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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
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You can fly and shoot (we ain't talking commercial jets here) on the same day for deer in Alaska.
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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My buddy from Minn. guides over there for a few months each year (starting in March). He's done this for a few years and has offered me some very good deals to join him over there. His fee's would be waived and I would be able to hunt many of the animals on this particular property at no expense at all. But for the majors that are hunted over there, he states that the heli's are the only way his and other outfits approach such hunts. As one of the vids states, "we have 100% success rate". I suppose if that is the main focus of "hunting" the majors over there, then the heli hunts do that extremely well. Just not what a true hunt means to me nor something that I would consider. I may someday take him up on the "lesser" animals he speaks of, but those hunts involve spot and stalk.......on foot.
I have declined to hunt there, at this time, just due to the heli deal. I've explained my feelings to him and he understands. There doesn't seem to be a lack of interest by many others in doing so, however.
I've traveled Australia with my wife and would like to visit NZ as well. I expect that we'll do so within the next few years, but unless I can be assured of a hunt which is "fair chase", I'll just take in the view. It is really a beautiful country.
Now I'm sure that somebody will get all riled up and ask just what I feel "fair chase" really means, so I'll save you the attempt to make this more than you really need to. Suffice it to say that these vids do not exhibit what I would consider to be "fair chase".......IMHO.
For herd management and to reduce #'s of wolves where heli's or planes are the most reasonable, effective and efficient way to approach such reductions.......I'll all for it. But to pay to have a motorized vehicle of any kind locate, round-up, tire-out, and than place you in the most advantageous position for a shot at said animal.........the entire heli involvement seems to be lacking any and all of what many likely would consider to be fair chase attributes or criteria, at least for me they do.
YMMV............
Last edited by magnumb; 01/16/10.
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Couple questions????
Are the animals you mentioned considered "Pests" in NZ?
Is there a "Season" for these animals?
Is there a "Limit" for these animals?
Is there a law that the meat from these animals must be salvaged?
I'm from Alaska. Alaska does shoot "Pests" from helicopters. Wolves are considered "Pests" in certain parts of the state.When they over populate, they are shot from a helicopter.
You can "fly and hunt the same day" for certain game animals in certain parts of the state. This is considered a meat hunt and not a trophy hunt.
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Campfire Regular
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I'm not much on "banning" anything. It may not be my preferred way of doing things, but that doesn't mean another person might thinks it's the cat's azz.
"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man." --Robert Duvall.
"Fill your hand, you son-of-a-bitch!" --John Wayne.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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If the 4 questions you ask are for me, I can offer just the little bit I know, not having been there.
My buddy states that there are waaaaay too many pigs and kangeroo's/wallabies/whatever over there. He called them pests, so I suppose they are like PDogs and such. He made it sound like that type of hunting is an all year 'round thing, with no limits. But being a prviate property thing, it may be different......don't know.
Don't know about the wastage of meat laws in NZ concerning these "pests", but I've eaten kangs and pig, so it seems that it would be reasonable to do so there as well and then to give to those either in need or that want some as well.
As I said earlier, I'm also in favor of reducing pests/wolves/'yotes/whatever that needs thinning, but I don't consider heli "hunts" for Red Stag, Thar or other game animals to be in that same catagory.
WA state also does not allow you to fly and hunt in the same day......FWIW. Makes perfect sense to me.
Last edited by magnumb; 01/16/10.
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Campfire Ranger
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I don't know of many in the US that would deem copter hunting or driving as fair chase sport hunting. Killing yes. Hunting, hell no. We already have a hell of an advantage with just our rifles, optics, rangefinders, and shotguns here. If we were to push for those options in the states, the anti's would probably make serious inroads into hunting in general. I'd not even suggest doing an exploratory survey on that issue in the US for fear of loosing ground.
I can tell you I'd be one pissed off puppy if I clawed my way to 10,000 feet one morning and a chopper roared over the rim and took out the animal I was after. A rock passing through their rotor would quite accurately convey my displeasures.
We can use aircraft for predator control and capture and transplant jobs. Even in those instances, folks try to be discrete.
I can't imagine SCI or B&C ever condoning such actions.
Last edited by 1minute; 01/16/10.
1Minute
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"Heli-hunting" on the other hand is purely for trophies and our New Zealand regulatory bodies are trying to dress heli-hunting up as legitimate form of "hunting"... as if it's part and parcel of the sport Your "regulatory bodies" don't have a clue what they are doing. Dropping someone off to hunt for several days would be one thing. Chasing an animal down and then shooting it IS NOT HUNTING BY ANY DEFINITION! If I were to see them doing it I would have a real problem resisting the urge to put a few bullet holes in the chooper.
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My buddy from Minn. guides over there for a few months each year (starting in March). He's done this for a few years and has offered me some very good deals to join him over there. His fee's would be waived and I would be able to hunt many of the animals on this particular property at no expense at all. But for the majors that are hunted over there, he states that the heli's are the only way his and other outfits approach such hunts. As one of the vids states, "we have 100% success rate". I suppose if that is the main focus of "hunting" the majors over there, then the heli hunts do that extremely well. Just not what a true hunt means to me nor something that I would consider. I may someday take him up on the "lesser" animals he speaks of, but those hunts involve spot and stalk.......on foot.
I have declined to hunt there, at this time, just due to the heli deal. I've explained my feelings to him and he understands. There doesn't seem to be a lack of interest by many others in doing so, however.
I've traveled Australia with my wife and would like to visit NZ as well. I expect that we'll do so within the next few years, but unless I can be assured of a hunt which is "fair chase", I'll just take in the view. It is really a beautiful country.
Now I'm sure that somebody will get all riled up and ask just what I feel "fair chase" really means, so I'll save you the attempt to make this more than you really need to. Suffice it to say that these vids do not exhibit what I would consider to be "fair chase".......IMHO.
For herd management and to reduce #'s of wolves where heli's or planes are the most reasonable, effective and efficient way to approach such reductions.......I'll all for it. But to pay to have a motorized vehicle of any kind locate, round-up, tire-out, and than place you in the most advantageous position for a shot at said animal.........the entire heli involvement seems to be lacking any and all of what many likely would consider to be fair chase attributes or criteria, at least for me they do.
YMMV............ Sounds like you have an good idea what the term "ethics" means. Your "buddy" however is a piece of scum. Personally I would call him an "acquaintance" because every one has at least one acquaintance that they wish would just disappear. If they are always getting 100% "success" rate, then the best you can call what they are doing is "harvesting" not hunting.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Based on that--
I don't condone, endorse or like it. Just seems wrong. ALL wrong!!
Last edited by byc; 01/16/10.
Proud to be a true Sandlapper!!
Go Nats!!!!
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Campfire Outfitter
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I'm more against laws against any given form of hunting than I am against any given form of hunting.
Islam is a terrorist organization.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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and complete disrespect of wild (albeit non-native) animals in New Zealand.
Another disadvantage of non-native species--people (and government) tend to treat exotic species differently than native species. In Colorado you cannot fly and hunt on the same day. Casey
Casey
Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Its not hunting IT IS SLAUGHTER>against my values and ethics.
There is not enough darkness in all the world to put out the light of even one small candle----Robert Alden .
If it wern't entertaining, I wouldn't keep coming back.------the BigSky
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No....whether you agree or not, he will always be my friend. We spent time in the USMC at the same base in '69 in 'Nam. This doesn't warrant you looking at him any differently, but it does me. No offense intended to you and I appreciate your kind comments, but he is my friend.
As I said earlier, he has only guided for a short time there and he doesn't push me to do anything I don't want to. He likes to spend time with me and vice versa. He also guides in Idaho and Mt., but as we all know, the economy makes us look a bit harder and further for work these days. He is no exception.
Since it is legal in NZ at this time and it is part and parcel of the job, he's doing what he can to provide for him and his, of which there are several.
He knows where I stand and honors that, as I do your stance on this subject, but he is much more than an acquaintance to me. He is my friend and always will be.
Last edited by magnumb; 01/16/10.
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OP
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Interesting point about F&G not recognising and in some cases, penalising a trophy hunters trophy should it be taken in a "NON fair chase" setting, as is the case when using helicopters to muster and manipulate a trophy hunt.
Would heli-hunting discourage you from visiting NZ to hunt for chamois or tahr on public land?
New Zealand has some of the best public land hunting available at absolutely no cost, but with heli-hunting now becoming a legit activity, I fear this may deter people. Your opinion's??
Cheers
MM
Hunting is not just a hobby, its a lifestyle! For those of you interested in checking out some hunting photos, check out my personal hunting website: www.mountainman.co.nzMM
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I think you have it right.
Anybody who would display or even suggest that an animal killed by aerial means is a trophy, is not a hunter by my definition.
Once again the powers-that-be have it wrong, and normally you can trace their thought process back to $$$$. Personally I feel very strongly against using helicopters for even accessing an area, wait times are often meaningless. All that said an animal would still have some chance of escape even if pursued by a helicopter. A fenced animal has none yet SCI will gladly take your money and list your ranch killed game.As in most cases I suspect it is commercial hunting interests that are pushing for this lowering of the bar. Just follow the money.
Last edited by tangozulu; 01/16/10.
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MM:
My above post was directed at you. I'm sorry I did not make that clear. Could you answer my questions?
Thanks.
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I feel helicopters should be illegal for hunting.
MM, those are some amazing pics. the terrain is amazing. One of these decades I'm gonna make it down there.
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I feel helicopters should be illegal for hunting.
MM, those are some amazing pics. the terrain is amazing. One of these decades I'm gonna make it down there. Chasing down animals with machines will only lead to this and god knows what else down the road. http://www.outdoorlife.com/articles/mike-schoby/2007/09/remote-control-hunting
"Knowledge is good"
� Emil Faber
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Couple questions????
1) Are the animals you mentioned considered "Pests" in NZ?
2) Is there a "Season" for these animals?
3) Is there a "Limit" for these animals?
4) Is there a law that the meat from these animals must be salvaged?
I'm from Alaska. Alaska does shoot "Pests" from helicopters. Wolves are considered "Pests" in certain parts of the state.When they over populate, they are shot from a helicopter. Hi BrnBear 1) These animals are exotic (non native), however there numbers are not in pest proportions. Particularly tahr and chamois, these animals are kept in contained numbers. Deer on the other hand can become a "pest" problem in some areas and risk spreading TB. However, chamois and tahr (which are the prime targets for heli-hunters) are no considered high risks for spreading TB. 2) There are no season's for deer, chamois, or tahr hunting in NZ. There is however a season for freshwater trout & salmon fishing, and a season for waterfowl shooting (they too are all introduced animals). To hunt in NZ you only need to obtain a FREE hunting permit each year, and it's simply a matter of filling in an online form and providing your firearms license no. It is incredibly under regulated in NZ 3) There are no bag limits for how many animals of what ever species you can or can't shoot. It is simply open slather. Some hunting lobbyists / recreational activist groups (like the NZ Big Game Council) are pushing for this to change, however due to the animals' being introduced, our green parties in government don't want to be involved in "managing" non-native animals. Despite tahr for instance prooving to be one of biggest hunting resources for New Zealand. Particularly given that NZ is the only place in the world where you can hunt them. 4) No law stipulating that meat is to be utilised for personal consumption or sold as domestic/ international product. There are however some operators that do sell deer meat to overseas markets like Germany who demand feral venison.. Shooting "pests" from helicopters is one thing, but for Clients to pay to shoot trophies is something completely different.
Last edited by NZmountainman; 01/17/10.
Hunting is not just a hobby, its a lifestyle! For those of you interested in checking out some hunting photos, check out my personal hunting website: www.mountainman.co.nzMM
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Campfire Ranger
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Copter "hunting" would certainly deter me from considering a potential area. First, I personally would not employ such methods, and if such activities disrupted my efforts, I'd be extremely angry.
About 5 years ago as we were folding up camp after a friend's successful pronghorn hunt, an ultralite type craft began working the country to scout for a pending bighorn hunt. Over about an hour and 15 minutes, he worked about 100 to 120 sqaure miles. Not a large area at all in our environment, but certainly a significant chunk if one's worked hard to get there and is hunting afoot. For the entire morning, every feral horse band and all pronghorn in sight were running around the country seeking escape. Any attempt at spot and stalk would have been futile. When we departed, about 1 hr after he had landed, things had still not settled down.
Some animals are almost oblivious to aircraft, Our moose and caribou will hardly even notice aircraft that land only yards away. Bighorn will flock up and seek cliff rock shelter. Our elk will clear out. Hence, our regulations against hunting on the day one is transported, hazing of wildlife, or transmitting game locations from above.
I've had several days of low flight work with copters, and in 2 hrs of flight, I could have taken bighorn, pronghorn, mule deer, mountain lion, bobcat, and coyote. All of those without even breaking a sweat or getting my boots dirty. A helicopter and a firearm make a wonderful killing combination. But the results of such an expedition would not hang on my walls proudly exhibited as trophies.
For population or animal damage control, fine. But let's not even attempt to label the take as a trophy.
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