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What sort of accuracy are the Kimber WSM rifles capable of?

They sound interesting!

AD


"The placing of the bullet is everything. The most powerful weapon made will not make up for lack of skill in marksmanship."

Colonel Townsend Whelen
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Kute,



Those guys were my hero's and still are. Whelan had the most influence on me as he was a target shooter as well.



Jorge,



Bowman said that 300 Magnum hunters did what they did. He was there and had to chase the results down. He made a point that sold a lot of guns. Recoil is important to shooters.



djpaintless,



I have just about all of the guns as well. The Decelerator pads have changed the recoil equation for all guns. In theory most of us have a limit as to what recoil we can endure and not flinch. There is not the slightest doubt in my mind that Allen Day is an outstanding shot with his 300 WM's and does not flinch. Also that he is an excellent hunter and uses guides only because he wants to shoot lots of stuff. Sure I do it myself to but to each his own.



Allen,



The Kimbers are indeed interesting and on paper have all the features. However your buying stuff that has been checked and double checked. For most of us the Kimbers are a good place to start for not that much money. With some luck one can get a shooter out of the box.


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I simply don't "get" the recoil/more accurate shooting argument. It borders on ridiculous!

No matter how you crunch the numbers, if you compare max loads to max loads (or starting to starting), there is no realistic difference in recoil between the two! ONE foot pound is NOT going to make you shoot any worse or better.

It's a simple calculation -- a lighter bullet, traveling faster is going to come in very close to its counterpart!

Sorry to be so bluntly rude, but shooting one better than the other, for whatever made up reason, is silly.

I have the pair in model 7's in their Remington counterparts (7mm and 300 saum). Both are light rifles and "I" can't tell ANY difference in recoil shooting the two.

If elk or bear are on the agenda, go with the 30 cal version. You WILL get more of a blood trail out of the entrance wound as thick hides and fat will plug smaller holes. Of course, if your shots are always perfect, it's not an issue <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

Of course, bullet selection is almost as critical as shot placement! The wrong bullet in the right spot and eventually you'll have problems.

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Talk to target shooters about recoil. They want the bare minimum in recoil that will get the bullet to the middle of the target. When we shoot long range or even at moderate range recoil matters a lot.



As to hunters and recoil I suggest reading Bob Hagel. He wrote quite a few pages on it and states that it matters a lot.



That's the word from target shooters and Bob Hagel. If recoil does not bother you then good for you.


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Nice try! If you are finding ANY significant difference, you are NOT comparing apples to apples.

BTW, we're not talking target shooting either! If we were, we'd also be talking HEAVY rifles and that <1 footpound delta in recoil would be even less an issue. I'm calling BS.

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Muley Stalker,



I added the paragraph about Bob Hagel after you posted.



Your entited to your own opinion and adjectives however you are wrong.





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Quote
What sort of accuracy are the Kimber WSM rifles capable of?


Here's the 7 WSM 3 shots at 200 yds with Factory Ammo:



[Linked Image]




And then the 270 WSM 3 shots at 200 yds with a favorite reload:



[Linked Image]



Allen, please realize that you may be spoiled by the exceptional accuracy of your Echol's rifles and Kimbers probably aren't quite in the same class, but they are very capable rifles. They are also lighter in weight and on the wallet than an Echol's custom. I think for a factory production rifle for under $1000 they represent an excellent value. They also fit me very well.
If you ever happen to be near OKC you're more than welcome to shoot any of mine. I've let 4 buddies shoot my Kimbers, 2 have already bought 1 or more Kimbers and the other 2 are planning to buy one. PM me if you might be close and would like to visit our gun club, I promise to not complain if you bring your 338 Legend along to compare.............DJ


Remember this is all supposed to be for fun.......................
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Been following this thread somewhat, kinda amusing! Anyways I was contemplating this very question a month ago. Came to the same conclusion as Muley Stalker after a bit of thought, it won't amount to a rat's ass when it comes down to felt recoil in the field between these two cartridges. I went with the 300WSM but plan on picking up the 7WSM next year! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Dang rifle looney in me!

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Using Federal factory ammo as a guide, their 7 WSM 140 Nosler BT @ 3310 fps generates 3405 ft lbs. of energy while the 300 WSM 150 Nosler @ 3200 fps generates 3410 ft lbs. The 7 WSM 160 Nosler Partition @ 3160 fps generates 3545 ft lbs. of energy while the 300 WSM 180 Nosler Partition generates 3540 ft lbs.

They are basically equal in energy. Therefore, recoil will be very close. Assuming a zero of 250 yards, the 300 WSM will drop a little more than 1 inch more than the 7 WSM @ 400 yards with the lighter bullets. The difference at 400 yards in drop with the heavier bullets is still less than 2 inches in favor of the 7 WSM.

I think a fellow needs a 7 Mag and a 300 Mag.

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Savage, I could really give a crap about Mr. Hagel. We're talking about hunting rifles here.

BTW, I have a degree in Mathematics and used to teach physics. I understand the entire concept of recoil quite well. If you can distinguish such a slight difference (if at all) in felt recoil then you are already shooting beyond your maximum and that AGAIN would make it a non-issue.

Seriously, we're talking about a difference that is no more than the variance in what you'd find between one bullet and another in the SAME box of off the shelf ammo. Average handloads for that matter.

Once again, BS! -- particularly when you take it in context with the original question posed.

BTW, common courtesy would be to crunch some numbers before you tell somebody they're "wrong." If you had, you'd see how silly your recoil argument is!

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Muley, I agree with you. I have a brother in law who last year purchased a Savage 110 bolt in 30-06, wood stalk. We went to our range to sight in his rifle, he was shooting 150 grain bullets, factory ammo, I was shooting my 7mm Rem Mag in 150 grain Scirocco's, Rem BDL left hand rifle.

After about 6 shots, my brother in law was complaining about recoil and how hard his 06 was kicking, and told me to shoot it some. I can tell you that his 30-06 kicked alot harder than my 7 mag, and I believe for the following reasons: 1)he had no recoil pad on his rifle, and I had a decellerator, 2) His rifle was fairly light, and mine was slightly heavier. Between the two, his "felt" recoil was much greater than mine, even though on paper with math, a 7 mag kicks alittle harder than an 06. 3) I am a bigger man than him, he feels more recoil than me.

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go with the 300 wsm. if you only need to shoot 7mm bullets, you do not need a mag, go with a 270. the 300 wsm is simply too good to pass up and the 7mm wsm has the short little neck that no one really likes to talk about anyway. I have owned three 300 WMs and sold them all, just did not like them (must admit the cartridge is hard to beat). have one 300wsm and love it. it is my "go to" rifle. for "trophy hunting - however you may define it", I like a 30 cal bullet of 165 grains. this can do any reasonable shot at any angle. I know you can kill them with 100 gr 25 cal bullets at 2800 fps but I prefer to hedge my bets. also, for larger game, the 30 cal is the way to go. the 300 wsm can do anything the 7 mm wsm can do but the 7mm can not step up to the heavier bullets if needed, ie 180-200 gr.

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re. the recoil discussion, I got curious and plugged some #s into one of the online recoil calculators

assuming equal powder charges and weight guns, a 160gr out of a 7mm WSM recoils about 5% less than a 180gr 300 WSM, depending on which recoil parameter you look at

http://stevespages.com/brecoil.shtml

using the Federal nosler partition loads, assuming same powder charges...

160 at 3160fps from 7.5 lb gun w/ 70gr charge gives
26.94 ft-lbs
14.96 f/s
3.6 lb/s

180 gr at 2975 fps from 7.5 lb gun, also 70 gr charge gives
29.03
15.53
3.74

not a big difference, but the recoil formula is incorporates bullet momentum rather than energy, explaining why even though muzzle energy is similar for the loads, recoil is lower for the 7 using the lighter bullet

anyway, the recoil issue is somewhat hair splitting but I like the idea of a 7 WSM because of the better vel. and energy retention downrange, as someone else noted earlier

also has the highest powder capacity of all the short mags by a smidge due to shoulder further forward

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Muley Stalker,

Les Bowmans argument was with 300 Magnums. The popular one at that time was the 300 Weatherby Magnum. What Bowman promoted was the 7mm RM.

Somehow this discussion got off comparing the WSM's which are similar of course.

I have not calculated the recoil of at 300 Weatherby vrs a 7mm RM but having shot both there is a difference. I would expect it can be calcuated also.

Perhaps this is how a misunderstanding started.


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oh, and as far as "inherent accuracy", a guy named Tim Lambert set a new world record for 1 mile group (5 shots in 10 inches!), and won a 1000 yd national competition w/ a 7 WSM he built (on a savage action!) within the last yr; if you poke around you can probably find the info, maybe over at shortmags.org

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I can't imagine the recoil to be noticeably different between the two, not on the bench, and certainly not in the field!

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Nontypical,

I appreciate your calculations, and it illustrates my point, but the recoil is even closer than that as you can typically use a bit more powder safely with lighter bullets.

Savage, THAT I can agree with! I owned a 300 wby for quite a few years that I HATED to shoot, despite it being very heavy! In fact, after I sold it I bought my 338 ultramag (slow learner <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) and would MUCH rather shoot the ultra than the Wby.

Stock fit? Who knows for sure, maybe I just learned to shoot the Wby well enough that the ultra wasn't that much worse? I have put a TON of copper down range with that ultra and while I can't pretend that I enjoy shooting it, I shoot it pretty well. Better than I ever shot the 300 wby. Gotta think the 7mm RM a piece of cake in comparison though I've only shot a few rounds from a couple different rifles of that chambering. The 7mm saum is the first 7mm anything I've owned.

Faced with having to dump either my 7mm or 300 saum, there'd be no question despite the 7mm being a custom job and the 300 straight factory -- I'd keep the 300 in a heartbeat!

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The thing you have to keep in mind when you re-examine Les Bowman's comments on this subject -- and Bowman was a very bright man and good observer -- is that the most common .300s that were brought into his camps in those days were .300 Weatherby's. Those early Southgate-built FN and German-built Mark Vs were typically very light rifles with light barrel contours and crooked stocks with a lot of drop at heel, plus high Monte Carlo combs. Recoil pads weren't that soft, either.

I've shot a few of these rifles myself, and those light .300 Weatherby's just plain kick like a mule. It's no wonder in my mind that some of Bowman's clients didn't shoot those rifles so well. Modern .300 Weatherby's with good Decelerator recoil pads, and high, straight stocks are much more shootable.

Even the early Remington 700s ( I have one built in 1963) in 7mm Rem. Mag., while they do kick less than those .300 Weatherbys, actually kick harder than more modern rifles chambered in .300 Winchester.

My Echols-built .300 Winchester is much more shootable than that early 7mm Mag. of mine, and one of my friends has a Model 70 Sporter LT in .300 Win. (Miller-designed stock) that also kicks less.

Felt recoil isn't all about the cartridge, it's also about the RIFLE.

This new Kimber has a very well-designed stock from all appearances. It should be very shooter-friendly.......

AD


"The placing of the bullet is everything. The most powerful weapon made will not make up for lack of skill in marksmanship."

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Sooooooo.....

For poor Mr. Walters' benefit, recoil deltas shouldn't be a significant consideration in your decision between the two cartridges you are considering (grin).

Sorry to start a fight on your thread!

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Actually, the recoil issue was never an issue. I'm a mechnaical engineer, and have been watching the debate rage with some humor.

Guess I should have asked which is more accurate, and by how much? If the 7mm is .5 inches at 100 yards and the 300 is .75 inches, the 50% better group of the 7mm is insignificant at most shooting ranges (at 600 yards the dif is 3 inches, all things being otherwise equal).

I have kimbers and Tikkas, might just get a Savage in 7mm WSM with the accutrigger, just to experiment.


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