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I guess I am just not focused for some of you guys? I have hunting loads of Sierra Pro Hunters, Game Kings, Match Kings (Oh My), Nosler Accubonds, Barnes TSX, Hornady SST's and Berger Hunting VLD's. I have just started shooting the Bergers in my 7STW and have killed hogs from 40 Yards out to 250 yards and a mule deer last weekend at 200 yards. One 255 pound boar shot at 40 yards had no blood trail but I had to track 0 feet. Bullet went into neck in front of shoulder and the inside was total devastation, all other hogs died right there except one that I hit in the hip, it died with one behind its ear just inside the brush line it was heading into. The mule deer was a walking away shot that entered in behind last rib and ended up tearing up 80 % of the heart and most of one lung 20 + inch of penetration. Deer still ran about 70 yards and piled up.

I guess if any of the Sierras or Nosler or Hornady's had not exited they would have been bullet failures as well even though I recovered each animal that I shot with them? Oh wait several of them did not exit, crap.



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Originally Posted by Iraklion
......... but personally speaking I do completely understand how they wortk I just not like how they work. I just like a stouter bullet. Just airing my opinion like I suspect others are doing.


Don't know how old Iraklion is but those of us old enough can remember O'Connor's writings about 120 gr Barnes bullets at 3200 fps (made from lead and copper tubing)in the 270 being an absolute bomb on the little Coues deer he used to hunt,due to very rapid expansion in the chest cavity.I still remember illustrations in his books showing "good bullet performance" as the bullet mushrooming completely within the chest cavity and stopping against off-side hide for complete "energy release". When Fred Barnes went to more brittle bullet materials the 120's did not work so well,and O'Connor stopped using them.I suspect he started traveling widely and the old 270 now got used on everything from dorcas gazelle's to elk and gemsbuck,and grizzlies, and the tougher Nosler Partition got his stamp of approval.....

But there were also lots of complaints about bullets that only made it into the chest cavity and then came unglued,too;mostly as a result of increasing velocities,like when you shoved those lightly constructed bullets into elk bones at high velocity and things did not turn out so well.....

Those of us raised on a steady diet of guys like Page and Hagel,who advocated high velocity AND stouter bullet construction were "taught" that "good" bullets retained weight;that they mushroomed but still retained enough integrity to at least make the off-side of a game animal from tough angles,and did this under the somewhat contradictory conditions of long range/low velocity,or close range/high impact velocity.Weight retention was a holy grail,but not because weight retention in and of itself was the indicator of killing power,but simply because common sense told us a bullet that stayed in one piece had a better chance of penetrating effectively enough,and had the integrity to smash up bone on heavier animals. And bullets that did the same thing,every time,regardless of distance or shot angle,came to be valued.This gave us things like the Partition, BBC,Swift, TBBC,X,and Ultrabonded,etc......many of these bullets have very slightly different expansion characteristics, frontal areas,levels of retained weight and somewhat different penetrating abilities,but generally the theme is the same for all of them.

So, many of us were (are) not content,and a might uncomfortable, with the concept of a bullet that penetrates but a short distance(3") before it self destructs,even though it seems to work,and may drill bone before doing so.We (at least I) can't get my head around a bullet that goes in 3" before the jacket starts tearing apart and rupturing to shrapnel because I can't imagine that tiny pieces of guilding metal flying in random directions from the wound channel can be as deadly and destructive as the broad mushrooming of the bullet itself....(if this were so, why has the concept not been carried forward in heavy calibers for stuff like Cape Buffalo,and other larger heavy game?....think about it.....

.....and I have often thought that ,if you could get a BT,for example,to have that taffy-type,gummy construction that helps it maintain a broad frontal area after early expansion in a fragile deer,,it would be quite as deadly,and maybe even more so,than the brittle guilding metal/alloy cores that fly to pieces after high velocity impact.In other words, I have long felt that it's the rapid expansion to a broad frontal area,and not the tiny flying fragments, that do the bulk of the damage,and that give the BT its' deadly reputation as a killer of deer sized game,simply because a big chunk of bullet flying through vitals does more damage than tiny ones.Another example of this is the reputation that the light TSSX at very high velocity is getting for dramatic kills and extensive tissue disruption.I have seen the same thing over the years from BBC's at close range/high velocity where there is absolutely no fragmentation whatsoever;yet the kills have been as dramatic as anything a BT or VLD could produce on their best days.I think fragmentation is a "Red Herring",or Trojan Horse of bullet performance.

It is not hard to visualize how the VLD's work;but a question unanswered to me is what happens if that dramatic upset occurs 3" past the last rib of that bull elk taht you find and shoot in north slope timber at 50-60 yards,where the bullet may have to get through parts of a grass-filled paunch in order to reach vitals,and has already "blown its' cookies" in the paunch,and lacks the integrity to bust through a bit of paunch and diaphragm into vitals that must be deestroyed to get a quick kill;where impact velocity is at 3000 fps,even though that same bullet(same day) might handle that same shot angle at 2000 fps impact velocity across a canyon.I emphasize "might"......I have my doubts.

I (and others like Iraklion,and MM, I suspect),are more used to the consistent and uniform results of things like Partitions that pretty much do the same things at 350 yards that they do at 35 yards in the timber,and if the BC's of such bullets are insufficient to allow for shots beyond 500 yards so be it;I will gladly leave that part of the performance equation on the table because (a)I don't need an elk that badly,and (b)I don't belong to the "if I can see it,I can hit it" faction. I know from my own experience that a Nosler Partition at 450-500 yards does not make a good day for a bull elk;and if I run into him at 60 yards in the timber,I have a bullet that will handle that situation as well.YMMV.

I wish the VLD's boys all the best,but they aren't for me! wink smile




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"It is not hard to visualize how the VLD's work;but a question unanswered to me is what happens if that dramatic upset occurs 3" past the last rib of that bull elk taht you find and shoot in north slope timber at 50-60 yards,where the bullet may have to get through parts of a grass-filled paunch in order to reach vitals,and has already "blown its' cookies" in the paunch,and lacks the integrity to bust through a bit of paunch and diaphragm into vitals that must be deestroyed to get a quick kill;where impact velocity is at 3000 fps,even though that same bullet(same day) might handle that same shot angle at 2000 fps impact velocity across a canyon.I emphasize "might"......I have my doubts."

Yup. I like these VLD's for my purposes, which is hunting open-country mule deer, along with coyotes.

First started using Nosler Partitions back in the 1970's, and still believe strongly in them. For elk, when a timber shot or a "raking" shot might be necessary, I'd rather have a good heavy partition, like the 7mm 175 Nosler Partition or the 180 or 200 gr .30 cal Partition. I've also used the Barnes TSX, with excellent results.

Not wedded to the VLD, but I do see the bullet as quite useful for hunting open-country deer-sized game.

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Guy: Looks like they certainly kill deer! smile




The 280 Remington is overbore.

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back to the original post, high lung shot, pencil sized exit with shrapnel in the neck, spine, and very little lung damage. Sounds to me like the deer was at quite and angle for the bullet to hit high lung/shoulder and angle into the neck..... sounds like poor placement more than poor bullet performance


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Bob,

The "shrapnel principle" (if we can call it that) has been proven on deer-sized game over and over again.

In fact, over the past few years RWS did a BUNCH of shooting of deer-sized game with various bullet designs in order to find one that would indeed put deer down quicker with typical heart-lung shots, because so much German and other European hunting is done on relatively small pieces of property. If a lung-shot deer gets across the property line to the neighbor's place, then it's the nieghbor's deer--and since the meat is commercially old over there this isn't a good thing. Neither is shooting up too much meat, the reason they prefer shooting deer behind the shoulder.

This is why RWS has bullets that are specifically designed for the front end to fragment, because they found that such bullets did kill deer quicker, especially with normal lung shots. Being German, they also design the front end of the bullet to PRECISELY fragment, as opposed to the more random fragmentation of many American deer bullets.

The vast mass of evidence put together by forensic scientists who study wound channels also strongly suggests that the volume of the wound channel is the biggest predictor of how quickly a bullet kills. Bullets that don't lose any weight (don't produce any shrapnel) create narrower wound channels.

This is exactly why the Nosler Partition was designed to lose the front third in "shrapnel." John Nosler was a very experienced hunter, and knew from shooting a lot of deer that bullets that fragmented at least partially usually killed deer quicker. But he also wanted a bullet that wouldn't come apart totally, and would go through a moose shoulder. Which is why the Partition's front end is made of some of the softest lead alloy used in the bullet-making business, and rear end of a much harder alloy.

It's also why when I hear somebody bitching about the front core of a Partition disappearing I know they don't understand how bullets work, especially Partitions.

I don't anybody on the Campfire (or anywhere else) has suggested using Berger VLD's on black-timber elk. I know I haven't, and in fact would advise strongly against it. They don't penetrate deeply enough. I am not even crazy bout using them on open-country elk, though I have used them (and seen them used) on open-country red stag that weighed around 400 pounds, and with great success.

From what I've seen, Berger VLD's are marvelous bullets for average "deer-sized" game. They punch through deer-sized bone and destroy the insides of the chest cavity. The ONLY times they haven't destroyed the inside of the chest is when they were placed around the edges, but even then if they do get into the chest cavity at all they destroy much more tissue than a "harder" bullet placed similarly.

Somehow, a lot of Americans have been sold the notion that there is indeed one perfect bullet design for shooting ALL big game, whether a 100-pound pronghorn or a 1500-pound moose. I simply don't believe that anymore, though probably the Nosler Partition comes as close to a reasonable compromise as anything.

For shooting deer-sized game one of the most popular bullets is the Hornady Interlock. It kills very well, but not just because it holds together better than some other cup-and-core bullets, but because it loses about half it's weight in "shrapnel". Or at least that is the average for the Interlocks I've recovered from various game animals.

The latest versions of the Ballistic Tip perform similarly, with the exception of some that have even more jacket because some people want to use them on heavier. This is exactly why so man people like the Ballistic Tip on deer. One of my friends owns a lot of land in South Carolina, and they cull a lot of deer off the place every year. After much experimenation, his favorite bullet is a Ballistic Tip at 3000+ fps. Why? "Because when we shoot a deer across a bean-field, when we go look for the deer there it is, right where we shot it."

I think it is true that the Barnes TSX is at its best when driven really fast, whether through the use of a lighter weight bullet or in a really fast cartridge. Eleen and I have taken a bunch of animals with the 100 TSX from the .257 Weatherby at 3500 fps, and often it kills quite spectacularly, even on animals shot behind the shoulder. That is, as long as it opens up, and sometimes one won't open. This appears to be far more common in really small diameter bullets, probably because the hollow-point is so small.

At any rate, however, I have not seen any advantage in shooting deer-sized animals with the TSX when the bullet is started at more normal velocities of under 3000 fps. In fact I would say it doesn't kill as quickly even on animals in the 500-pound class at sub-3000 muzzle velocities, one reason I prefer using bonded bullets of one sort or another, or the old Partition, when hunting game of that size. The TSX really shines on BIG animals, in the 1000-pound range, whether using 168's at high velocity from a .300 magnum or fatter bullets at slower velocities.

But I have seen it in use enough to not buy the notion that the TSX (or any other monolithic expander)is the be-all and end-all of bullets designs for all big game or all sizes. In fact, I do believe that many gun writers have sold us a bill of goods on the theme of deep-penetrating bullets that retain all or most of their weight. This is how "shrapnel" came to be a negative, when in truth for some big game shooting it's a very effective byproduct of bullet performance.

Somehow we've been convinced that an exit hole and little or no shrapnel is the secret to killing power, when that's not true at all. That is why RWS makes about 4-5 different kinds of bullets, and why other companies like Hornady and Nosler do as well.

Certainly when we're hunting a variety of game it's smart to use a bullet that will do the job on the biggest one, especially if we're hunting in thicker stuff where the angle of impact might have to go through a lot of animal. But in much hunting--especially in Norh America--we're looking for one animal. And since different bullets work differently, there are better designs for certain tasks. We don't expect one kind of shot to work for all kinds of bird hunting, or a sports car to do the same jobs as a 3/4 ton pickup. Yet somehow some hunters believe that one bullet will do it all better than any other bullet ever designed, and that is simply not true.



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Originally Posted by KDF
Here's an exit from a 168gr VLD from a 7RM. Doe antelope shot at about 150yds through both shoulders. No tracking or walking circles involved here.

This is pretty typical of the destruction I've seen from VLD's. I wish I had pictures to show of a couple of 75-100lb. hogs that I had shot with the same bullet a month or so before this antelope...extensive damage to put it mildly!

It's hard for me to comprehend a VLD creating a minimal exit wound and not doing some major damage in the boiler room. A bigger concern for me with the Bergers, is not being able to penetrate the shoulder of larger critters like elk.

Kevin

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This doesn't look like minimal meat loss to me grin








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Which is why I try to put 'em BEHIND the shoulder!


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I do not think the 168 grains really had anywhere else to go.

But it is dead....


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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Which is why I try to put 'em BEHIND the shoulder!


Point well taken!

This shot was taken off hand at a moving critter, so the shoulder looked like a nice target! Granted, the exit was a little more substantial than I expected, but it definately qualified as "DRT" by most anyones definition! smile

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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
I don't anybody on the Campfire (or anywhere else) has suggested using Berger VLD's on black-timber elk. I know I haven't, and in fact would advise strongly against it. They don't penetrate deeply enough.




Exactly, but in open country where bullet can be precisely placed they are extremely lethal



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You don't always get to pick where the deer or elk are gonna be so why not take something that will do the job near or far? Especially if you're on a DIY and have traveled to hunt. I killed 12 elk in 15 trips to the Big Horns and never shot an elk over 300 yards.
True, I never shot one that looked like those you see on the cover of the magazines but they looked good to me. smile I did shoot some dandy mulies though.
I'm not buying into the "bullet failure" post. I'm just posting on bullet selection in general. There are too many good hunting bullets out there to be field testing somebody's bullets for them or using a one diminsional bullet. These are living animals we're after.


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Pretty open country IMHO



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Partitions have been known to work in open country too.

460 yards, 270 Win, 150 gr. Partition.

2 steps & DRT, blew out lungs & exited with a 1 1/2" hole.

MM

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Originally Posted by MontanaMan
Partitions have been known to work in open country too.

460 yards, 270 WIn, 150 gr. Partition.

2 steps & DRT, blew out lungs & exited with a 1 1/2" hole.

MM

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So do TSX's


Took the Doe at 777 yards with 180 grain TSX

[Linked Image]



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I don't believe the VLD has been labeled a bullet for distance game taking. They have been working well at all ranges. My last WT over 200 pounds on the hoof was taken under 100 yards with the 168 grain VLD chrono'd at 3180. Bang/Flop.

I never had a single problem with a TTSX but the VLD's are much cheaper to shoot.

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Wow 40mm High explosive grenade launcher! grin

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Originally Posted by jwp475


So do TSX's


Took the Doe at 777 yards with 180 grain TSX

[Linked Image]


Well, that's a helluva shot, alright & longer than anything I've made, but why bother with a doe at that range?

Couldn't find a doe closer or just to be able to say you did it?

MM

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MontanaMan - that's one heck of a mulie you've posted! Congrats on that big boy!

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I was just goin' there as well!

Nice buck MM.....very nice....wink.

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