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Trailboss loads are intended for reduced velocity practice loads, without compression. They are not intended to replicate regulation MVs. BTW I suspect you'd have a tough time stuffing enough TB in most common NE cases to reach regulation MVs.


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Try it with and without crimping. First time you try it without, load both rounds, fire one, then check the unfired round's OAL. Chamber tolerances can vary enough that crimping may very well matter. I don't think there are absolutes when it comes to doubles--and they are certainly too expensive to fiddle around with unless you control as many variables as possible.

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Actually Bob, once I get the dies I was depending on you to fire the test rounds to help develop the load...


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Watch out Bob; it's a melody that once caught is expensive.

Interesting quote.

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Originally Posted by goodnews

Watch out Bob; it's a melody that once caught is expensive.

Interesting quote.


LOL! Think I'll watch you...you are young and tough! grin

Haha! Meant to quote Anthony and quoted Goodnews instead...oops!

Last edited by BobinNH; 04/06/10.



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Originally Posted by Wildcatter264
Trailboss loads are intended for reduced velocity practice loads, without compression. They are not intended to replicate regulation MVs. BTW I suspect you'd have a tough time stuffing enough TB in most common NE cases to reach regulation MVs.


Right. You will be way over pressure by the time you get the velocity you want. And you can get enough TB in to cause pressure issues. 5744 works for light plinker loads. But that's no fun!


(Side Note) grin grin grin My NEW Searcy 450NE will be here tomarrow grin grin grinaccording to 'Big Brown'.. Thursday it'll be barking!

Last edited by AkMike1; 04/06/10.

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IF YOU INTEND TO HUNT DANGEROUS GAME WITH A DOUBLE RIFLE THEN DO CRIMP YOUR AMMO.

I have seen recoil jump a bullet forward and it stuck in the lands and the ejectors kicked out the case leaving powder bullet and a kynoch filler in the chamber, and the gun was non functional in a charge, fortunatly the PH and I killed the bull with a heart and brain shot respectively at the last minute when we realized what was happening. He slid to the hunters toes and push a big gob of dirt over his tennis shoes!! He couldn't even talk for 15 minutes..Said he couldn't even run..

When I load for a double rifle the first thing I do is turn down the expander ball until I have a very snug fit, I usually remove about .003 to .004 and polish it. I load all my doubles to hunt with and I always strive for a full case of powder but not to a crunch..I either use a case full of IMR-4831 as it fills most cases or I use RL-15 but you must use a filler with RL-15 to fill the case. I always trim cases in a FILE TRIM DIE, as it is the most accurate, then I add to the above a very light crimp..the combination of a a tight neck, a case full of powder to form a base for the bullet and a light crimp, gives you the best accuracy and keeps you bullet in place with repeated recoil. You always shoot one barrel more than the other btw...

I would not use Barnes monolithic bullets in a English, German double of yesterday..I would however use GS Customs flatnose solids as they have the pressure release rings around them and don't stress the barrels. I used the GS Customs flat nose solids in my Jefferys and Army-Navy doubles in 450-400...

I would use Barnes in a Searcy, or the modern equivelent..They have busted some barrels in the past, but as far as I know it was always on thin barreled, mile steel early English guns.....

I don't ever want to own a double rifle that shoots minute of buffalo or minute of grapefruit...I want my double rifle to shoot an inch at 50 yards, most will but 2 inches is acceptable. Remember you can hit a buff in the shoulder arean with any kind of double but if he is coming to eat you you want to be able to stick one in his eyeball or on the hairline of his snoot, and thats under 2 inches. Minute of grapefruit will probably miss the brain btw...The first time I read that minute of grapefruit pharse, I thought this guy has shot enough buffalo to know better than that, its cute but very misleading IMO....

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Originally Posted by AkMike1
Originally Posted by Wildcatter264
Trailboss loads are intended for reduced velocity practice loads, without compression. They are not intended to replicate regulation MVs. BTW I suspect you'd have a tough time stuffing enough TB in most common NE cases to reach regulation MVs.


Right. You will be way over pressure by the time you get the velocity you want. And you can get enough TB in to cause pressure issues. 5744 works for light plinker loads. But that's no fun!




I don't know about you, but after 10 to 12 rounds of full power .470NE, I'm done. Besides, and no kidding, enough of this recoil can cause retina's to detach.

The .45-70 equivalent loads, you can shoot them all day and not have things go black.

coolAnyway, I would love to see pics when you get your new toy. Let us know how it shoots!

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Originally Posted by atkinson
IF YOU INTEND TO HUNT DANGEROUS GAME WITH A DOUBLE RIFLE THEN DO CRIMP YOUR AMMO.

I have seen recoil jump a bullet forward and it stuck in the lands and the ejectors kicked out the case leaving powder bullet and a kynoch filler in the chamber, and the gun was non functional in a charge, fortunatly the PH and I killed the bull with a heart and brain shot respectively at the last minute when we realized what was happening. He slid to the hunters toes and push a big gob of dirt over his tennis shoes!! He couldn't even talk for 15 minutes..Said he couldn't even run..



I don't ever want to own a double rifle that shoots minute of buffalo or minute of grapefruit...I want my double rifle to shoot an inch at 50 yards, most will but 2 inches is acceptable. Remember you can hit a buff in the shoulder arean with any kind of double but if he is coming to eat you you want to be able to stick one in his eyeball or on the hairline of his snoot, and thats under 2 inches. Minute of grapefruit will probably miss the brain btw...The first time I read that minute of grapefruit pharse, I thought this guy has shot enough buffalo to know better than that, its cute but very misleading IMO....


Ray-- a couple of things.

First, I would agree that your approach to crimping is certainly the most conservative and one that I would favor if his rifle will correctly regulate.

Second, I made the minute of buffalo crack in an earlier posting. That's all it was, was an off-hand remark (although I didn't say what part of the buffalo wink. It was to demonstrate that while you might not need MOA, that with a little care you can get some incredible groups. On another thread I noted how a scoped 9.3 Chapuis I loaded for could shoot a true regulated R/L minute of angle at 200 yards.

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PM me your email and I'll send you some pics of the Searcy. I can't do it here.


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So I loaded it up and shot yesterday 103, 104 and 105 grains of H4831, Then I went today and shot 105 again, 106 and 107, at 107 I was starting to notice the two groups get closer to about 3", however the individual groups started to spread apart. at 105 I was shooting a 1" group (if I didnt flinch). And at 107 my group spread to 2.5". I learned a lot today and I think I will wait for that book on Shooting the English Doubles to come before I further punish myself and possibly Disconnect my Retina, I could definitely see that as a possibility. Thanks for all the help. Oh and I crimped the case.


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Were the lefts staying on the left and ditto for the rights or were they crossing?
Now try some w/o a crimp.


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Huntaria Setters,
My post was definately not directed at you, that remark in reference to "minute of grapefruit", "minute of buffalo" was actually perpetuated by a well know gun writer and African hunter, and then another gun scribe and it took hold and became gospel for double rifle accuracy and it was a BS remark and fundamentally wrong, and that was my response to the remark by the writters not to you...It is often used in all double rifle conversations unfortunatly..sorry if you took it personally and I apoligize for that.

AJ,
You WILL NOT detach a retina with a .470, it takes a lot more recoil than a .470 to detach a retina, unless you just had surgery..That is a rumor that has been floating around for a couple of years and its just false...I know of only one case in history wherein that took place and the guy was shooting a 505 gibbs IMP. in a 5.5 Lb. rifle, and the recoil in that rifle was so intense it severed a heavy pair of plastic glasses in half on the bridge of my nose with the scope..I was the shooter..The guy I sold the rifle to was a recoil buff that had recent surgery..that gun had more recoil than any 600 N. E. had when it doubled..it was awesome. Lots of .470 have doubled and no eye damage. I have had that happen of several ocassion..don't worry about it.

Also you got your groups down to 3 inches and 2.5 inches. Not too shabby but do you know where you are with 2.5 inches? The only way to know where you are and what your gun is capable of is to shoot a 4 shot group with each individual barrel..THE BARREL THAT SHOOTS THE WORST! is the best your gun will ever shoot with whatever load you settle on. Your worst barrel may only shoot 2.5 iches in which case your finished and all you need to do is adjust your sights to zero...

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They are about an inch below the x. I am going to try it with some shooting sticks next. I had it on a sand bag with my hand under the forend and the butt on another sand bag, sitting down. I am pretty sure I have had enough of that for this week.

Also they have not yet crossed paths. The total group is about 5-6".

I didnt really think it would tear my Retina out, but it is good conversation. Someone once told me I could get a hair line fracture in my skull if I shot my 50bmg more than 20 times in a day.


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tell us again what the target distance is compared to the mfg stated regulation distance (usually 50 or 70M) ??



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Ray,

Thanks. I appreciate the clarification.

If you do not have not eyesight problems, I agree the risk is absolutely minimal. But as some of us age, it can be problematic. In my case, I already have some symptoms of retinal detachment even without shooting. I have to be careful because after shooting heavy recoiling guns (light 12 ga slug guns actually seem to be the worst) for a while, I either see flashes or things go black at the instant of recoil. This is a warning sign.

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Originally Posted by AJcaturano
They are about an inch below the x. I am going to try it with some shooting sticks next. I had it on a sand bag with my hand under the forend and the butt on another sand bag, sitting down. I am pretty sure I have had enough of that for this week.

Also they have not yet crossed paths. The total group is about 5-6".

I didnt really think it would tear my Retina out, but it is good conversation. Someone once told me I could get a hair line fracture in my skull if I shot my 50bmg more than 20 times in a day.


If they aren't crossing, then you already a step ahead, IMO. You might want to try RL 22. Anyway, sounds like a great first day.

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I will check the little regulation info that I have when I get home from work later. Unfortunately they did it with factory Federal Woodleigh, Weldcore, Soft Points. OH well, even though it was just about perfect I would probably screw around with it had they given me the info.


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You might be having the problem because of the sand bags. A DR needs to recoil as if you were shooting off hand. The rifle shouldn't touch anything except flesh and bone. Put your hand under the forearm and wrap around the tubes. But nothing except the shoulder behind it. Sticks will help for this.
In my 450 I haven't seen any difference between the 480 Woodys and Hornadys (in 480 and 500) for punching paper.


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Originally Posted by UtahLefty
tell us again what the target distance is compared to the mfg stated regulation distance (usually 50 or 70M) ??


not to be a pain, but this matters when trying to match the regulation load.

also, I'm a big fan of doing "detail work" like this standing off a set of tripod shooting sticks. Mike is correct that the barrels have to move freely under recoil.



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