Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles Another Berger VLD failure !

Formid, thanks for the advice but I've already seen animals gut shot with such pearls as Sierra's, Hornady's, Partitions,and even Bitterroots(which I have used),as I have screwed up a time or two in my career,and have been on the scene when others have "screwed up" as well.And I can assure you that nothing in the way of sporting bullets is going to make amends for an errant shot behind the diaphragm,as you will have a mess on your hands with any of them,and no bullet that I know of will make the inevitable and ensuing tracking job any easier,nor will the results be so predictably certain as you claim.....

As a side note,and before I knew any better, I did instantly kill a pronghorn with a hit fully back of the diapragm due to a full value wind,years back;the buck was killed instantly but I won't tell you what type bullet because it would be completely contrary to your own theory.Based on that happening,I could say "no offense,you would be wrong".....

But that kill was an exception,and generally,with any bullet and a gut shot, you got a problem.So I think Jordan's statement on the issue is closer to the truth than yours;and all I did was agree with him......but thanks for your insight, which I am sure you believe to be true......I appreciate it......

+1 BobinNH...........

Match bullets, like varmint bullets, will kill if slipped into the lung heart area as they typically explode and make the innards mush.

The stupid question that I can never get answered is why use them?
Within ethical hunting parameters any premium hunting bullet will ALSO break big bones, let you shoot em up the butthole if that's all you have or break down something that wants to hurt you.
You shoot a big 6X6 up the butt with ANY Berger Bullet and he has a gut full of grass, what you will have is a lost but dead Elk. (After days of agony)
The same weight Partition, Barnes or Swift will keep on going into the vitals and probably not be recovered, what you will have is a dead Elk with a blood trail if needed.

So why bother to do the wrong thing?

I don't use the match VLD but do use their hunting VLD and it works as advertised. If you haven't tried it, don't comment on it's performance since you have no experience.Rick.

I can't believe I am posting to this thread, but I have hunted/hunt with the Bergers and love them. I started out with the SMK's and they also took game. So has my go to bullet the Reminton Corelock and my second choice the TSX. I have shot deer from 20ft in the backyard to 760yd's (my longest shot to date). I have also found that for what ever reason every bullet I have ever tried has "failed" at some point one time and the rest of the time - WOW big hole and bloody mess. I hunt with several cals from my 243 up to my 300win mag. I don't worry about the range out to about 400yds regardless of cal. I shoot the load that is the most accurate in any given gun and that's all. So there's my two cents for what it's worth which ain't much.

Do you realy believe that they are made differently?

They are a great long range bullet and by long range bullet very accurate with high BC values I mean farther than 500 yards

Thanks

I don't doubt that you typically might get shorter tracking jobs with animals that are hit in the guts with fragmenting bullets such as the A-Max or VLD, but to say that such a bullet ensures a short blood trail and corresponding tracking job is untrue, IMO.

Yes I believe they are different bullets since they have different BCs. Talked with Walt Berger at the Shot Show this past Feb, he confirmed it. Mule Deer was on the hunt with Walt Berger in New Zealand and has confirmed their performance. I don't use Sierra MKs since Sierra doesn't recommend that bullet for hunting but I have friends that kill deer with them every year.
For some posters there seems to be quite a resistance to the use of hunting VLDs. Opinions with no experience other than "I have a friend or have seen----". I have used them for the past three years on deer and hogs. Haven't had a single problem but I must admit that I will wait for my shot, no Texas heart shots, no poke and hope shots. I will pass on a shot if it is questionable in my mind. But the Bergers have taken deer and hogs from 20' to 300yds. Most are DRTs but I have had to trail a few about 50-75yds. I know they aren't a bullet for all occassions but that bullet isn't made. If I had to use just one bullet for all hunting, it would be a Nosler partition.Rick.

Two final thoughts:
1. I only use Barnes and I always (when possible) shoot big game through both shoulders. The meat loss of 3-5 pounds means nothing compared to having an animal DOA on the spot.
2. Perhaps we could get a group of the "match bullets for hunting" crowd together to go on a Cape Buffalo safari. That would reduce the number of "hunters" blowing craters in animals and participating in this so called "long range hunting" which is an oxymoron. Hunting is a lot more than sitting in a blind with a benchrest and whacking at some hapless deer that doesn't even know how that feeder got out in the field.
As an often quoted phrase says: you a'int huntin Elk till you can smell em."
This what recovered hunting bullets, shot at responsible, ethical look like ranges. All went 2/3 to full length in the respective animals...no match bullet can compare.



Pass the popcorn.

What's different about them?



Hunting Bullets
Description Bullet Dia. Grain (Weight) G1
BC G7
BC Recomm. Twist Part Number
6 MM
6mm 95 Grain Match Hunting VLD 0.243 95 0.486 0.249 9 24527
6mm 105 Grain Match Hunting VLD 0.243 105 0.532 0.272 8 24528
6mm 115 Grain Match Hunting VLD 0.243 115 0.545 0.279 7 24530
25 CALIBER
25 cal 115 Grain Match Hunting VLD 0.257 115 0.466 0.239 10 25513
6.5 MM
6.5mm 130 Grain Match Hunting VLD 0.264 130 0.552 0.282 8 26503
6.5mm 140 Grain Match Hunting VLD 0.264 140 0.612 0.313 8 26504
270 CALIBER
270 cal 130 Grain Match Hunting VLD 0.277 130 0.452 0.231 11 27501
270 cal 140 Grain Match Hunting VLD 0.277 140 0.487 0.248 11 27502
270 cal 150 Grain Match Hunting VLD 0.277 150 0.531 0.272 10 27503
7 MM
7mm 140 Grain Match Hunting VLD 0.284 140 0.486 0.249 11 28503
7mm 168 Grain Match Hunting VLD 0.284 168 0.617 0.316 10 28501
7mm 180 Grain Match Hunting VLD 0.284 180 0.659 0.337 9 28502
30 CALIBER
30 cal 155 Grain Match Hunting VLD 0.308 155 0.439 0.225 14 30508
30 cal 168 Grain Match Hunting VLD 0.308 168 0.473 0.242 13 30510
30 cal 175 Grain Match Hunting VLD 0.308 175 0.498 0.255 13 30512
30 cal 185 Grain Match Hunting VLD 0.308 185 0.549 0.281 12 30513
30 cal 190 Grain Match Hunting VLD 0.308 190 0.570 0.291 12 30514
30 cal 210 Grain Match Hunting VLD 0.308 210 0.631 0.323 11 30515
---------------------------------------------------------------






Target Bullets
Description Bullet Dia. Grain (Weight) G1
BC G7
BC Recomm. Twist Part Number
17 CALIBER
17 cal 25 Grain Match Target 0.172 25 0.190 - 10 17407
22 CALIBER
22 cal 50 Grain Match Target 0.224 50 0.233 - 14 22406
22 cal 52 Grain Match Target 0.224 52 0.242 - 14 22408
22 cal 52 Grain Match Target MOLY 0.224 52 0.242 - 14 22608
22 cal 55 Grain Match Target 0.224 55 0.262 - 14 22410
22 cal 70 Grain Match Target VLD 0.224 70 0.371 0.190 9 22418
22 cal 73 Grain Match Target BT 0.224 73 0.343 0.176 9 22420
22 cal 75 Grain Match Target VLD 0.224 75 0.423 0.217 8 22421
22 cal 77 Grain Match Target BT 0.224 77 0.376 0.192 8 22425
22 cal 80 Grain Match Target VLD 0.224 80 0.445 0.228 8 22422
22 cal 80 Grain Match Target VLD MOLY 0.224 80 0.445 0.228 8 22622
22 cal 82 Grain Match Target BT 0.224 82 0.444 0.227 8 22424
22 cal 90 Grain Match Target BT Long Range 0.224 90 0.512 0.262 7 22426
22 cal 90 Grain Match Target VLD 0.224 90 0.551 0.281 7 22423
6 MM
6mm 62 Grain Match Target 0.243 62 0.237 - 14 24403
6mm 65 Grain Match Target 0.243 65 0.269 - 13 24405
6mm 65 Grain Match Target BT 0.243 65 0.270 0.138 13 24408
6mm 68 Grain Match Target 0.243 68 0.280 - 13 24411
6mm 68 Grain Match Target MOLY 0.243 68 0.280 - 13 24611
6mm 70 Grain Match Target 0.243 70 0.277 - 13 24415
6mm 90 Grain Match Target BT 0.243 90 0.410 0.210 10 24425
6mm 95 Grain Match Target VLD 0.243 95 0.486 0.249 9 24427
image not available 6mm 100 Grain Match Target BT 0.243 100 0.481 0.246
6mm 105 Grain Match Target BT 0.243 105 0.493 0.253 8 24428
6mm 105 Grain Match Target BT MOLY 0.243 105 0.493 0.253 8 24628
6mm 105 Grain Match Target VLD 0.243 105 0.532 0.272 8 24429
6mm 105 Grain Match Target VLD MOLY 0.243 105 0.532 0.272 8 24629
6mm 108 Grain Match Target BT 0.243 108 0.511 0.262 8 24431
6mm 115 Grain Match Target VLD 0.243 115 0.545 0.279 7 24430
25 CALIBER
25 cal 87 Grain Match Target 0.257 87 0.292 - 13 25407
25 cal 115 Grain Match Target VLD 0.257 115 0.466 0.239 10 25413
6.5 MM
image not available 6.5mm 100 Grain Match Target BT 0.264 100 0.377 0.193
6.5mm 120 Grain Match Target BT 0.264 120 0.453 0.232 10 26402
6.5mm 130 Grain Match Target VLD 0.264 130 0.552 0.282 8 26403
6.5mm 140 Grain Match Target BT 0.264 140 0.559 0.286 8 26406
6.5mm 140 Grain Match Target VLD 0.264 140 0.612 0.313 8 26401
6.5mm 140 Grain Match Target VLD MOLY 0.264 140 0.612 0.313 8 26601
6.5mm 140 Grain Match Target BT Long Range 0.264 140 0.592 0.303 8 26409
7 MM
7mm 168 Grain Match Target VLD 0.284 168 0.617 0.316 10 28401
7mm 180 Grain Match Target BT 0.284 180 0.613 0.314 9 28404
7mm 180 Grain Match Target VLD 0.284 180 0.659 0.337 9 28405
30 CALIBER
30 cal 110 Grain Match Target FB 0.308 110 0.284 - 19 30401
30 cal 115 Grain Match Target FB 0.308 115 0.296 - 19 30421
30 cal 125 Grain Match Target FB 0.308 125 0.329 - 19 30403
30 cal 135 Grain Match Target FB 0.308 135 0.367 - 16 30405
30 cal 150 Grain Match Target FB 0.308 150 0.398 - 15 30407
30 cal 155 Grain Match Target BT 0.308 155 0.438 0.224 14 30409
30 cal 155 Grain Match Target VLD 0.308 155 0.439 0.225 14 30408
30 cal 155.5 Grain Match BT FULLBORE 0.308 155.5 0.464 0.237 13 30416
30 cal 168 Grain Match Target BT 0.308 168 0.452 0.231 13 30411
30 cal 168 Grain Match Target VLD 0.308 168 0.473 0.242 13 30410
30 cal 168 Grain Match Target VLD MOLY 0.308 168 0.473 0.242 13 30610
30 cal 175 Grain Match Target BT Long Range 0.308 175 0.515 0.264 13 30420
30 cal 175 Grain Match Target VLD 0.308 175 0.498 0.255 13 30412
30 cal 185 Grain Match Target BT Long Range 0.308 185 0.560 0.287 12 30418
30 cal 185 Grain Match Target VLD 0.308 185 0.549 0.281 12 30413
30 cal 190 Grain Match Target VLD 0.308 190 0.570 0.291 12 30414
30 cal 210 Grain Match Target BT Long Range 0.308 210 0.626 0.320 11 30419
30 cal 210 Grain Match Target VLD 0.308 210 0.631 0.323 11 30415

Gentlemen, I have thoroughly enjoyed reading all of these posts and learning from them -- you have provided much to glean about the nuance of bullet performance at various ranges and angles of attack. I am hunting a spot of public land on the side of a mountain that was clear cut in many places years ago, and the clear-cuts are now overgrown with the most vexing thickets and impenetrable briar patches known to man. The deer use them as sanctuary. A day or two into rifle season and the deer, when you see them, will appear at any angle and only for a moment. An exposed deer is exposed only for the time it takes to bound from one point of cover to another. You must take the shot you get, or go home with an unfilled tag. My bullet of choice is the nosler partition, and after reading your posts, I believe that is the soundest choice for my conditions.

..........Oldman........Here are my final thoughts and passin your oxy-moron popcorn right back to ya!!!

#1) From the 14 hogs and 1 elk I`ve killed with the VLD, I`ve had more than enough meat leftover.
#2) Your Barnes bullets don`t match the high flying BCs of the VLDs.
#3) Us VLD users prefer our animals DRT on the spot as best as possible to eliminate tracking.
#4) Your stupid and dumb caped buffalo safari analogy is is exactly that,,,,dumb and stupid!!! There was no mention of using VLDs for any caped buffalo by the proponents. You thinkin way too much!!!
#5) Your preaching about what`s ethical and responsible has absolutely nothing to do with VLD users including myself who use them.
#6) We simply kill our game a different way than you do. Us VLD, A/Max proponents prefer little to no tracking, a DRT effect, not interested in bullet recoveries, bullet weight retentions or complete penetrations.
#7) The VLDs kill the game very effectively there pal.
#8) So until you yourself start using them (which you won`t), your credibility until then,,,,,really SUCKS (the polite term).

There, I fixed it for you....

W/o re-reading this whole thread, IIRC, JB said in an earlier post that Berger actually had to modify the hunting version to make it open up more........apparently the target version is/was too tough/hard & penciled too much.

He'd be the one too know..........

MM

The BC's are the same and the bullets are the same

Ha, JWP475, i got a good chuckle out of that "correction"!! I am afraid the dang TSX in a 7x57 or .280 Rem would just pencil right thru these smallish deer we have here... and I don't want to try to recover one from these thickets!! Put em' down quickly, and drag them ***down*** the mountain the two miles to the jeep.

The 110 or 120 .284 TTSX would work just fine for you. Opens quicker than a TSX but still punches through. This is a "smallish" Mulie doe (about 120 lbs) I killed on a control permit at 80 yards from a 300 Savage pushing the 130 TTSX out at 2800. Cut a rib goin in, destroyed the lungs and exit was about 2.5".

Yeah, the BC's are the same but the catalog numbers are different for hunting bullets vs target and the metallurgy is different to allow for "correct" expansion/explosion as explained by JB.

The fact that the catalog numbers are different tells me the bullets are different, unless that's just a marketing ploy.

My original thought was that they were the same bullets but w/o talking to Berger myself, I'll take JB's word for it.

I have no plans to use 'em so it's a moot point for me.

MM