Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Dogzapper---.25-06?

Steve,
Several times, you have mentioned a certain .25-06 as being one of your currently most-used rifles for big game. Tell me about it and the load(s) you use in it. Thanks, RS

Yeah, I'm planning on building a 25-06 regular or AI sometime in the future, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Hey Rip,

As far as I am concerned, the .25-'06 has antelope written all over it. Yeah, you can kill 'em with larger cartridges and smaller cartridges. When you get serious about antelope, and they are my favorite big game animal, the BIG .25s, the .25-'06 and the .257 Weatherby will really reach out there and swat the goats.

Actually, I've killed a number of Montana mule deer and a few big northern whitetails (Alberta) with the .25-'06 and it is a sure killer on them, as well.

My bullet of choice is the 100-grain Ballistic Tip and my Pac-Nor barrel simply dotes on 58.0 grains of RL-22. Muzzle velocity is very slightly over 3,500 fps. Sighted 2" high at 100, it is a long ways out there before it requires significant holdover.

The load is probably hot, but I can fire a single Winchester case ten times and the primer pocket is still tight. No extraction problems. Safe in my rifle, but you should work it up in your individual rifle barrel. There, now I said all the legal stuff.

Typically, I shoot goats about 5" to 6" behind the shoulder crease, to save the shoulders. The entrance hole is one-inch with a one-inch ring of bloodshot. The exit hole is two-inches, with a one-inch ring of bloodshot. The heart is almost always de-bagged by the passage of the bullet (happened four times out of four goats we shot this year) and the lungs are total dogmeat.

I simply cannot think of a better antelope combination. If we draw Montana goat tags again next year, the .25-'06 and 100-grain Ballistics will be precisely the combination we will use.

Frankly, and lots of very experienced hunters will disagree, I've had much better killing with the both the 100-grain Hornady Spire and the 100-grain Ballistic than the various 117- and 120-grain bullets. Heck, you can totally penetrate a big northern whitetai, from midline (at the diaphram) to the far shoulder with the 100s and they are DEAD.

Anyway, you wanted my thoughts.....and you got 'em. Love the heck out of the .25-'06, my friend.

Steve

I admit I have never owned or hunted with a 25-06 but I have a couple friends who do and the report the same thing you do: 100gr bullets work the best. Both prefer Speer Hot Cores to your Ballistic Tips but maybe they haven't shot the BT's.

I just don't know about Ballistic Tips. I hear all the time both sides of the arguement. They kill and penetrate or the blow up and wound. Leaves me scratching my head. I've shot boxes of them in about every rifle I own because they are accurate, but I have never killed biggame with them. I've seen them blow small holes in a coyote with 150 BT's from my m88 308 Win. The velocity from 44grs H4895 runs them about 2700fps. The small exit hole on a coyote tells be they would work fine on deer. To me, coyotes are a good inditator on terminal ballistics: If they leave a realitive small exit hole in a coyote, they would make a good hunting bullet. If they leave big holes in coyotes, then they might be prone to violent expansion on biggame. I use this theory but realize it has holes, for a 130gr Partion will nearly cut a yote in half from my 270 if the range is close, yet they do shoot through most broadside deer.

I have often contemplates using more Ballistic Tips on game to find for myself.

CM

Combineman,

The Ballistic Tips have gone through several "generations." What was true ten years ago was wrong five years ago. A person who found the BTs to be "soft" five years ago would not find it so today. The BTs of today work very well.

It is a good idea to NOT hit a big game animal with a terminal velocity exceeding 3,000 fps with a Ballistic Tip, but if a critter is that close, I'll head or neck shoot him anyway.

Karen and I harvested this years four antelope at 306, 321, 322 and 359 yards. This is pretty typical of our prairie ranges on goats.

Antelope have the reputation of being easy to kill.....just ask anyone who hasn't killed a dozen or so <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Those of us who have shot a bunch of them surely know that they are tough little critters and we need to really get their attention with a bullet.

Actually, the Speer 100-grain is a heck of a bullet. For some reason, the Speer doesn't have the reputation among hunters, but they are excellent game-getters.

Steve

I just wanted to chip in with an echo of agreement with Dogzapper. I too have used the 25-06/100 gr. BT combination with great success. Over the years I've had many people tell me that the 100BT is too light, too fast, or not built well enough. Despite that my 25 has an impeccible record on a few antelope, and a modest amount of BIG deer, with large body weights. I think it has to with the precision of the bullet, comfort with recoil, and efficiency of the bullet weight/powder cap. The ballistic tips have always performed well and cleanly killed the game. I even performed a test involving a bowling ball after I was told that ballistic tips don't penetrate. Kind of a stupid test I know, but the results were amazing to me. Great caliber, great bullet.
Scott

ScottM:

You write: "I even performed a test involving a bowling ball after I was told that ballistic tips don't penetrate. Kind of a stupid test I know, but the results were amazing to me."

Tell us more man, don't leave it hanging!

BMT

Steve, I love my 25-06 as well, a win 70 with a shilen douglas stainless barrel at 24". originally, I shot 120 partitions, switched to 115 partitions and recently bought a box of 117 hornady sst as my powder scale was wacking out on me. shout a nice deer with the 117 sst last weekend (that's a different story). I have never been disappointed in the 25-06 and it is a real joy to shoot. I have used the 100 gr hornady in the 240 weatherby and it is an excellent bullet. as much as I like the 240, it is so similar to the 25-06 that it is a bit redundant. have you ever tried the 120 hornady hp?

,257Bob,

I've shot the 120 Hornady HP at the range and it shoots very well. Never have gotten around to killing any deer/antelope with it.

I HAVE killed several deer and antelope with the 120 Nosler Partition. They take the bullet and either waddle off (or run off) and die thirty seconds later. Thirty seconds can put an antelope three hundred yards away and if we are in canyon country a deer can get tough to recover.

The 100s, either Ballistic Tip or Hornady Spire, simply ELECTROCUTE the critters. Hey, we get absolutely total penetration, holes through both sides, regardless of the angle, so I see absolutely no reason for a heavier bullet than the 100.

Speed kills.

Steve

Steve, I am looking for education here on this subject. wouldn't a heavier bullet, in the same construction - say a 117 hornady spire point vs a 100 hsp, penetrate further? I really don't know the answer here but I wish I had bought the 120 rem ck instead of the 117 sst last week. results ended up ok but I have lost a bit of confidence in the sst. I loaded some hhps and they grouped to the same point of impact as the factory sst. I really need to shoot a deer with the hhp.

thanks for the help.

jim

Jim,

I have never, ever recovered a 100-grain Ballistic Tip or 100-grain Hornady from an antelope or a deer. I've used the .25-06 and Karen uses her .250 Ackley and the bullets sail through every time.

Heck, Karen even killed a couple of elk with her lowly .250 Ackley and 100-grain Ballistics. Lung shots with a two-inch exit hole out the far ribs.

I guess my question is as follows: How much penetration does a bullet need, granted that it has good construction? One of my antelope does this year was weirdly positioned. It was kind of a bank shot and she was feeding. Because of the angle, I shot her waaaay behind the shoulder and the bullet exited a few inches behind the ear. The bullet entered at the diaphram, coursed the body, ran the neck and popped out. Two-inch exit and not a lot of meat loss. Perfect.

I really expected the 100 Ballistic to stop in the neck, but it kept on cutting through meat (broke the neck bone too). Anyway, I'm a believer and this experience (and a bunch in the past) have me convinced that 100s are the way to go.

Yeah, I suppose, in theory, that the heavier bullet would penetrate further than lighter bullets. BUT (big but) don't forget that the velocity is lower on the heavies and, depending on the bullet construction, that might also affect penetration.

One of the things I really like about the 100s is that they shoot considerably flatter than the 117s and 120s. We get a lot of open country, way the heck across the prairie shots, here in the West and a flat trajectory is a great aid in hitting.

Have no doubt that the 100 Ballistic and the 100 Hornady Spire are freaking killers.

Hope this helps.

Steve

While I have killed quite a few antelope and truck loads of deer, my experience with .25 BT's is limited to this season. I killed 3 lopes and 1 whitetail with the 100gr BT's. All were one shot kills. Two were "dead right now" and the other two animals sprinted dead on their feet, but were spraying blood all over the country side. I was very impressed and plan to do even more hunting with my .257 Weatherby next year using the same .25 100gr BT's. My 257 Weatherby is unfortunately very heavy. I enjoyed the bullet performance so much this year that I'm thinking real hard on having a light "carry rifle" built in .257 Weatherby.

Friend Big Sky,

Great minds think in the same gutter. I'm contemplating a light, say 8 to 8�-pound field ready, .257 Weatherby. Of course, built for the 100-grain Ballistic.

I hear you about the entertainment value. My horned doe was larger than either of our bucks. Huge. Anyway, I shot her through both lungs at 359 yards and she started running in a very tight circle. Her buddy, another large doe, was running right along-side. They looked like two race horses, each trying to get ahead of the other. My holed doe was spurting blood out both sides like a fire-hose and blowing blood all over her buddy.

Finally the doe died, after running two or three circuits of the 30 yard circle and collapsed in a cloud of dust....all four feet in the air. The other doe stopped and looked at her, wondering why the fun race was over.

I looked at the remaining doe through the scope and she must have had two gallons of blood splashed on her side and back. It was then that I commenced laughing.

I'm sorry, Big Sky, I totally lost it. I was laughing so damned hard that my belly hurt and I was in severe danger of pissing myself. All the time, my bride of forty years is yelling, "Kill the other one, kill the other one, it's standing right there."

Heck, I couldn't have whacked the remaining doe if my life depended on it. My bride, of course, thought I was an idiot, but soon she was out of control, as well.

After a couple of minutes, the other doe wandered off. Surprisingly, she was the doe that we shot a couple of hours later, as we were slipping and sliding out in the rain and inch-deep gumbo. That was the diaphram-to-ear shot that I described earlier. She still had blood on her side and it was the opposite side from the one where I planted the bullet.

Gad, how would I ever write about this in one of the gun funnybooks? No editor would publish it and the majority of Blue State readers would think I am a whacko. You, being a correct-thinking Montana fella, can totally understand and laugh right along with me. Gad, it is too precious not to share. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yeah, the 100 Ballistic is definitely worth the entertainment value. Heck of a great bullet and an absolute stone killer.

Steve

i shot a muley doe with a 115 BT this year. it she gave up the ghost right there on the spot. im really impressed with the 25-06, its got a lot of jam for little buck. need to use it more next year. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Those are exactly the same results I get on Texas Whitetails with my 25-06 and 100 gr Sierra bullets.

When I was remodeling a home I found an old bowling ball that had been left behind. Since I'm not an avid bowler the first thing that came to mind was "what would a bullet do to this?" I took the ball to the gravel pit and set it out to 75 yards. Having been told that BT's blow up at close yardages I was curious what it would do. By the way I agree with being careful on game at close range with high velocity . I shot my 25-06 with 100gr BT's, a 270 with 140 SST's, and my 300 WM with 190gr Sierra HPBT's.
Penetration= 100BT's: 3.75 in., 140 SST's: 2 in., 190 HPBT's 3.5 in.
The only bullet I weighed after was the BT. Given there was some molten material in it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />, but it retained approx. 67% It was the second shot into the ball and it cracked the damn ball. Like lightning struck. Have you guys ever seen the inside of a bowling ball. I don't know what it is, but it is dense!
Maybe the results were because of the order I shot, or the proximity to the finger holes, I don't know.
This was not a scientific test, just an addition to your "Gee Whiz" collection. The results really surprised me and I have little or no explanation. It sure was fun though.

Scott,

I think that sometimes certain bullets suprise us in performance. Sounds like them BT's do shoot good in the 25 cal. I will add that a friend of mine once told me he shot a bowling ball with his 300 Savage and a 180gr Nos. Partition and it penetrated over 6 inches and stayed together into what looked like a picture perfect mushroom.

I've always wanted to punch through a bowling ball with a 350gr Hard Cast LBT from my 45 Colt Linebaugh sixgun to see if I can do it. I shot right through a buffalo bull once and that bullet zoomed right through and made a metal sounding clank when it hit a metal gate. The Buff got up on his tippy toes for half an eye blink then fell over. I watched the same friend shoot another buff with a 310gr Keith style SWC cast bullet from his 45 Colt. The buff was face on and took the bullet just clipping his chin, entering the neck, reducing 2 feet of buffalo vertebrea to bone puzzle, through the chest (lungs), through the paunch (no 7mag in the world will make it through the paunch of a buffalo) and through the round steaks, stopping just under the hide about a foot below his ying yang. The was the deadest buffalo you ever saw fall to the ground.

So, I tend to compare all penetraion qualities to what I see good hard cast bullets do out of a good sixgun. Still not too impressed with high velocity rifle rounds.

CM

Combineman

That is some impressive terminal performance on the 45's. Off the 25 subject, but what are you shooting these hot loads out of (revolver, lever, singleshot)?. Very interested. I have little experience with heavy hunting type cast bullets but love the 45 Colt. I have a beautiful 1873 lever that won't allow me to shoot the heavy loads but have been curious about getting another to do just the type of hunting you're talking about.

Back to the 25 though, I tend to agree each caliber has a "sweet spot" when it comes to bullet weight. My 250AI thrives on the 100 BT also. They both handle other weights well, but there seems to be a niche for the 100's. It has been the most well balanced combination for me.


PS-My money would be on the 350 hardcasts moving the bowling ball more than penetrating through it. You would know more than I. A fun thought. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I own 4 45 Colt sixguns, all of the Rugers and one is a custom Linebaugh built SBH Ruger.

It is hard for many to beleive the potential of a heavy cast bullet shot out of a sixgun. I was sold into "sixgun slavery" about 14 years ago. The friend I mentioned is close friends to John Linebaugh, the custom gunsmith who have us the real potential of the 45 Colt (Dick Casual did much for us too) and also gave us the 475 and 500 Linebaugh rounds.

Your right, to see this potential, one must have a good sound gun. The 45 needs good sixguns like the Ruger to safely handle heavy loads.

I can run 325gr and 350gr Cast bullets from my 4 3/4" or 5.5" Ruger Single Actions over 1200fps without trouble or effort. I have been running 405gr Cast bullet at 1000fps. I know it seemd they would just push the bowling ball away. I doubt it would but like I said, I want to try. They will shoot through a log cabin at half a mile though. That I have seen. (the log cabin was abandoned incase you were wondering)

No kidding. One must see it to really beleive it.


Back to the real subject: I have thought about a 257 Weatherby Vanguard (as I own a 300 Weatherby Vanguard). Is it going to gain me much over the 25-06 given the weatherby only has a 24" barrel? I've been thinking about picking up a 25 cal as a pick up rifle for Idaho. Mostly I pick off distant cats off haystacks and the 243 and 22-250 doesn't hold up in the wind. I'd also like enough gun for distant yotes.

So many guns and so little money.

CM

Well I like my 25/06, used it since the start of the 80's, and have mostly used 117 and 120 grain bullets.
I think I will have to try the 100 grainers and see how she likes them.
But it is one of my favourite ones, right up there with my 270 Win.