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#3689593 - 01/17/10 Re: HUNTING FROM HELICOPTERS [Re: magnumb]  
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Originally Posted by magnumb
As I said earlier, he has only guided for a short time there and he doesn't push me to do anything I don't want to. He likes to spend time with me and vice versa. He also guides in Idaho and Mt., but as we all know, the economy makes us look a bit harder and further for work these days. He is no exception.

Since it is legal in NZ at this time and it is part and parcel of the job, he's doing what he can to provide for him and his, of which there are several.


I have to look harder and further for work these days too. Wouldn't excuse me doing certain things. And doesn't excuse what he is doing.

If you reread the original post it says that a NZ gov agencie is trying to legalize this practice. There is a huge difference between legal and "trying to legalize". For his families sake I hope he doesn't find out the difference the hard way.
If they are "trying to legalize" that tells me that even if it is "part and parcel" of the job it is still illegal at this time. If someone wanted me to do something that could land me in a jail cell the first answer is NO the second is "what part of the first answer are you too stupid to understand?" And yes there have been several instances where I was offered employment if I was willing to do something that would land me in jail if/when caught. Most recently by an old "friend" who was having problems with his exwife. I can sympothis with his reasons for wanting the company books done that way but it is a ticket to a jail cell if he or the bookkeeper got caught.

CMG 300 BP

#3689817 - 01/17/10 Re: HUNTING FROM HELICOPTERS [Re: chris112]  
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Again, not trying to change anyone's mind, but it seems obvious that it is legal (in the sense that it's not illegal) in NZ 'cuz there's just too many outfitters/hunters (so to speak), participating in such activities and so many videos advertising such.

Can't imagine that they'd be flaunting illegal activities so openly.........I surely don't have the answer. But if it is legal, then it changes only the fact that my friend or anyone else so involved is not acting illegally.........I still do not condone nor choose to participate in such practices.

I'm happy that you don't involve yourself in illegal practices as was offered you. I don't expect that many of us would, hopefully. But it seems that your only stated reasoning for not doing so was to avoid the possibility of jail time. I'm thinkin', like what I believe the intent of this thread was, that such decisions, whether guiding a heli hunt or cookin' someone's books for them, should be primarily based on more moral and ethical reasonings rather than the fact that we might be otherwise.....caught.

I surely don't reside in a glass house........I'm pretty sure that none of us do.


Last edited by magnumb; 01/17/10.
#3689959 - 01/17/10 Re: HUNTING FROM HELICOPTERS [Re: Mako25]  
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NZ is a strange country. The conservationists want to kill all the animals by dropping poison from the sky and the hunters argue for more restrictions.

Please note that this activity is currently illegal. Thats despite the fact thats it's common.

One point I would like to raise is isn't this going to devalue trophies taken from NZ?

e.g. You come to NZ and hunt the Kiwi way. On return to the states you show everyone your new 14 inch Tahr horns. The first question everyone has was what's it like to shoot out of a helicopter?

Also for those that don't see the harm in it please understand that this is being done on public land.

Imagine it happening in the states. Say your a keen Elk hunter who every year hunts the same bit of public land. You draw an Elk tag for this season and on opening day head to your spot. You spend the day trying to get close to the bull you know is in the area (because you have spent time and energy scouting the area on foot before the hunting season started).

There is a loud roar as a helicopter flys overhead, circles the valley, then hovers over the thicket that YOUR bull is hiding in. The copter chases it out of cover then chases the poor animal around for a while. The copter lands, a rotund overseas hunter with a shiny rifle and a full camo outfit gets out, shoot the bull, takes a photo, hooks the bull up to the helicopter and flys off. Next week you see the trophy Elk tack in the SCI magazine with a beaming overseas hunter holding it.

How would you feel? This is our reality.

Please bear in mind that local foot hunters can't fly where ever and whenever they like on public land like heli hunters can. We have designated flight paths, landing spots, limited numbers of landings, restricted seasons etc.

We are being discriminated against in out own country. The really sad thing is that we are doing it to ourselves.

Last edited by landcruiserguy; 01/17/10.
#3690282 - 01/17/10 Re: HUNTING FROM HELICOPTERS [Re: landcruiserguy]  
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Well said and I feel for you and others who fair hunt.

Times are changin', but not always for the better......

I wish you and others the best in regards to these heli hunt issues.

#3690781 - 01/17/10 Re: HUNTING FROM HELICOPTERS [Re: chris112]  
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Chris112"

Quote
For his families sake I hope he doesn't find out the difference the hard way.


A good point. Such a practice could eliminate the need for guides and outfitters. One could leave work from the helipad and be back for lunch without taking off his tie. We'd only need the services of a skilled pilot.

I may be wrong, but I think there was a request from the international crowd to comment on this about 18 month ago. Didn't support it then either.


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#3691927 - 01/18/10 Re: HUNTING FROM HELICOPTERS [Re: magnumb]  
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Originally Posted by magnumb
Again, not trying to change anyone's mind, but it seems obvious that it is legal (in the sense that it's not illegal) in NZ 'cuz there's just too many outfitters/hunters (so to speak), participating in such activities and so many videos advertising such.

Can't imagine that they'd be flaunting illegal activities so openly



The legality is in question....Bit like tax law if they can find a loop hole they use it... wink

But some chopper outfits are a law in to themselves and have been braking the law by going in to no fly zones to recover animals for sale....Some are going through the courts after being vidioed doing it but they will probably get off due to quality of the video but the locals know who it is... A chopper was vidioed on private land (without permition) taking a bull that was eneterd in a hunting comp the next day....but withdrew it when the vidio was produced

They think they own the skies and because they can they think the rules are there to be bent mad and DOC have not been chasing down those that do break the current law.



Hunting fishing its all good smile
#3692824 - 01/18/10 Re: HUNTING FROM HELICOPTERS [Re: Mako25]  
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For a brief historical overview of heli-hunting, go to http://www.kiwiopinion.com/

Someone mentioned the diff betw legalised and wanting to legalise.

My understanding is that our regulatory bodies have granted certain helicopter operators the go-ahead to heli-hunt under their existing wild animal recovery operations (WARO) concessions. WARO is typically the shooting & recovery of venison for export to overseas markets - but due to the nature of using aircraft for the activity, DOC thought that was the best concession process to tack heli-hunting as an acitivity to cover their a$$e$. So for some operators, the activity is legitimate according to Dept Of Conservation.

For the majority of other helicopter operators and hunting outfitters, they are pushing to legalise heli-hunting, which IF it's granted, will be sanctioned under a different concession (namely a heli-hunting concession). From then the temporary permits to heli-hunt which currently exist for a handful of WARO concessions holders will cease, and all applications will have to made under what is currently being developed as "specific heli-hunting concessions". If that makes sense?

Basically our regulatory bodies realised, "oh [bleep], some of these outfitters have been doing heli-hunting for years"... as it's been creating a huge public outcry (due to people making numerous complaints etc), and so now that the limelight is on the authorities to "FIX" it...

So they've decided to simply put a bandaid on it by making it legit for the biggest outfitters who rely heavily on the activity for $$business$$ in the interim, and are currrently working towards making the activity legitimate sometime in 2010 after various "public consultation" processes, which to date haven't got us very far at all.

SO instead of putting a halt entirely to the whole thing, they've said, "well, it's been happening (illegally) for years anyway, why not make it legit and turn this money making scheme into a legitimate (albeit unethical & unsafe) means of hunting. And then sell it as a sport / tourism related venture

Makes me sick

Last edited by NZmountainman; 01/18/10.

Hunting is not just a hobby, its a lifestyle!

For those of you interested in checking out some hunting photos, check out my personal hunting website:
www.mountainman.co.nz

MM
#3693357 - 01/18/10 Re: HUNTING FROM HELICOPTERS [Re: landcruiserguy]  
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Originally Posted by landcruiserguy
NZ is a strange country. The conservationists want to kill all the animals by dropping poison from the sky and the hunters argue for more restrictions.

Please note that this activity is currently illegal. Thats despite the fact thats it's common.

One point I would like to raise is isn't this going to devalue trophies taken from NZ?

e.g. You come to NZ and hunt the Kiwi way. On return to the states you show everyone your new 14 inch Tahr horns. The first question everyone has was what's it like to shoot out of a helicopter?

Also for those that don't see the harm in it please understand that this is being done on public land.

Imagine it happening in the states. Say your a keen Elk hunter who every year hunts the same bit of public land. You draw an Elk tag for this season and on opening day head to your spot. You spend the day trying to get close to the bull you know is in the area (because you have spent time and energy scouting the area on foot before the hunting season started).

There is a loud roar as a helicopter flys overhead, circles the valley, then hovers over the thicket that YOUR bull is hiding in. The copter chases it out of cover then chases the poor animal around for a while. The copter lands, a rotund overseas hunter with a shiny rifle and a full camo outfit gets out, shoot the bull, takes a photo, hooks the bull up to the helicopter and flys off. Next week you see the trophy Elk tack in the SCI magazine with a beaming overseas hunter holding it.

How would you feel? This is our reality.

Please bear in mind that local foot hunters can't fly where ever and whenever they like on public land like heli hunters can. We have designated flight paths, landing spots, limited numbers of landings, restricted seasons etc.

We are being discriminated against in out own country. The really sad thing is that we are doing it to ourselves.


Like I said in one of my earlier posts I would have a real problem resisting the urge to put a few bullet holes in that chopper. Maybe send a few at the "hunter" as well.

#3693398 - 01/18/10 Re: HUNTING FROM HELICOPTERS [Re: magnumb]  
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Originally Posted by magnumb
But it seems that your only stated reasoning for not doing so was to avoid the possibility of jail time.


In the field I work, an "ethics" violation will almost always end up with at least a termination of employment and in a majority of cases a possablity of jail time. Just the nature of the work. Tends to be a good reason to behave yourself.

#3693403 - 01/18/10 Re: HUNTING FROM HELICOPTERS [Re: NZmountainman]  
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I've always wanted to visit NZ for some hunting and fishing and finally rached a stage in life where it could be possible. If the helo thing becomes legit, I'll pass on a visit.


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#3695027 - 01/19/10 Re: HUNTING FROM HELICOPTERS [Re: chris112]  
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As my last post said......one's ethics and morals should guide them first, no matter whether a certain action is legal or not.

In other words, "behaving yourself", as you say, should have more to do with being guided by what one believes to be proper and fair rather than what criminal charges might be brought.

Most career fields will result in termination where a cookin' of the books adjudication is found. Whatever your career is, it's not unique to such consequences, so stating such is of no value and changes nothing. The point of my posts and this thread is not about the criminality of heli hunting(and if you've read all these posts, it doesn't seem to be a crime) as much as the unethical results and or feelings that it leaves in it's wake and how it adversely affects all sportsmen and also negatively impacts the publics point of view.

Again, it would be nice to know that most of us proceed through life while doing what we know is the right way to act, rather than just fearing the results should we involve ourselves in certain activities and then get caught, which seems to be your only real concern if you take your last few posts at face value. Your most recent offerings only concern themselves with legal consequences for one's actions.......not ethical or moral concerns, which was the intent of this thread.

If you now have or eventually might have children someday, they WILL eventually do something that YOU deem unethical. Since you seem to easily assign the name "scum" to people who act unethically in your point of view and then state that we should then only refer to them as "acquaintances" rather than friends (as friends and family share many of the same qualities), I expect that introducing your son and/or daughter to someone as "scum" or merely an "acquaintance" (if you truly embrace your own statements and beliefs) will be quite uncomfortable and disturbing, at best, for all involved. And if you deem friends and family as being so different as far as what's expected of them and how we should treat them should they act differently than what you deem appropriate, ethically speaking, I'd be curious as where you draw those distinctions and/or those differences, if any........? .

If you and/or any other family members, in fact, reside within the aformentioned "glass house", my congratulations on your being, at all times, ethical...........I can now better understand your position. I wish that I could say the same, but me and mine are resigned to living in a plain, 'ole Hardi Board dwelling.

It's a work in progress...........


Last edited by magnumb; 01/20/10.
#3698844 - 01/20/10 Re: HUNTING FROM HELICOPTERS [Re: magnumb]  
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Thanks for your comments guys, it's interesting to read your thoughts and views on heli-hunting!

For anyone attending the SCI Reno Convention this year, keep you eyes and ears peeled for people marketing "heli-hunting".

I'm under the impression that one of the New Zealand Dept of Conservation managers is flying over to the Convention to present the activity to SCI members who may wish to heli-hunt for tahr & chamois in NZ..

p.s. somewhere back in one of the previous posts on this thread, someone mentioned the number of kangaroo pests and that aerial control was required (again a diff issue to heli-hunting)... I think you may have New Zealand mistaken for Australia. NZ does not have any kangaroos. Australia does.

Cheers
Jamie

Last edited by NZmountainman; 01/20/10.

Hunting is not just a hobby, its a lifestyle!

For those of you interested in checking out some hunting photos, check out my personal hunting website:
www.mountainman.co.nz

MM
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