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Ok, not really. David Clay is lengthening the action of my 1895 cowboy right now.

In February I had mailed the gun to him with a couple dummy rounds I wanted to it to chamber/cycle. The rounds I sent measured 2.75 COL using .45-90 brass trimmed to 2.3".

Well I got really excited after talking to him yesterday, because he said he has it cycling up to 2.85" COL. If this is true I can used untrimmed .45-90 brass with the 300 grain HP's I normally use (Horandy or Sierra). It will basically be a .45-90 Marlin, the only difference being that a .45-90 COL (for lever rifles)is 2.88" vs 2.85".

Well after I got home I punched the new numbers into my internal ballistics software and came up with a maximum power of 4,700 ft-lbs using a 300 gr HP and Accurate 2450.

I think that is .458 win mag territory in a lever action.

-JR


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JR....Good to know! I am taking my 45/70 Marlin 1895 down to the range today, even though it is raining like cats and dogs here in my area. Yesterday I had a go with the .444 Marlin and it was still on at 75 yards using the Hornaday leverevolution ammo 3 shot group and 2 shots in the bulls-eye tell me all is well with the triple 4.



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If you really want a 458WM in a lever, why not just get a magnum BLR and send it to a good smith for rebarreling?

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Well the .458 uses a 500 gr. bullet and yours is a 300. REALLY big difference unless you are shooting at little things that don't turn around and try to eat/stomp you.

Build a proper .458 like .458 Win did to do it right.

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Originally Posted by JR_Maley
Ok, not really. David Clay is lengthening the action of my 1895 cowboy right now.

In February I had mailed the gun to him with a couple dummy rounds I wanted to it to chamber/cycle. The rounds I sent measured 2.75 COL using .45-90 brass trimmed to 2.3".

Well I got really excited after talking to him yesterday, because he said he has it cycling up to 2.85" COL. If this is true I can used untrimmed .45-90 brass with the 300 grain HP's I normally use (Horandy or Sierra). It will basically be a .45-90 Marlin, the only difference being that a .45-90 COL (for lever rifles)is 2.88" vs 2.85".

Well after I got home I punched the new numbers into my internal ballistics software and came up with a maximum power of 4,700 ft-lbs using a 300 gr HP and Accurate 2450.

I think that is .458 win mag territory in a lever action.

-JR



Do you actualy think that a 300 grainload producing 4700 FPE is equal to a 500 grain bullet producing the same 4700 FPE? Another great example of the uselessness FPE as an indicator of terminal performance



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Originally Posted by 86thecat
If you really want a 458WM in a lever, why not just get a magnum BLR and send it to a good smith for rebarreling?


I bought the 1895CB a couple years ago when I was interviewing with Conoco Phillips in AK thinking I was moving up there. Well the job offer fell through, but I fell in love with the gun. I love that it had the 26" octagon barrel and could hold 10 rounds.

I soon realized the limitations of the .45-70 factory loads and the price of buffalo bore ammo. I then purchased a full handloading play set. Ever since I have been trying to squeeze more range out of these tube magazine safe, barn-door shaped, .458 rounds.

Originally Posted by docbill
Well the .458 uses a 500 gr. bullet and yours is a 300. REALLY big difference unless you are shooting at little things that don't turn around and try to eat/stomp you.

Build a proper .458 like .458 Win did to do it right.


I guess I was really comparing it to a .458 win mag with a 300 grain bullet. Clearly the strength of the .458 win is that its max COL is 3.34" so you can have the big 500 grainers sticking way out of the case. For those of us with repeating firearms the bolt/carrier travel is limited so we don't have the luxury of huge COL's.

I don't hunt for the stompy crushy animals. So far I have only hunted deer with this rifle and it has actually proven to work great for that. I first started seeking more power just to extend the range for deer hunting. I had originally posted this thread not to knock the .458 win, but just because I was proud that my marlin is now in the same neigborhood of power.

Now that being said, at 4,700 ft-lbs of force and 9 quick follow up rounds I think it could hold its own against stompy crushy animals. There will always be a bigger gun no matter what you have (example: .600 NE vs .458 win).

Quick story. Two years ago I shot a doe in the ass with a 2.6 COL .45-70 with a 300 sierra HP(~3,700 ft-lb). It was by far the worst shot I had ever made, but sure as hell that doe dropped right there in its tracks. I can only imagine that the ft-lbs energy combined with a fast expanding 300 hp caused cardiac arrest in the doe. Ever since then when buddies say its overkill for deer I'll tell them that story and say I couldn't think of a more humane way to kill a deer.


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This exit in the rib cage of a bulle Elk is from a 440 grain flast point hard cast from a 500 JRH at 960 FPS for only 888 FPE

Energy figures on a piece of paper mean exactly dick



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Originally Posted by jwp475

Do you actualy think that a 300 grainload producing 4700 FPE is equal to a 500 grain bullet producing the same 4700 FPE? Another great example of the uselessness FPE as an indicator of terminal performance


Yes, I do think: 4700 = 4700

Maybe you meant to ask if the lethality is the same. If so I would say it depends on what you are shooting at. For example read the doe story at the end of my post above. With a 500 grain solid the doe would likely have had a .458" diameter hole straight through it, but nothing lethal. With the fast expanding 300 HP I was able to stop the doe's heart via its butt cheek. With an elephant clearly I would want the 500 grain bullet.

Keep in mind, the 300 grain 2.85" COL was just a scenario I punched into quickload and it told me 4,700 ft-lbs was the upper limit of what it could do. I haven't actually received the gun back and chronied it, nor have I punched 400, or 500 grains into quickload either. If I wanted to match the .458 win mag with those sized bullets I would have to have a larger COL and hand-feed the rounds into the chamber.




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Originally Posted by jwp475



This exit in the rib cage of a bulle Elk is from a 440 grain flast point hard cast from a 500 JRH at 960 FPS for only 888 FPE

Energy figures on a piece of paper mean exactly dick


I wouldn't exactly say they mean dick. In fact the energy is the basis of many other equations to predict terminal ballistics. The energy tells you how much energy will need to be expended to stop the bullets travel, simple as that. The "energy expended" to stop the bullet first comes from the air then the ripping apart of the flesh of your prey and if the bullet goes completely through the animal then its comes from air again.

The caliber, mass, bullet type, etc clearly also each play a factor. I just haven't calculated some of the others (like TKO) for this .45-90 hot load yet.


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Energy is calculated not measured. Momentum can be measured or calculated.

If you think that a FMJ solid 458 would not be lethal in your Deer story think again. A bullet strike is an inelastic collison, momentum is transfered in all collisions. Energy is transformed into other forms of energy in inelastic collisions ie thermal, sound, etc. Energy is transfered in lastic collisions as well as momentun.

The dynamics of wound trauma incapacitation are much more complex than a simple energy calculation. Tissue is crushed by the bullet as it passes thru, the faster a bullet impacts the more hydraulic presure that is created, if this pressure is grate enough it can also add to the wound channels size.

A 22-250 bullet at 3600 FPS has 1583 FPS. a 45 caliber bullet at 1400 FPS has 1567 FPS. Are the 2 equal in effectiveness on a Bear or a Buffalo? Of course not FPE is a useless number written on a piece of paper with no real value in acertaining the wound trauma of a cartridge



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Recoil should be memorable in a light rifle! wink
I had a Ruger #3 in 45-70 and it was a real memorable experience with Elmer Keith type handloads! grin
The 35 Whelen is much more enjoyable to shoot, and will handle just about anything IMO.
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JR,
Just noticed from your post count that you are new to the forum.
Even though you're getting a baptism by fire, I would like to say a belated "Welcome".
There have been many threads comparing the 45-70 to the 458 Win Mag, some making outrageous claims for the 45-70 of superior penetration and exaggerated suitability for dangerous game, so this is one of those topics that bring out strong reactions from those that post here.
Hope your rifle turns out well and suits your needs.

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JR,

The cat said it well. Welcome and lots of fun and great hunts with the Marlin. The .45-70 is a great round.

... and do not mind JWP. He is a good guy - we have not been able to figure out whats driving him up the wall of late.

smile


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A 300 grain in a 45/anything makes zero sense to me, but you only need to make yourself happy.


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In theory, I follow you there, ...

in practice, though to many pigs and deer have met their demise through a 300 gr. TSX .458 from my Guide Gun to follow through with that.

Also this.


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Originally Posted by docbill
Well the .458 uses a 500 gr. bullet and yours is a 300. REALLY big difference unless you are shooting at little things that don't turn around and try to eat/stomp you.

Build a proper .458 like .458 Win did to do it right.


Originally Posted by jwp475

Do you actualy think that a 300 grainload producing 4700 FPE is equal to a 500 grain bullet producing the same 4700 FPE? Another great example of the uselessness FPE as an indicator of terminal performance


When I got home I ran the numbers to see what kind of power I could expect from 400 grain and 500 grain bullets in the 2.85 COL .45-90. It came up with up to 4600 ft-lbs is possible for the 400 and up to 3800 ft-lbs for the 500. Clearly the comparatively short COL of the .45-90 causes the energy to actually decrease with the longer bullets due to the lower powder capacity.

A possibility if more power is desired, is to hand chamber each round essentially making a single shot rifle. The limiting factor then would be the the length at which the bullet contact the throat. Also, a flat head screw driver would likely be needed to eject an unfired round.

-JR

Last edited by JR_Maley; 05/21/10.

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Originally Posted by Steelhead
A 300 grain in a 45/anything makes zero sense to me, but you only need to make yourself happy.


How about for hunting white tailed deer with your favorite lever action?

By going with the relatively light 300 grain bullet I am able to extend the point blank range way beyond that which is possible with a heavier bullet.

I have witnessed the instantly lethal terminal ballistic performance associated a .45-70 300 HP loaded to 2350 fps against white tailed deer. I feel that with the .45-90 loaded to 2650 fps I could shoot a deer in the hoof and it would drop in its tracks (I am exaggerating).

I have never been chased by an elephant while hunting in Maryland/Virginia so I think loading 500 grain bullets would only decrease the performance of my hunting rifle. The point blank range of my scope/rifle would be way shorter (by more than half) and the bullet itself would not be as instantly lethal against deer as a hollow point.

Last edited by JR_Maley; 05/21/10.

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Colisions


Conservation of Momentum

The law of conservation of momentum states that the total momentum of an isolated system with no external forces will be conserved. The momentum can be transferred from one object to another, but the total momentum can neither increase nor decrease.

Deciding whether momentum is conserved in a collision is easy. Momentum is conserved in all collisions. When doing a physics homework problem involving a collision, the total momentum is always the same before and after the collision. Always use the conservation of momentum equation.

Remember that momentum is a vector. In a two or three dimensional collision problem it is absolutely essential to add the momenta of the different objects according to the rules of vector addition. Divide all momenta in the problem into x and y components (and z for a three dimensional problem). Leaving out this step will virtually guarantee a wrong answer.





Conservation of Kinetic Energy

Energy is one of the fundamental quantities that is always conserved. The total amount of energy in an isolated system can neither increase nor decrease. Energy can however change form. That means that the total amount of kinetic energy in a system can change. Kinetic energy can decrease if it is converted to some other form of energy. If another form of energy is converted to kinetic energy, the total kinetic energy of a system can increase.



Working with kinetic energy equations can in some ways be easier than with momentum equations, but it can also in some ways be more difficult. Energy is a scalar rather than a vector quantity, so there is no need to divide energy into components. However velocity is squared in the kinetic energy formula, so solving kinetic energy equations often requires solving a quadratic equation.

In some collisions the initial kinetic energy can change form. For example if the collision produces a noise, kinetic energy transformed into sound energy. If the collision deforms the objects, some of the kinetic energy goes into deformation. Hence Kinetic energy may not be conserved in a collision.



Types of Collisions
Kinetic energy is conserved in some but not all collisions. Whether the kinetic energy is conserved depends on the type of collision. Physicists classify four types of collisions.

Elastic collisions: Kinetic energy is conserved in elastic, which are also called completely elastic, collisions. To solve these problems, use both momentum and kinetic energy conservation.

Inelastic collisions: Kinetic energy is not conserved in inelastic collisions. To solve these problems use momentum conservation but not kinetic energy conservation.

Completely inelastic collisions: In completely inelastic collisions, the objects stick together after the collision. That means they have the same velocity after the collision. To solve these problems, use momentum conservation and use the same velocity after the collision for the objects. Do not use kinetic energy conservation.
Explosive collisions: In explosive collisions kinetic energy increases. The extra kinetic energy usually comes from stored chemical potential energy. To solve these problems. use momentum conservation only.

Conservation of momentum applies to all collision homework problems. Understanding the different types of collisions helps students know when to use conservation of kinetic energy to solve physics collision problems.


---------------------------------------------------------------

Energy Is Not ConseredIn In Elastic Collisions


Truck in Head-on Collision
Inelastic Collision

Collisions between objects are governed by laws of momentum and energy. When a collision occurs in an isolated system, the total momentum of the system of objects is conserved. Provided that there are no net external forces acting upon the objects, the momentum of all objects before the collision equals the momentum of all objects after the collision. If there are only two objects involved in the collision, then the momentum change of the individual objects are equal in magnitude and opposite in direction.

Certain collisions are referred to as elastic collisions. Elastic collisions are collisions in which both momentum and kinetic energy are conserved. The total system kinetic energy before the collision equals the total system kinetic energy after the collision. If total kinetic energy is not conserved, then the collision is referred to as an inelastic collision.

The animation below portrays the inelastic collision between a 1000-kg car and a 3000-kg truck. The before- and after-collision velocities and momentum are shown in the data tables.






In the collision between the truck and the car, total system momentum is conserved. Before the collision, the momentum of the car is +20000 kg*m/s and the momentum of the truck is -60000 kg*m/s; the total system momentum is -40000 kg*m/s. After the collision, the momentum of the car is -10000 kg*m/s and the momentum of the truck is -30 000 kg*m/s; the total system momentum is -40000 kg*m/s. The total system momentum is conserved. The momentum change of the car (-30000 kg*m/s) is equal in magnitude and opposite in direction to the momentum change of the truck (+30000 kg*m/s) .

An analysis of the kinetic energy of the two objects reveals that the total system kinetic energy before the collision is 800000 Joules (200000 J for the car plus 600000 J for the truck). After the collision, the total system kinetic energy is 200000 Joules (50000 J for the car and 150000 J for the truck). The total kinetic energy before the collision is not equal to the total kinetic energy after the collision. A large portion of the kinetic energy is converted to other forms of energy such as sound energy and thermal energy. A collision in which total system kinetic energy is not conserved is known as an inelastic collision.







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I've hunted a bit with the 45-70 and like what it can do. I must admit, however, that chasing heavier bullets down the barrel with one of these light rifles - even "only" at 45-70 possibilities, can get "enough" rather quickly. (And my 358 Norma Ruger M77 with the factory standard [hard] pad doesn't bother me a bit.) Run some 350 or 400 A-Frames hard if you want to maximize you 45-70/90! grin

BTW, seeing what "energy" can do one has only to view what it can't do sometimes. I once put two 200 Nosler BTs into the stomach of a smallish caribou at 50-75 yards. (My shooting was okay; I placed both shots nearly the same, but the sights were way off.) The rifle was a 340 Weatherby, a rifle that has pushed its bullets to 4999 calculated FPE. But that caribou took both bullets without losing its feet (in spite of the stomach and its contents being pretty well scattered about.)

There's nothing wrong at all with an energetic collision, but it has to affect important stuff. Otherwise it's wasted.


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Originally Posted by Steelhead
A 300 grain in a 45/anything makes zero sense to me, but you only need to make yourself happy.



+1...............



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