Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Savage Collectors 1899 to 99 transition

The question of "is it a Model 1899 or a Model 99" has come up a couple of times, recently. I thought I would add some finding and opinions on the subject.

Murray's first book was written in 1977. The book has had a great influence on what we know about the Savage levers and what we call them. But, we need to remember that it is a reference book and subject to error and personal interpretation. As Murray states on page 3-3, the early models were identified only with a description of its characteristics. At that time there was no "Model 1899-A", etc. identifier. It was not till about 1905 that the telegraph and cable code words were added. From these code words came the Model identifying letters (around 1922) that we currently use. It is easier to reference a model letter than a description. Murray set up his book that way and we as students use them, as well.

Models identifiers are pretty clear till after WWI when Savage decided to modernize the 1899 name by making changes and renaming as the Model 99. The model 1899-A became the 99-A, the 1899-A Take-Down became the 99-B, etc.. What is not clear is just when the change occurred and how does one know if it is a Model 1899-A Take-Down or a 99-B.

The best references I have found are Savage catalogs. The most beneficial on this subject are the #61, #62 and #63. In the #61 (1920-21(?)) the 1899 models are by description: Regular Rifle, solid and take-down (TD); Saddle Gun, solid and TD; Featherweight TD; .22 Savage High Power TD and the .250-3000. A later (1921(?)) price list for the #61 includes the new Model 1921 shotgun and a Model 1899 .300 Cal. Pistol Grip, Checkered" rifle (were there any of these made before the 99-G? ). Also should note that the Featherweight is only offered in TD version unlike before the war when it (1899-H) was available in solid and TD.

In the #62 (1922) catalog all models are still listed as Model 1899's but letter identifiers have been added. It is requested in the catalog that when ordering, one is to use the letter designator. The Regular Rifle is now the 1899A and 1899-B (this is the A-TD not the early octagon barrel version); the Saddle Rifle is now the 1899-C and D (not the 1/2 oct or musket); Featherweights are now the 1899-F (not the carbine), the newly added 1899-E. and the Model .250-3000 is now the 1899-G with all the other caliber added.

With the #63 (1923) catalog the identifiers stay the same but the models changes from 1899's to 99's.

I can understand why Murray elected to go back in time and add the letter designators to the early rifles. Also, ignoring the 1922 use of "1899" rather than the new "99" model designation. I'm glad he did! The one area I don't agree with and which might clear some of the confusion is with the introduction of the 99-F and the 99-B. In the book they are listed as being 1920. I disagree. The catalogs do not made the distinction till 1922, the same time as the addition of the �D�, "E" and "G". Somewhere around the 23x,xxx range. We have the serial for the .250-3000 to Model G change and I think the others will be around that serial range, also.
I would guess I probably lost the larger number of you. But maybe the ones that are advanced enough to question the 1899-A, TD vs. 99B and 1899-H vs. 99-F will understand what I�m saying. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Questions? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I got most of what you just said Rick, in fact it helped me out alot.

I've got an 1899H coming in 22 H.P., serial number 2210XX, border line Murray's!!!

So if the F's really didn't start till 1922 there's no guessing as to what it's gonna be. I was just waiting to see if the butt was gonna be rubber or steel to make up my mind but your info ruled that out now.

The 99B's and 1899A's are a gamble when I see one listed and it's always just a guesstimate on my part as to what it will turn out to be without it being lettered.

So if the records weren't kept with lettered designations back then is J Callahan just going by Murrays book as well when he sends us one on an old rifle (pre 1905)?

Just for arguments sake <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
So if that's the case Rick, my so called 99 250T/D -- F model thats made in 1922 & is stamped 1899 on the reciever, is actually a 1899 as stated by Murray...

"In the #62 (1922) catalog all models are still listed as Model 1899's but letter identifiers have been added. "

Don't mean to be disrespectful to those that know & have seen much more than I, but I believe if it's stamped 1899, that's what it is <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Up till WWI :
1899-A, 26" barrel, take-down would be marked "TD" "R"
1899-B 28" pistol grip .... "PG, 28"" "O"
also would have a production date and a ship date with the company name (only) or person shipped to. Specials were sometimes noted or a workorder number (but all the workorder info has been lost). All the model info is hand written and sometimes very hard to made out till you learn to read it. Some of the logs got wet which doesn't help. Each page is lined like notebook paper with one gun per line.

Senior,

If you have a straight stocked .250 made in 1922 (nice!) you are welcome to call it anything you want. But, if you are talking to a person with a copy of Murray and you tell them you have an 1899-F they will think you have a saddle ring carbine. The "F's" are pretty bad already:
Pre-WWI 1899-F
*Post-WWI 1899-F (a one years listing in the catalogs)
Pre-WWII 99-F
Post-WWII, Pre-1 million 99-F
Post-1 million 99-F

Savage said they were changing the "1899" to "99" in 1918 but then started (1920-1926) stamping 1899 on the receiver ring while listing them as 99's in the catalog. Had Savage only stamped them the one year when changed to "99" I would agree. There is also a period right before 1922 that neither "1899" nor "99" was stamped on the rifle, anywhere. What do we do with them? I would guess that Murray elected to not talk about it because it was too confusing and cataloged for only the one year.

I understand your point and agree that it exists but see it more as an error in Savage's logic in marking. It's for sure not the first error in logic that has been found.

Anyone else have a view...or does anyone even know what we are talking about? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Another great thread !!!

Thanks for bearing with me;

"If you have a straight stocked .250 made in 1922 (nice!) you are welcome to call it anything you want. But, if you are talking to a person with a copy of Murray and you tell them you have an 1899-F they will think you have a saddle ring carbine. The "F's" are pretty bad already:"

I agree 100% it can get confusing <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

In Murrays description of the 99-F, it's states very clearly --
MODEL 99 MARKING --SAVAGE (on frame ring top)
MODEL 99

So by his own definition mine doesn't fit there either <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
I wasn't aware the 1899 on the reciever was on guns after about 1923? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Are there later 99-Fs with that stamping?

Question; Are there any other lettered 99 models between 1920? & say 1926 that also have the 1899 reciever stamping?

grin: <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Rick,

I understand Savage wanting to switch from 1899 nomenclature to 99. The confusing part for me is the fact they reuse letters that previously meant a different model. The 1899A (standard 26" round barrel) now called a 99A makes sense. But...to call the 1899A takedown a 99B does not make sense to me. I think it would have been less confusing if they had just retired the letter B and called the rifle a 99A TD. Then we could always think of a B as octagon barrel. Likewise with the C & D. But, like you say, look at the many different F models over the years. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

This is interesting information and thanks for putting it out for us. I have printed a few threads in the past and put them in Murray's book for easy reference. This one will be going the same direction.

I have read Murray's book and several of the catalogs at least a dozen times and totally missed the identifier thing. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> So I read Murray's book again last night and I noticed on P-1 that he gave himself some wiggle room on the serial number data and the dates of introduction and discontinuances.

"Therefore, kindly be aware that serial number data and dates of introduction and discontinuence are approximate and may vary by a year or so. Especially those models manufactured prior to the 1930's."

I will have to agree with Jed because this is a great thread. Thanks Rick! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Senior,

Murray also stated that the 99-F started in 1920 at around 200,000 serial number. This was way before the receivers were stamped "Model 99". Your rifle fits just fine. You could say you have the early 99-F version with the small 1899 stamping. Remember, it is only a reference book. But these catagories have been set and we are kind of stuck with the way models are grouped. Murray just left out that some are stamped "1899". That is why I started this thread.

The addition of the small 1899 stamping on the receiver ring was started and stopped at about the same time on ALL models. There were several across the board model changes made after WWI.

Thanks for asking the questions. This is good. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Jack,

Before WWI, Savage didn't call the 1899-A an "1899-A". It was a 26" round barrel, solid framed rifle. It was around 1905 when Savage added the code words that the "letters" originated and even then they did not call it an 1899-A. But, the code words for that model, a round barrel rifle, started with "A", The octagon barrel started with "B", carbines startd with "F", Featherweights with "H". I think some where along the line, Murray or before, these early models picked up the "1899-A" type name. It was just easier to say. The first "1899-A" didn't appear in print till the 1922 catalog and it was actually what we call the "99-A". Remember, Savage the manufacturering Co. lived in the present while collectors live in the past. Savage didn't care what it called a past product but the collectors do. If you wrote a Savage book and sold enough copies you could probably change the hole model naming system to what ever you wanted it to be if it was easier to remember. I think that is what happened with the Murray book.

Rick,

Thanks for reminding me of that. In fact Murray on page 3-3 references the fact that the early rifles didnot have model designations and then two pages later he has a chart where he has given all models a number/letter designation. You are right, if you write a book I guess you can call them what you want..... So, what will you call these pre WW1 rifles in your new book? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I just went through my 1900 catalog Rick, I see what you mean now by "no model designation". <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Just for my own information or clearity could someone pitch in with some answers to my questions <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I wasn't aware the 1899 on the reciever was on guns after about 1923? Are there later 99-Fs with that stamping?

Are there any other lettered 99 models between 1920? & say 1926 that also have the 1899 reciever stamping?

Thanks <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> (man these smileys suck <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />)

Hi,

To answer part of your question...

Model 99-G in 303 Sav. Marked 1899. serial 2385xx -1922

Chris

Fellow Savage 99'ers,

I've got one here for y'all.

26 " round barrel
stright grip butt stock
30-30 caliber
Rocky mtn front sight
flip-up type ladder rear sight
curved butt plate
NO MODEL NAME OR LETTERS

..keep your powder dry..
.

Sounds like a model 1899A and a 1899D got left in the closet to long and they had offspring?

Do you have any pics of the ladder rear sight?

Also, do the numbers under the buttplate, buttstock and forearm match the reciever serial number?

mad dog,

Nope no pictures of the sight.

Yep the serial numbers match.

I've had this ol' girl field stripped and she shoots damn good. I have trouble with that silver Rocky mtn front sight, hard to see when the light hits it. This one has been with the rifle family for a few years.

Senior,

As I stated above "The addition of the small 1899 stamping on the receiver ring was started and stopped at about the same time on ALL models. There were several across the board model changes made after WWI.". I think the markings start around 226xxx and end between 278xxx and 283xxx. I have a C, G and F(1925) with the small 1899 marking.

May be we can get some others to verify my data. Anyone else with a rifle(s) in the 1921-1926 period?

Ny 250 savage, model F, serial #239xxx, (1922) is stamped "SAVAGE 1899 MODEL" in small letters on top of the receiver ring.