Home Forums Fishing Flyfishing short fly rods

Weather is crappy and I haven't had a line in the water for months. I guess withdrawals took over. "Just because I can" I ordered a Cabela's 5 foot "TQR" for a #2 line.

Most of my fly fishing has been on big open rivers from a boat where backcasting was not too challenging. At least on paper, this seems like a cool little rig for tight brushy creeks.

Anyone have any experience with this rod they can share? I still need to fuel my dreamin' for another 2 months 'til the creeks are legal to fish.

Tom

I've never fished a rod that short. I like fishing bamboo and you often see some short bamboo rods, but 5' seems a little extreme to me. I've fished a 6'6" foot rod that fine, but the stream was only 15ft across and I was dry fly fishing. I really prefer a 7' rod for all-around small stream fishing. I had a beauty that I reget selling. It was pretty fast, even for cane, and could easily cast weighted nymphs and streamers if the dry fly wasn't working. My normal go to dry fly rod is 7.5', if I need more rod, I go to the 8.6' Sage.

Must be the place for "Toms"....anyway, I havent used a five footer, but routinely use a 6ft.3 wt. and have used a 5.5 footer...I can still muster a 25-30 ft. cast and consider the little rods to be a real blast on small water...
A 12 incher is a hoot, and a sixteen inch plus trout is a Rodeo!!



And this one was on the 6 footer...
Hes about #3.5, but I was alone with the dog, and couldnt weigh him or get her to take his pic!!
The only thing I have for size comparison is the dog, she weighs #48


Ingwe

Thanks!

I got into a little creek last summer I couldn't fish with any of my current fly gear. I don't think this will get all of it but it'll get me into more of it. The only way I could fish it last year was with real small spinners hanging about 2 feet from my rod tip, then dragging them back and forth across the current. I tell you what, a 10 inch trout hitting on only 2 feet of line will flat light you up! I think its going to be fun floating dry flies in some of the pockets where there's casting room.

Tom

It'll work well. I've fished some with 5 to 5-1/2 foot rods on some small Montana creeks and once you get used to the action of the little rod its easier to keep both the line out of the bushes.

One thing you may encounter is that the rod may need a line heavier than it's rated for. Fly rods are rated with 30 feet of line out, so you may need to step up a ways. One of the rods I used was rated for a 2 or 3, I can't remember which, but it cast a lot better with a 5-weight line with only 10 feet of line out. I don't think I ever used it anywhere 30 feet of line could be cast!

Thanks! Yeah, we usually run 1 weight heavier than recommended. Little easier to "feel" the cast. I'll have to give that a try. I have a pack outfit for a 4 weight so I'll put that reel on this littler yet rod and see what happens.

This outfit is computed for small streams but I'm sure I'll hit the main Rogue as well. I can't hardly own a fly rod and not try it there in spite of having other more suitable tackle. I have had a lot of fun a few times going after the "half pounder" (13-15 inch juvenile run) steelhead on micro ultralight rods, 2 pound test, and mini panther martins not to give 'em a run on this light fly tackle as well. It's too obvious not to try!

Tom

I fish very small creeks. A 6' 2 weight Hardy works well for streams this size....

What MD says rings true, just a bit higher weight makes casting a breeze, my 3 wts are usually wearing 4 wt. line and I step it up a notch by using Weight Forward stuff because the vast majority of my creek fishing is with terrestrials, and a little bit of a "splat" on the presentation usually helps rather than hurts...



Cousin with a six foot 3 wt...



Ingwe

I suspect you guys are on to something. I've been fishing some tiny, spring fed creeks in my neighborhood for a few years now with an old 7 1/2 ft. glass rod. Just too long in many cases. So, I ordered a 5 1/2 ft. Cabela's TQR, #4 weight. I played with a little five footer many years ago in a parking lot. Found that with a little effort, I could get 30 ft or so. More than enough much of the time.
I know what you mean about not having much line out to make a cast. I seldom have more than 6 ft. out trying to work streams that often are so narrow that I can straddle them.
What sort of leaders do you use ? I've found even the 6 footers to be a little too long for some of this fishing.
It may sound pretty extreme, but here in crowded Kalifornia, it's pretty tough finding any native fish that are very sporty. Kind of stumbled on these small spring fed creeks a few years back and was really surprised at the scrappy little Brookies found in them. Many aren't even on the USGS maps. They run for a mile or so and then disappear. Or they have almost nothing in them until you get way back in where the water stays cold and the hikers ignore them. E

I have a 7 ft 2 wt Scott fibertouch rod. I used it a lot fishing for small creeks in WA, VA, Maine, OR, ID, MT. I typically will use a 4-7 ft leader I tie myself. I have good luck with inch worm and ant patterns. Small creeks are a blast to fish and you can get away from the crowds.

Biggest brookie has been 16 inches and cutthroat 18 inches. Have lost bigger fish

That is a nice brown Ingwe

Short rods are an advantage in handling a fish. The short rod gives you more of a leverage advantage (actually, gives the fish LESS leverage.) Never tried a 5 ft. rod, but Lee Wulf used short rods to catch some big fish.

I made a 6.5 2 wt rod that's great for fishing small creeks. I can get 30 ft. of line out, but it's a job. Also, I suspect the way they line-weigh the rods is to kinda guess, close enough is good enough. Mine will throw a 2/3 Teeny line or a 3 WF line just fine.

A 5' rod, if you're standing, is about like a 7' rod if you're sitting as far as distance from the water. So if you can cast a 7' rod from a float tube, you can probably throw a 5' rod standing up.

This is not true... From someone who fishes both short light rods, and spey rods, a long rod gives you tons of control of both line and fish at great distances. Turning a salmon the other way 60 feet away from you can and will be done with a 13 footer, a 7 footer in the same weight? now that's something I would like to see.


But to continue with the actual subject, the shortest rod I have is 7'3" and it does just fine in the smallest of creeks. In my mind, a 5' rod is way too limiting, but I haven't used one so I don't know. Let us know how you like it!
Riley

Yes, it is true. Think about it. The fisherman is on the short end of the lever, the fish is on the long end. The longer the lever the fish has, the harder he is to land.

As I said before, Lee Wulf used 6' rods to land some big steelhead and salmon.

The shortest rod I use is a 7 1/2 ft. 4 wgt.; Cabela's 5 pc. Stowaway. Not an expensive rod($110 when I bought it). Came with reel, line and two cases. It's a hoot and a darn good rod for the bucks. Caught a 24" brown with it on the Raquette River by Buttermilk Falls in the Adirondacks. What a fight! Casts like a dream and I use it quite a bit.

Qtip
Soli Deo Gloria!

I've got a Stowaway 4wt, and it's an excellent rod. Got a 5wt too, and the lower weight rod is better. I think they're kinda uneven in quality. I bought mine back when they were less than $100, IIRC. I bought the combo just to get the case.

Gene L
Guessing you have not spent much time on the short side of the lever... I guarantee you a long rod will whip a fish in a fraction of the time possible with a short rod, all else equal. The difference is too dramatic to argue.

To start, small rods are hand held and the wrist is all that "works" the fish. As rods get a little bigger the butt is placed against something and leverage is applied. Fighting butts get longer and grips extend farther up the rod. If serious work needs doing a second grip is added way up forward.

Then there is the simple fact the long rod can be changed from hard left to hard right in a second... Even fish with a fair amount of line out recogniize that distinction quickly.

A couple years ago I was catching grayling up to about 18" and caught two lake trout in very unexpected fashion on a 2wt rod, 7'6" long. Both grayling and the lakers were significantly larger than a 2wt is really designed for. And further, I had no desire to kill them, either to eat or just because I did not care how rapidly I got them unhooked and revived.

By running downstream and burying a bunch of fly line in the relatively swift water I managed to turn both lakers loose in just a few minutes. The "buried" fly line was nothing but a substitute for a long rod. A long rod would have allowed their landing and release in even less time.

Long way of saying I know exactly what is involved in fighting fish on a short stick and long... Give me the long for almost every reason. Boat use is the sole exception to the short rod advantage. I generally prefer a long rod in tight quarters for dapping, but in tight places where dapping is not the right way to go I also prefer short rods, though a long rod and a snappy roll cast can be done in surprisingly little room...
art

Leverage-The mechanical advantage of a lever.
Lever-A simple machine consisting of a rigid bar pivoted on a fixed point and used to transmit force.

An example of leverage is using a jack to lift your car up to change the tire. Is it easier to jack up your car holding the back end of the bar, or the middle of the bar? Same goes with fly rods. Come fish for big salmon in stout current in Alaska with a 7 foot rod, then try a 13 footer. You will realize the difference. You may prefer the short rod because it is a much more challenging fight, but the long rod will bring the fish in much faster, no questions asked.

Riley

My rod is short too. but all the fishies love me and they all want to jump on the end of my pole. What color backing are you using? I get a little bit more distance and better balance with the orange 30lb dacron. This is of course ONLY with dry flies. I use the the plain old white with streamer express line, Green and black... What's your favorite 5 weight?

Your example exactly proves my point. The fulcrum for the lever on a jack is at the jack itself, making a very short, short end. Which is why you can jack up a car. The fulcrum on a rod is at the handle, which is why a fish can exert more pressure on a long lever of the rod.

Rod length is excellent for casting, but is not excellent for landing a fish. Why are big game saltwater rods not 15 feet long if it offered an advantage?

Because saltwater rods are used from boats... Wading rods are long.

A 6' rod with a typical short handle has limited mechanical advantage on the reel end... virtually none and the strain is taken at the wrist. Increase the handle modestly and allow the butt to be pressed to gut and the game changes.

Make the rod longer and the handle will also be longer to aid all of the things done with longer rods... Like fighting fish... and the game changes again. Moving fish away from obstructions and toward the beach or net is far more important than how much actual force you might have to apply.

Your mechanical advantage point is real, but like lots of things in the real World it is not the whole picture. Your example of Lee Wulf doing it is noteworthy BECAUSE he went against the obvious mainstream opinion and direct knowledge.

Try to maintain 10# of pull on an anchored gauge with a fly rod... You will be lucky to get close to it and staying there will be problematic. It is not all about how hard you have to pull with a fly rod as very little force is truly applied.

Grayling's jack argument is obviously flawed...
art

Good example. Instead of a 10# weight, try say a 1# weight with a (for example) 7wt rod in 6 and 9 foot lengths. You'll see the smaller rod is easier to lift the weight with.

I get the feeling you are missing the importance of the vector... The highly fusiform fish follows his nose when the force is directed there. Especially in the small creek scenario being discussed, the longer rod lets you change the fish's angle of attack instantly.

Changing vector? I've fished in narrow spring step-acrpss creeks with short (7.5') rods and long (9')rods and never had too many unusual problems bringing a fish to hand with either. The more pressure you put on a fish, the more you can change his direction, and I think you can do that to a greater extent with a shorter rod. However, you can protect your tippet better with a long rod for the same reason which require inverse thinking: you don't put as much load on a fish. A long rod increases your casting distance, which is also irrelvant in a small stream.

Good thing is, there is room for short rods and long rods. I am not a super-short guy myself, 7.5' is my minimum , but the short ones do have an advantage is some situations.

When 'horsing' largemouth bass out of heavy cover give me a 7' two grip rod over a 5 1/2' pistol grip any day.....dramatic difference with the longer rod.

In addition to having two hands to horse the rod, you're also moving the fulcrum forward with the two-grip rod. So yeah, most any two grip rod is better than a one grip rod regardless of length.

Gene
Pretty obvious you are fixated on the wrong answer. Have to believe you will see the difference the first time you get a big fish on a long rod...
art

But, after horsing fish out of debris with a longer rod the fish is fighting the rod and all that flex, with a short rod the fish is fighting the angler (less flex).

Taken to the extreme, I'd rather play a large fish with a 10' rod, not a 3' rod.

Playing a fish and horsing a fish are two different actions. If you're interested in putting a fish in the boat or on the shore, you're better off with a short rod. If you're interested in using a light line or tippet, you're better off with a long rod.

Most bass rods are 6' or so, IIRC. Never seen a 10' bass rod. I think 8' is the maximum length for tournament fishing.

A 5' 2wt. with a 3wt. WF would be a NICE little rig. I think I shall have to look at that, considering some of the rather tight little mountain streams 'round home.

Thanks for the head's up!

I say; "What ever floats your boat". No sense agruing over long vs. short. The whole object to fishing IMHO is to get out and enjoy the outdoors the Good Lord has given us. Fly-fishing in my opinion is the most satisfying way to fish-long or short rod doesn't matter all that much as long as YOU are enjoying the experience. Long and short both have their place according to conditions and needs.

Qtip
Soli Deo Gloria!

Sean, many moons ago I built a 5' 3 wt. on a fenwick blank for creek fishing...Big Fun!!! A 12 incher was a regular rodeo!
Nowadays I use the "big stuff"...6 ft. 3 wts...


Ingwe

I've never been a fan of overlining a rod, but if that's your thing, go for it. Overlining slows a rod down considerably and doesn't give a lot in return, IMO.

I've got a 3wt older St. Croix Legend that will chunk a size 14 fly all day. I've got a Teeny 2-3wt line that does a great job, and a 3wt line from LL Bean (goes to show you how much I use it) that is also great.

I built a 6ft 2wt rod from H&H that's great for about 25-30 feet and #16 and higher flies with the Teeny line, which slightly overlines the rod. But I don't use it nearly as often as the 3wt rods I have. Thing about a 2wt is it's not nearly as versitile as a 3 or a 4. You've got to use small flies or you overpower the rod.

When it comes to rod weights, I believe it's not the size of the water but the size of the fly you intend to cast.

Overlining, for short, confined spaces makes very good sense. Load faster, shorter; roll casts easier.

Can't differ with you on fly size being a dictator of size within reason.

But, for natives in tight streams, fly size is normally FAR from the deciding factor. Getting the damned thing there in the first place, however...

Not trying to convert you, but if you're thorwing a 3wt line, why not a 3wt rod?

BTW, I've fished brookies (Natives, where I come from) all my life. They're not particulary hard to fool in my experience, but do require stealth.

Yep, stealth and a delivery to where they are (and not in the damned laurel and azaleas and ironwood and other stuff where they ain't).

Different approaches to the same result.

Figured in GA that brookies were the target in Nawth Gawja.

Not a "smart fish", but a helluva lot of fun and fine eatin'.

I've got a "short" rod but ya gotta see me werk my fly and spinner.

True. Not the smartest trout but one over 12" inches requires some stealth when presenting the fly. I love catching brookies. Nothing better than a brookie fried in butter for breakfast. I only keep 1 out of 20 or so to eat. Great little fish

I've got a 13' 7/8 spey rod that will chunk a size 2 articulated 6 inch streamer all day.



Small spaces=roll cast...

Yep.

Good to see you back around, Riley.

How's basketball treating you?

Hey TOM, sounds like a fun rig! What reel and line are you going to run?
I'm currently looking at 3wt 7 footers for upper Rogue/Applegate and some of the small feeders.
I want the very lightest reel to hold minimal or no backing and a wt forward line.
Almost that time now, too!

We often fish small streams for huge silver salmon in very tight cover with huge flies. We often live and die by the roll cast in tight spots. I often find myself in the position of showing numbers of folks how to roll a weighted size 2 around a log and into a tea cup.

It ain't no place for a 2wt. I would be willing to bet Blacktail knows exactly the sort of place I am speaking of and has probably spent a lot of time doing the same thing. Others here have done it with me. It is light years more difficult than an ordinary roll cast.

I also do a lot of roll casting with light rods, but here is what I have found... Start with a Wulf triangle taper... It is not WF or even DT in profile, but far more gentle in the taper. It allows casting at any distance. A DT is generally considered a better roll castig line than a WF.

If someone thinks they need to overline for roll casting there is a basic disconnect at work. (sorry Sean ) The best way to fix the disconnect is to learn to roll... In tight places and very short roll casts the extra weight may seem to make it easier, but in reality you are trading ease of getting the line moving for reduced accuracy.

Watch Riley gently roll cast 60' time after time after time and it will remind you of the Winston Churchill line "To shoot a good game of pool shows a well-rounded youth; to shoot too good a game of pool shows a misspent youth." Then watch him cast long with a roll...

Interesting debate here in the long vs short and heavy vs light.

To defend one postion in all circumstances, IMHO, is wrong. There's just too many variables in different applications to say one is better than the other.

I lean more towards a longer rod and lighter leaders, generally speaking, than a short one. Line control is much easier with a longer rod, to a point, even in tight quarters. OTOH, too long is a disadvantage in some circumstances.

I tend to use what allows me the best presentation to catch fish and that's the key. Fighting them comes in second until you start talking about very large, very hard fighting fish. Then shorter wins the battle. It gets to a point where hooking a fish becomes secondary to being able to land a fish.


fish head

Gene,

It's obvious that you've never fought a fish on a two handed fly rod, as you are fixated on the wrong component of leverage. The important bit is not the lever arm from butt to effective tip, but from the butt to grip hand.

Here's an example. I've got a fairly good sized reel that I use for both single and double handed rods. Drag is set at ~7 pounds. Now, with a 13' rod, bent while fighting a fish, my effective lever arm is just under 9'. With a single handed 9' rod, effective lever arm length is about 6'.

With the single handed rod, the grip hand is about one foot up from the butt (which is placed on my torso). Double that for the two handed rod

Thus, the force at the grip hand needed to resist a fish with the single handed 9' rod is 6 feet * 7 lbs/1 foot or 42 pounds. Force needed for the double handed rod is 9 feet * 7 pounds /2 feet = 31.5 lbs. Add the fact that I get a huge advantage in being able to direct the force vector to the fish's disadvantage on top of the decrease in force needed, and the longer rod wins the contest every time.

This is assuming that the water you're fishing is compatible with the longer rod. I'd not be to likely to use a 13' rod on a stream 20 feet across. Though there was a Silver hen that was in the wrong place at the wrong time...

Now, given a fixed butt to grip hand measurement, as would be the case for boat rods, I'd give the nod to a shorter rod when it comes to doing winch duty.

Scott

It seems obvious to me that you're missing the point of what I said. But no, I've never fought a fish with a two-handed fly rod. However, I have fought fish with two handed rods, quite a number of times.

The point you missed is the FRONT hand which creates the fulcrum for the REAR hand. Try using a long rod with one hand at the rear of the rod and you'll see what I mean. The further up the rod you place the front hand, the more leverage you can generate, however much putting the rod in danger.

I'm glad you agree that the short rod gets the nod for winch duty, since winching a fish is basic to the function of a rod. Using your term here, it's not one most would chose in describing a rod. And force is important to fighting a fish. Vector is somewhat important, I guess, but the force you apply is directly to the fish is IMO more important OVERALL.

It's harder to protect a tippet with a short rod. Why? BEcause you put more force on it in a shorter distance.

Haven't been playing much, just a little during school. Turns into more time hunting and fishing...

The Scientific Angler's Steelhead taper is about the same as the triangle taper as well, I think. It is designed for roll casting and fishing larger flies while still being able to over head cast extremely well. I have one on the way for my switch rod to make sure this is true, so don't quote me on it (yet).

An over lined rod is easier to spey cast. A spey cast is a roll cast that never touches water until the loop is fully curled out (if done correctly...doesn't always happen ;)). Big difference between a spey cast and a roll cast, and I think this may be where much of the confusion is. In the spey cast the heavier line weight is needed to throw 100' of line with 15 feet of back casting room. For example, I run a 500 grain line with 10' of T-14 (Tungsten core sink tip 14 grains per foot) usually. so 640 grains for a 7/8 weight rod where a regular fly line for a 8 weight rod is about 210 grains.

But to maintain the topic, a single hand spey cast is somewhat easier with a heavier line, but the weight in line you over line to spey cast you hurt yourself in overhead casting. A regular roll cast doesn't have the "D loop" to load the rod so the heavier weight isn't needed like it is for a spey cast. Furthermore, a single hand spey cast isn't needed for small stream fishing because you aren't casting far enough to utilize it.

Riley

Gene,

"What we've got here, is failure to communicate"

You've just restated my point, But you haven't realized it yet. Two handed fly rod = longer distance from butt of rod to grip hand. Thus moving fulcrum closer to fish. Thus reducing fishes leverage against you, even though the rod is longer overall. And since two handed Spey/Switch rods are designed for this, it does not endanger the rod.



Well yes, in that case you would lose leverage. But you'd also have to be not very bright to use your two handed rod like a single handed rod. I certainly wouldn't do it when hooked up to a powerful fish that I really wanted. Would you?

Scott

The original question was about short rods, and my statement was that you get more leverage with a short rod. How this transfered to spey rods, I have no idea, but so far as SHORT (or rods in general) rods go, you shorten the effect of the rod whenever you put your hand further toward the tip.

We gave up on trying to correct you, figured it was a waist of time. Now we are talking about line choices for various rods and how overweight lines are not the answer for roll casting.

A waist of time?

You aren't going to agree with us, so why spend the time to argue?

Good idea. You're absolutely wright, I don't want to waist your thyme.

Semantics..


kinda phun to watch....


Ingwe

Casting well and spelling well seem inversely proportional...

How did you know I couldn't cast worth a krapp..?


Ingwe

Hey! Long time no type. How's it going?

It's ready to go! I put a Cabela's store brand WF 2 weight floater and about 25-30 yards of 20 pound braided backing in a Pfleuger Medalist 1492. Seems like a pretty well balanced setup.

I've only cast it out in the driveway so far. It handles 20-30 feet of line nicely. It's QUICK though, so light it doesn't "load up" gradually, it's just "there".

I went over to Glade Creek and then up Carberry last Saturday hoping to find a fish since those are already open. Water was clear but really cold and running hard, still a lot of snow melt. Think it's 3 weeks too early. Man am I ready for summer to get here.

Tom

PS: regarding 7 foot 3 weight rods, go over to Sportsman's Warehouse and check out the St Croix Avid on the rack. If you don't buy it I may have to. Man that is one sweet little rod.

I bought a TFO Lefty Kreh series 6' 2wt last year and love the little thing. I ran the body count up pretty good last season, but haven't hooked a hog yet.

http://www.templeforkflyrods.com/products/rods/signature.html

IMO it's a darned nice little rod for the money, and I'm not good enough yet to appreciate a $600 rod anyway.

Yeah, LOL.... Sportsman knows me by name now. I've been trolling the fly rods pretty heavy!

I think I'm going to pull the plug on the TFO Professional.
7'6", 3wt, 4 pc and throw the little Okuma SVL reel with RIO Gold wff on it.

It'll see duty in my DB on the Rogue, mostly. I want to get back up to the upper river, above Prospect...etc, and upper Applegate as well. Too much river, not enough time.

I use my old Browning 7' 5wt on everything short of anchors, because I love the way it works. Really want to give a 3wt a whirl!

As a side note: I booked with Gary Lewis, on the Umpqua in July for his smallie trip. 3wt fly rods and ultra light spin outfits.
Hoping to learn a lot and go DIY from then on.

Good typin at cha!

GLADE CREEK!!

Now there's an adventure!! Gotta kick bigfoot outa the way to git to the water!

Four Bit, is another neat place to work that 2wt...and the outlet from Willow, while your in that country. I used to do well at each years ago.

The Lil Applegate was a hoot too, till one of my pard's mentioned that it's "closed" to fishing....! It was like casting in a tunnel and real peaceful.....Haa!

I have the 7'6" TFO Pro in a 2wt... and it is fine as long as there is NO wind. It is a little soft and slow for my likes. It takes quite a bit of effort to keep any amount of line airborne... Big grayling are a serious hoot with it though.
art

Sitka,

I thought about a 2 wt, but I just don't think it'll have the backbone I want for the way I fish.
I throw probably 90+ percent nymphs and a ton of those are weighted.
I tend to abuse my rods, asking them to do things they're not designed for.

I want a 3 wt to add to the bag, along with my previously mentioned 5 wt and the 7 wt that I use on steelhead.
That 7 see's almost all it's use pulling flies or plugs from the DB.

I'm not a fan of long rods (over 8'ish)simply because I fish from the boat most of the time or it's a small stream.....
Maybe when I retire in a couple of years, I'll try conventional fly fishing for our half pounders on the Rogue.

From what I've heard from ODFW, the fish only get to about 6". Since the min. length is 8", that means catch and release. It's so brushy it's hard to cast ... anything.

Yeah, that country has a full dose of creepy. Think I'll just leave it at that.


I'll check that out!


Were you above the mouth of Glade Creek or down below where the houses are? That upper end has changed hands, used to be it was ok to go up past the gates, just behave. The new owners don't seem to like folks up there though.

I tell you one thing I've learned, there's a lot less competition if you're fishing closed waters.

Tom

An old guy gave me his Orvis split cane fly rod when he learned of my desire to fly fish. It was a 5 ft. "Mighty Mite" from the mid-1960's, built for a 5 wt. line. I kid you not. Not knowing any better, I taught myself to fish with that rod. 30 years later finds me with more varying length fly rods than a sane man needs, but that little bugger, with an old Orvis Flyweight reel and Wulff TT #5 line, still gets its fair share of stream time.

Wow! A 5' 5wt!
Your either going to learn "good form" or take up golf!

I was throwing a sofa pillow with my 7' 5wt in the wind the other day..... I had to lead my target like a clay bird!

I was under rod'ed by a lot and should have used the 7wt, but the 5 is so much more fun to fight with...

{{Were you above the mouth of Glade Creek or down below where the houses are? That upper end has changed hands, used to be it was ok to go up past the gates, just behave. The new owners don't seem to like folks up there though.

I tell you one thing I've learned, there's a lot less competition if you're fishing closed waters. smile smile}}
_________________________________________________________________
Tunnel Ridge country.

I would scout blacktails from some landings until about 10am or so and then drop down to the crick..... pretty stupid, really.
I do know how to read. Now days I'd just go a bit further down the road and play in the main stream.

And yes! It was very peaceful....... Haa!

With no one to teach me, it took a few frustrating days on the lawn to get to the point where I could finally lay out a decent cast. You're right, there is no forgiveness in a rig like that.

I lived close to Carlisle, Pa. back then (late 70's). On one of my early forays on the Letort (another frustrating venue for a beginner) I ran into Vince Marinaro who took one look at my rig, looked at me like I had two heads and walked away muttering. I didn't know who he was at the time and thought he was just an old opinionated curmudgeon (which he was). It was Charlie Fox (who by then spent most of his stream-time sitting on his bench down by the water) who kindly suggested I might be better off with a longer rod.

I got my start as a grade schooler in our back yard ( late 50's ) casting a bamboo rod that ( I was told ) came back from Korea with an Uncle.

I popped off a lot of flies and leaders back then, but still thought it was fun. That old rod made it all the way through high school with me and then disappeared....

The rod came in a wood case with compartments in it for other gear. The reel was a Pflueger Medalist, of course.

Lots of GIs brought back bamboo rods from Japan, and they were in boxwood boxes. They came with a few flies and a couple of bobbers. You see them occasionally advertised on ebay. The boxes were made by hand and were nicer than the rods, some pretty good artwork on them.

I had a 9' bamboo rod as a kid myself. It was Japanese made, cheap, not in a box but from a hardware store. It was pretty bad, very heavy.

With you on the Japanese and GI rods, but the cases were never boxwood. Box is among the hardest of woods and very dense. It is the origin of the word box, but originated from its use for tough, strong, hard, and heavy turned containers for tiny religious icons and possibly very early coins.

The wood used in the rod cases I have seen have been aspen, paulownia, ash (tamo), or soft maple. I have heard of beech being used but have not seen it.

Yes, I was using boxwood in the sense of boxes, didn't think of it in terms of genus or species types. Boxwood (capital B) is hard.

What I saw was a white wood fairly soft in the Japanese rod boxes. I'm not sure maple or aspen grow in Japan, but maybe they do. I haven't seen ash used, it has a distinctive grain pattern that would be hard to mistake.

This one was a hardwood of some sort..from the memory of an 8 year old. I'd love to have the whole thing back.

It was supposedly brought home by my mothers youngest brother, who served in Korea during the conflict. He came home a mess ( PTSD, sick and with horrible memories ).

The rod itself cast better than I could. I have no idea what wt it was....maybe 6 or 7 I suppose. I caught a lot of fish on that old thing and wished I'd had a better appreciation for it's family value and history. It had two tips, so you could vary it's overall length and line weight, I assume.....

Some were fly/spin combos. Here's a link about occupation bamboo rods: http://en.allexperts.com/q/Fishing-1634/2009/3/Value-vintage-rods-1.htm

Interesting Link, Gene. Thanks!

Capitalized species was dropped quite a few years ago as proper by virtually all style guides. Boxwood would not be capitalized even when named to the specific...

Japan is actually noted for its red maples which have produced many lace-leaf cultivars... And poplar is a common native Japanese tree. Japan is extremely protective of trees and has the highest forested percentage of any country.

Japanese ash, which they call tamo is not as distinctive as the American ash species, but is commonly found in Japanese musical instruments. It would be easy to mistake in some cases.

Art;

What is paulownia going for these days? Any idea? The stuff is everywhere in the rural areas I frequent, and some of it has got some fairly good saw log potential.

I do not have a copy of a recent wholesale lumber price guide, but those seldom list specialty stuff... The Japanese have always been the center of the paulownia market, though. It would be an ideal wood for a non-specialist to look at marketing due to its incredibly forgiving nature while drying.

No need to kiln, and air-dry enough to sell in a few months...
art

I thought red maple was an American species. There's Japanese maple, of course. I've seen it as an ornamental. Poplar sounds like the boxwood I saw; my mother in law's brother brought back two or three from Japan in occupation time. Never used so far as I know.

What I saw was light-colored and I can't remember a grain at all. Cedar, maybe, but it didn't smell like cedar.

Rule of thumb on wood ID says hardwoods (angiosperms) are easy to ID macroscopically and difficult to ID microscopically... while gymnosperms are easy to ID under power, but tough without...

In lumber form "red maple" is commonly used interchangeably with "soft maple", though it is technically incorrect. The fact red maple is one of the most common eastern trees has everything to do with that. I believe I remember the Japanese species are all relatively soft. Their commercial species are all "soft maple" when lumber.

Not all cedar smells, too... Our AK yellow cedar smells nothing like TN cedar, or red, or anything else... stinky stuff!

I only saw two boxes, by no means a representitive sample, and probably from the same maker. That was a long time ago.

I suspect in the post-WW II/Korean War era, Japanese used whatever wood they could salvage. Might be the wood originally came from a U.S. packing crate.

There have been auctions of similar sets, sometimes with a few flies and sometimes with bobbers or spinning lures offered on Ebay. None currently. You'd think a spin-fly combos were limited to Asia, but they were offered here in the US in fiberglass by at least local maker and at least one brought at VERY high prices. I was looking for vintage fiblerglass rods and saw one that sold for more than $1.2K apparently to someone who collects them or something. It was a rare brand name thing, I guess.

i love to work with small rods they are a blast last summer myself and a few of the friends (sitkadeer and akgrayling) took a trip up north on the denali highway and fish some creeks that were no more than 5 feet wide i used my 6 foot 3 weight and had a blast its a great rod i use it on the lakes here in anchorage all the time and have caught up to about 20 inch rainbows on it and several 20 inch grayling on it and it handled them fine

Hate to redredge the short v long rod debate but there was something I wanted to mention. In order to accurately compare fighting ability you have to compare rods of similar stiffness. There's no question a full size spey rod is going to be able to whip a fish faster than a 6' 3wt single hander for example. You're talking about a rod designed to cast 600gr of fly line long distance vs 100gr very short distance. The stiffness difference is simply too great for the shorter rod advantage to overcome.

If you want to make an accurate comparison, compare a 6' 3wt vs 14' 3wt or more realistically (rods that are actually made) a 14' 9wt to say an 8.5' 12wt. The long rod has some advantages, being able to keep the line off rocks, etc but in terms of sheer muscle on the fish (which is what turns them, tires them out quickly, etc), the shorter rod of comparable stiffness wins hands down.

I'm a big fan of double handed rods for a lot of reasons and of course I'm not going to take an 8.5' 12wt for my next steelhead trip because fish fighting ability isn't top priority. On the other hand I'm not taking a Spey rod for my next Tarpon trip either where fish fighting ability really is an issue.

How does one fight a fish with a two-handed rod? I've never used one, as I stated earlier, but don't see how a person can manage the line and the fish with both hands on the butt of the rod.

It's actually not all that much different. Think of it like a single hand rod with a long fighting butt. To keep one hand free for reeling and handling line you can brace the lower end of the rod on your forearm or put the rod butt into you belly "saltwater style". They're cast with two hands but often handled with just one during the swing, stripping line, fighting fish etc.

That's what I thought. Thanks.