF brass is thin, in order to work at modest pressures and expand and seal the chamber, which it does just fine. Unfortunately, no one to my knowledge offers heavy 44 WCF brass, not even Starline, which is probably the best 44 WCF brass available today.
Frankly, the 44 WCF is a cartridge that is best suited to those willing to pick their shots, rather than those who want to hurl the Hammer of Thor.
Unless I was willing to spend the time and resources developing a quality working load, I would choose the simple alternative of the 30 WCF.

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Mark that was great. The only experience I have with a 44-40 is shooting roos at close range and afew crows. When I shot the roos the power of that 44 was just amazing,it had a exit hole the size of my fist. Yes accurarcy is not great but if I think I cant hit it then no shot will be taken.
If I can find the loads I will post them. Also the terrain that I shot the pigs in is very dense,I CANT afford to rush a shot and hit it,wound it, Cause I will never find it again.
Thanks again! Feel free to stay in touch. The responses I have recieved are far better than I ever thought, Thanks to you aand everyone who replied.


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Originally Posted by Mak
I have experience with model 94s in both the 30 WCF and the 44 WCF.


I have never seen a model 94 in 44 WCF.....not trying to be a smart azz...but Ive handled a LOT of guns, and just not that one.....

Educate me please....

Ingwe


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Winchester chambered the 44 WCF in the 94 Carbine for two or three years in the 70's. They also had a special run that they partnered with Colt to produce, a boxed set, 44 WCF SAA and the 94 in 44 WCF, I believe in 1976. Both were engraved with gold inlay. My personal experience is with the more workman like standard carbine.
Other than the abbreviated loading gate, and the shorter throw of the lever, the 44 looks and handles almost exactly like a standard carbine in 30 WCF. 10 44 rounds weigh more than 6 30's, so the gun is a tad heavier when full.
I don't know how many Winchester made, so I couldn't hazard to guess how many are still around, but it is true that they certainly are less than common.

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Thanks man..I figured it was something like that...
I used to shoot their first run ( about 1967 IIRC) of 94 in .44 mag so I knew they could do a shorty in the '94....

Second time today Ive learned something new on the 'fire!

And they say you can't teach an old dog...

Ingwe


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Originally Posted by Ant264
Mark that was great. The only experience I have with a 44-40 is shooting roos at close range and afew crows. When I shot the roos the power of that 44 was just amazing,it had a exit hole the size of my fist. Yes accurarcy is not great but if I think I cant hit it then no shot will be taken.
If I can find the loads I will post them. Also the terrain that I shot the pigs in is very dense,I CANT afford to rush a shot and hit it,wound it, Cause I will never find it again.
Thanks again! Feel free to stay in touch. The responses I have recieved are far better than I ever thought, Thanks to you aand everyone who replied.


You've shot Kangaroos with the .44? How is a Kangaroo? I mean, how tough are they? Have you ever shot anything that compared to our Whitetail Deers? If so, how does a "roo" compare to that game animal? The only Kangaroos I am familiar with are at the zoo or on that one show where the Kangaroo is beating the shixt out of all the bad guys.

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What do you do with a roo? Do you eat 'em or just feed 'em to the dogs?

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I would like to shoot a Kangaroo. I could kill me some Dingo's too.

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Hey guys! ok I have never shot a deer. (poor bambi lol) Kangaroos are in my opion a soft skin animal. They are not too hard to kill, but in saying that they can get quite big eg big red roos easy over 6ft and very very soild. Skippy the grey kangaroo on the TV show is the average size for a grey roo. Some pro roo shooters sell the roos for meat and for their skins. I just leave them where they fall so pigs come to eat the roos and I wait to kill pigs. I have shot roos with my 22lr. Either a head shot or in the chest. Chest is first option. I personally think unless you are a good shot I wouldnt use anything under a 222.
They are a wonderful animal. I dont shoot them any more. No sport in that. I just stick to feral pests now. But they are nice to eat in meat pies. Not sure if I could eat a croc though!
Dingoes 9 times out of 10 you wont even see them. They are very smart and cunning. I will never shoot pure dingoes,I am not a sook but I do respect them alot. Some people have them as pets, but they are a truely one man dog. If you are after a dog with alittle dingo then get a Blue Cattle Dog or a Red One. They are very very smart. Real cattle dogs howl like a dingo, and if you are noy used to it they can scare the crap out of your friends. I have agreat story if you want to hear it.
Hope I have answered all your questions.
Thanks


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Definately .30-30. Based on versatility alone!

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Very interesting. Yep, I wanna hear the story. Tell it... grin

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I'd heard of Kangaroo Chili before, but had forgot about it. Some folks hereabouts eat possums too.

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Oh, ok then, Story time. My mate (Kev) and I went out one nite. We had a few drinks so Kev asked if he could stay over,yeah mate no worries! You can sleep on the couch in my room, yep algood kev replies. Now my dog Esky is a pure blue cattle dog,a true one man dog. Very very clever,doesn't like her routine getting inter-rupted. I couldnt even sneak girls home at nite cause she would bail them up at the front gate. Even when I locked her outside she would paw at the door and start crying. So if I let her in side she would do a big grrrr and I would have to call a taxi for the girl.
Anyway we are both asleep Im in my bed with me dog poor Kev on the couch, the dog hears a noise out side,she starts to howl like a wild dingo. The dog bolts outside,meanwhile poor Kev screams and says"f***! I will just climb down now off the ceiling! If that dog only just barked like a normal dog it would of been ok! Now I have to change me pants. Dog walks in like nothing has happened,poor Kev just laid there shaking for half a hour.
Not sure if you guys have heard a dingo go off before. Just picture a wolf howling aggressively. Dam that was funny.
Rest in piece Esky!
Thanks guys!!!

Last edited by Ant264; 11/30/09. Reason: spelling error

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Not to sure if I could eat a possom! I know the kiwis (New Zealanders) do. Wouldnt be that much meat on them would there?


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Originally Posted by Ant264
Not to sure if I could eat a possom! I know the kiwis (New Zealanders) do. Wouldnt be that much meat on them would there?


Know lots of folks who have, but I've never 'et one. I'll hafta ask. I've ate raccoon before, but never a possum. They are greasy critters, that is certain-shore. Thanks for the story.

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I have shot enough deer with my grampas 44-40 and 38-40 to believe you would be hard pressed to find a worse deer caliber..they work OK up close and with perfect shot placement, especially if your a good tracker...

I would much prefer the 30-30 and its alway worked well for me on deer and elk in my youth, that was when everyone used 25-35s and 30-30 and all of those old men were glad to get shut of the 38 and 44s...Most of those old hunters actually prefered the 30-30 to the 45-70 and the 99 Savage in 300 Savage was the magnum of the day and the 250 was a great elk and deer cartridge! smile my how things have changed.

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Not for me. I'd prefer any of those cartridges to the 45-70, which I've shot extensively. Why use a hard-kicking SOB for a little Whitetail or even a big one or a Muley?

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Ant264

Are you refering to the 444 and not the 44-40. Winchester made the 94 in the 444 for a few years calling it the Timber Carbine. You could load 300g or better in that as long as they would function in the action. I imagine that would be a big pig stomper.

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Originally Posted by Just a Hunter
Ant264

Are you refering to the 444 and not the 44-40. Winchester made the 94 in the 444 for a few years calling it the Timber Carbine. You could load 300g or better in that as long as they would function in the action. I imagine that would be a big pig stomper.


Now that cartridge is a whole 'nother ball game than the 44-40.

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No just the good old 44-40. I really thought it performed better than what I have read. Looks like the 30-30 lever is the way togo. I guess theres no real difference in a angle eject model to the standard model as no scope will be fitted.


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Sounds like you have a good plan. A .30-30 carbine with a receiver sight is a fast handling little rig, and has plenty of punch for up-close hog work.

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Originally Posted by Ant264
No just the good old 44-40. I really thought it performed better than what I have read. Looks like the 30-30 lever is the way togo. I guess theres no real difference in a angle eject model to the standard model as no scope will be fitted.


OK. Just checking. A friend used an original 1873 Winchester on hogs in California some years ago with no complaints.

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No thats ok,if I didnt post this thread I would of bought the 44-40. But thanks to everyones professional advice the 30-30is the way to go.
Thinking about williams peep sights. Any thoughts?
If anyone of you guys are comin to Australia/Queensland please let me know.


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I presently use two levers quite often, one an M94 in .30-30, the second a Guide Gun in .45-70. I have both outfitted with Williams FP sights, but not the firesight front. I am afraid they (the firesight) would be too fragile, but the rear sight is very capable of taking rough handling.

There are two advantages, for me, to using the receiver sight. One is that I can see with it better (less target covered, suits my eyes, etc.), and the second is that on both rifles the increase in sight radius helped reduce the group size to where I am very confident of both rifles' accuracy if used within their capabilities.

I have experience with the Williams, but keep in mind there are other brands that you may like better, such as the Skinner. A good receiver sight is a worthy upgrade.


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I think Winchester had/has done up a few runs of 44 WCF (.44/40s) in the Model 94s, JUST FOR THE AUSTRALIAN MARKET, and not in the distant past, either, but in the last twenty years or so. I've read about them elsewhere.

I think that Australia is second only to the US for loving leverguns, they just didn't "take" outside the US, except for Australia. Maybe some in Latin America, but very few elsewhere in the world.


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I have just read that Winchester has stopped making the lever action. The only one they are going to make next year is going to be a collector's edition. Have you guys heard of that?


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Originally Posted by Ant264
I have just read that Winchester has stopped making the lever action. The only one they are going to make next year is going to be a collector's edition. Have you guys heard of that?



That's the case, yes. There should be plenty of used ones down in Oz, though, so you wouldn't have to do without one, if you want one. OR, get a Marlin, still in production, in quantity, and they have several excellent attributes.


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In the early 80's Dad had a M94 that he bought cheaply. He had an Uberti .44-40 at the time, and learned that original Win parts to convert a M94 were available. He was able to make the conversion, and it seemed to work fine. I haven't seen the rifle in a long time, think my brother wound up with it.


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Yeah I was after a new Win lever. I cant believe that Winchester cant get there act together and start producing awide range of rifles like they USED to. Very poor! What are marlins like? I have no idea!
I heard that Winchester went broke?


Our F1-11 gets retired this week. What a shame.
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The 44/40 is just about the same as the 45 colt ,just necked down to 429 cal,but with the thin neck seals better when shot!

The 45 colt has a hard brass case that doesn;t form to the chamber,and you get dirty gas blow back that just gets AR/15 dirty!

I like a 92 in 45colt (and the 255 grain to 300 bufaloe bore)make the 45 colt harder hitting with effort!

The 30/30 Win is the standard all others have had to reach up to,
and is the king of the hill!


Bob

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Yep still looking for a new win 94 30-30! not happy!


Our F1-11 gets retired this week. What a shame.
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Originally Posted by Ant264
Yep still looking for a new win 94 30-30! not happy!


You'll probably remain that way. Winchester stopped producing anything about three years ago. Supposedly, they're producing some stuff again under some sort of reorganization. I don't know if that includes '94s or not.

Personally, I'd much rather have an older one anyway. You don't have a superfluous safety on them. If you get one made before 1964, they are of better quality too.

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Winchester is now owned by FN, the Belgian firm famous for the Hi Power, and its solid reputation in military small arms.
The Old Winchester plant was closed down by FN. FN complained of quality control problems, but they refused to update the machinery, and did little to nothing to improve and streamline production.
Today, all the Winchester leverguns that bear the Winchester name are manufactured in FN's Japanese factory. This includes the new re-released model 94. In reality, these are different rifles than the American examples. Their English measurements have been changed to metric, which means that some parts have been redesigned. Stock dimensions can also vary from the originals. Still, this is as close as we can get to newly made Winchester leverguns.
The good news in all this is that the Japanese made Winchesters are actually fine rifles. I have had the pleasure of looking over at least a dozen over the decades, and they all feature excellent fit and finish, and while their triggers and actions are not as good as American made examples, they do work well, and go bang when fired.
The bad news is that these are all limited production items, which makes them difficult to find, and they carry a premium price tag. Locally, the only way to get ahold of some of these guns is to place a special order, and hope it can get filled.
Taffin recently wrote a review of the new re-released 94 in GUNS magazine. He found the gun to be extremely accurate, and the full rifle barrel added a couple hundred fps. over factory listed velocity. If you can scrape up the funds, and don't mind that its made an ocean away, it sure seems to be a nice 30 WCF.
On the other hand, it might be that much better to get a hold of a model 64 Deer Rifle, and take to the woods in grand tradition.

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Just a few comments to the original posts..first of all none of these calibers has the thump of a .308, not even close. The .308 is much more potent under all conditions than a 44-40, 44 mag. or 30-30..that's just the way it is.

Also the 44-40 is a model 92, the 30-30 is a mod. 94..

If you want a lever action win. the 30-30 is the best by far than any 44 for killing hogs or deer or anything else for that matter..but the .308 in a lever action such as the Savage 99 or Browning BLR would be about twice as effective.

The 38-40 and the 44-40, even at short range with rather stiff handloads are still not the best of killers on game..They found that out with the advent of the 30-30, 25-35 and 32 Special, they voided the sales on the the 38-40 and 44-40...In my very early youth we used the 38-40 and 44-40 on our ranch Mule Deer and Del Carmen whitetail and lots of problems occurred. It was whole different ball game when we got 30-30s, 25-35s and 250-3000s and an uncle had the early day magnum a 300 Savage! smile wow!

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Hi Ant264,

I hunt wild boars in France and Europe for long years now and i understant, as my discussions with Mick Matheson confirmed, that your hogs are a bit different as ours. But they both are tough animals. I understand you'll be hunting them in some bush and cover as i do when driving dogs in driven hunts. For that job i once used 44Mag in Browning 92 and Ruger semi auto, 30-30 in 94 standard. Both killed, i used handloads with 270grs Speer GD for the 92, 250grs Partition for the Ruger and 170grs Partition for the 30-30 at max velocity. At short range the 44Mad seemed to be better stopper but that's no science. Generally i double sometime triple the shoot cause in thick brush and animals running they were not always well placed, heaviest one was more than 225lbs. For such game the 44WCF seem a bit weak but can do. Now i often use more powerful rifles, one 7600 carbine in 35Whelen, a KR1 Merkel in 9,3x62 or my favorite 86 Winchester lighweight in 45-70 handloaded hot with 405grs bullets and heavy load of VN133.
If you have only choice between 30-30 and 44-40 better go to the 30-30. 170grs bullets seem to have enough penetration and enough expansion at short range. Note that i'm used to dispatch some boars, wounded or not, with my Cold Steel Trail Master when blocked by dogs and dangerous for them to use rifle. Can be "interesting" sometimes
Regards from down under.
Dominique



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