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Joined: Jan 2010
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 66 |
JR,
Just noticed from your post count that you are new to the forum.
Even though you're getting a baptism by fire, I would like to say a belated "Welcome".
There have been many threads comparing the 45-70 to the 458 Win Mag, some making outrageous claims for the 45-70 of superior penetration and exaggerated suitability for dangerous game, so this is one of those topics that bring out strong reactions from those that post here.
Hope your rifle turns out well and suits your needs.
Thanks. There are a bunch of good forums I've found that deal with my shooting interest over the years. They are now all blocked at my work because they are "dangerous weapon sites". Luckily I guess the net-nanny software or what ever they are using considers this a camping site. jwp475, When my bullet hits its prey I like the kinetic energy to be transfered first into deformation energy leading to a higher energy within the animal in the form of pressure. I also like the energy and the momentum to be transfered as much as possible to prey and not off in the dirt somewhere beyond the prey.
The more I build up a tolerance to recoil, the more I need to get my fix.
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
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I don't understand worrying about dirt energy, but whatever.
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Posts: 2,488 |
What with the shape of the Marlin stock and the recoil of a .458Winchester round I'll bet you can hardly wait to shoot a box of factory loads through it?
Thus saith thr lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeh from the lord. Jeremiah 17:5 KJV
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 17,491 |
A 300 grain in a 45/anything makes zero sense to me, but you only need to make yourself happy. +1............... Ironically, with the Speer selection, the 300 is easily their best 45-70 bullet, followed by the 350, with the 400 last in terms of toughness and penetration..........???
Sometimes, the air you 'let in'matters less than the air you 'let out'.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2006
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If the 350 gr Hornady Interlock RN will feed through the Cowboy gun that should make a good compromise between the 300 and the 500 gr slugs. The recoil should be very satisfying at high velocity!  whelennut
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger!
There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 |
Although a 300gr Barnes should cut a wide path of destruction ![[Linked Image]](http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/Shoalcove/Stuff1/Barnes.jpg)
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,698
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,698 |
I forgot to mention nose shape is important. A chain fire in a 10 round magazine would be memorable!  whelennut
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger!
There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 66
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 66 |
I forgot to mention nose shape is important. A chain fire in a 10 round magazine would be memorable! whelennut I'm not gonna lie, even the leverevolution bullets scare the piss out of me. All the rounds I have been cooking up involve hollow points or flat noses. The interesting thing is that despite the better drag coefficient of the leverevolution bullets, the extra length (aka less powder capacity) practically negates the benefeits. That is, of course, if you can deal with the recoil associated with pushing a barn door shaped bullet to the same ballistic performance.
The more I build up a tolerance to recoil, the more I need to get my fix.
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Joined: Feb 2010
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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A couple of cautions about Taylor KO and Momentum versus KE.
The KE of a typical rifle bullet is more than 100 times the recoil energy of the rifle firing it. Yet the momentum of the recoiling rifle is about 150%-200% greater than for the bullet it fired (because the gas blasting from the barrel accounts for almost half of the forward momentum of a cartridge discharge). Which predicts lethality better? KE, which shows that a rifle bullet is about 100 times more lethal than the rifle that fires it? Or Momentum, which shows that the recoiling rifle is about twice as deadly as a rifle bullet?
Also, the Taylor KO is twice as high for a thrown baseball than it is for a .470 Nitro Express.
KE won't predict lethality accurately, because you can maximize or minimize the potential for a given projectile to kill quickly by changing numerous important variables. But KE still is a lot better predictor than momentum or TKO.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2001
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Recoil should be memorable in a light rifle! whelennut You ain't kiddin'.. Might be a good idea to have your retinas epoxied in place before the first shot.. Just sayin'..
Ex- USN (SS) '66-'69
Pro-Constitution.
LET'S GO BRANDON!!!
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Joined: Aug 2003
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 17,491 |
Recoil should be memorable in a light rifle! whelennut You ain't kiddin'.. Might be a good idea to have your retinas epoxied in place before the first shot.. Just sayin'.. You got a problem with "look, turn your head, and yank...er, squeeze that popsicle stick"?
Sometimes, the air you 'let in'matters less than the air you 'let out'.
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Joined: Apr 2004
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Apr 2004
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"point blank range"...
There's the friggin' problem.
Get a decent barrel sight (think ladder variant - Buffalo Arms makes a very fine one), regulate the load to it, and learn to use it.
Load a decent BC slug (400+ grains) in the .45-70 case now that you've lengthened the throat and action to have zero feeding problems, and go forth to slay stuff at range "point blank" can't even begin to contemplate.
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Joined: Apr 2005
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,866 |
jwp475, When my bullet hits its prey I like the kinetic energy to be transfered first into deformation energy leading to a higher energy within the animal in the form of pressure. I also like the energy and the momentum to be transfered as much as possible to prey and not off in the dirt somewhere beyond the prey. [/quote] The problem is that a bullet strike is an "inelastic collision" which energy is mostly transformed in other forms of energy. The idea that this vast amount of "kinetic energy" is transfered is incorrect and is a BS myth that gets continualy perpetuated. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Colisions Conservation of Momentum The law of conservation of momentum states that the total momentum of an isolated system with no external forces will be conserved. The momentum can be transferred from one object to another, but the total momentum can neither increase nor decrease. Deciding whether momentum is conserved in a collision is easy. Momentum is conserved in all collisions. When doing a physics homework problem involving a collision, the total momentum is always the same before and after the collision. Always use the conservation of momentum equation. Remember that momentum is a vector. In a two or three dimensional collision problem it is absolutely essential to add the momenta of the different objects according to the rules of vector addition. Divide all momenta in the problem into x and y components (and z for a three dimensional problem). Leaving out this step will virtually guarantee a wrong answer. Conservation of Kinetic Energy Energy is one of the fundamental quantities that is always conserved. The total amount of energy in an isolated system can neither increase nor decrease. Energy can however change form. That means that the total amount of kinetic energy in a system can change. Kinetic energy can decrease if it is converted to some other form of energy. If another form of energy is converted to kinetic energy, the total kinetic energy of a system can increase. Working with kinetic energy equations can in some ways be easier than with momentum equations, but it can also in some ways be more difficult. Energy is a scalar rather than a vector quantity, so there is no need to divide energy into components. However velocity is squared in the kinetic energy formula, so solving kinetic energy equations often requires solving a quadratic equation. In some collisions the initial kinetic energy can change form. For example if the collision produces a noise, kinetic energy transformed into sound energy. If the collision deforms the objects, some of the kinetic energy goes into deformation. Hence Kinetic energy may not be conserved in a collision.Types of Collisions Kinetic energy is conserved in some but not all collisions. Whether the kinetic energy is conserved depends on the type of collision. Physicists classify four types of collisions. Elastic collisions: Kinetic energy is conserved in elastic, which are also called completely elastic, collisions. To solve these problems, use both momentum and kinetic energy conservation. Inelastic collisions: Kinetic energy is not conserved in inelastic collisions. To solve these problems use momentum conservation but not kinetic energy conservation. Completely inelastic collisions: In completely inelastic collisions, the objects stick together after the collision. That means they have the same velocity after the collision. To solve these problems, use momentum conservation and use the same velocity after the collision for the objects. Do not use kinetic energy conservation.Explosive collisions: In explosive collisions kinetic energy increases. The extra kinetic energy usually comes from stored chemical potential energy. To solve these problems. use momentum conservation only. Conservation of momentum applies to all collision homework problems. Understanding the different types of collisions helps students know when to use conservation of kinetic energy to solve physics collision problems. --------------------------------------------------------------- Energy Is Not ConseredIn In Elastic Collisions Truck in Head-on Collision Inelastic Collision Collisions between objects are governed by laws of momentum and energy. When a collision occurs in an isolated system, the total momentum of the system of objects is conserved. Provided that there are no net external forces acting upon the objects, the momentum of all objects before the collision equals the momentum of all objects after the collision. If there are only two objects involved in the collision, then the momentum change of the individual objects are equal in magnitude and opposite in direction. Certain collisions are referred to as elastic collisions. Elastic collisions are collisions in which both momentum and kinetic energy are conserved. The total system kinetic energy before the collision equals the total system kinetic energy after the collision. If total kinetic energy is not conserved, then the collision is referred to as an inelastic collision. The animation below portrays the inelastic collision between a 1000-kg car and a 3000-kg truck. The before- and after-collision velocities and momentum are shown in the data tables. In the collision between the truck and the car, total system momentum is conserved. Before the collision, the momentum of the car is +20000 kg*m/s and the momentum of the truck is -60000 kg*m/s; the total system momentum is -40000 kg*m/s. After the collision, the momentum of the car is -10000 kg*m/s and the momentum of the truck is -30 000 kg*m/s; the total system momentum is -40000 kg*m/s. The total system momentum is conserved. The momentum change of the car (-30000 kg*m/s) is equal in magnitude and opposite in direction to the momentum change of the truck (+30000 kg*m/s) . An analysis of the kinetic energy of the two objects reveals that the total system kinetic energy before the collision is 800000 Joules (200000 J for the car plus 600000 J for the truck). After the collision, the total system kinetic energy is 200000 Joules (50000 J for the car and 150000 J for the truck). The total kinetic energy before the collision is not equal to the total kinetic energy after the collision. A large portion of the kinetic energy is converted to other forms of energy such as sound energy and thermal energy. A collision in which total system kinetic energy is not conserved is known as an inelastic collision.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 66
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 66 |
The problem is that a bullet strike is an "inelastic collision" which energy is mostly transformed in other forms of energy.
That is correct.
The idea that this vast amount of "kinetic energy" is transfered is incorrect and is a BS myth that gets continualy perpetuated.
It depends. If the bullet stops in the animal all kinetic energy has been transfered to either other forms of energy within the animal or the kinetic energy of the animal. Its called the Second Law of Thermodynamics. If the bullet fully penetrates the animal, then any remaining KE after it exits is wasted (it is eventually transfered to the dirt like I mentioned before). The amount of energy that was transfered to the animal is equal to the KE of the projectile entering the animal minus the KE of the projectile leaving the animal. A 500 gr solid bullet with a KE of 4700 ft-lbs with penetrate deeper (not shed KE as fast) than a 300 gr HP bullet with the same KE for two reasons. One is the greater sectional density. Two is the construction of the bullet and the fact that it does not expand as much. Seeing as how at 3000 ft-lbs my 300 gr HP's fully penetrate, why would I use a 500 gr in the .45-90? Remember I am hunting deer. I have only made this conversion to increase the range and the knockdown power at those ranges of my rifle. The 500 grain bullet at equal power definitely has it place in use against charging large game and I have not argued against that point at all. Your argument that KE means "dick" is completely false and you are doing a disservice to the shooting community by preaching that jibberish. It is all about how much KE is transfered to the animal that matters. And yes bullet weight, caliber, and construction completely determine the rate at which KE is transfered to the animal which determines the penetration, but the KE is what you are starting with. It provides the energy to enable all that bullet expansion, penetration, fragmentation, hydroshock, etc. aka, the stuff that actually kills the animal. I feel I could argue this all day long and not make any impression on you, so can we just accept that we have two different views on the importance of KE. For those that are impressionable I would like to explain that I am a mechanical engineer, I regularly use the laws of thermodynamics, and I am very confident that I am right on this one. "point blank range"...
There's the friggin' problem.
Get a decent barrel sight (think ladder variant - Buffalo Arms makes a very fine one), regulate the load to it, and learn to use it.
Load a decent BC slug (400+ grains) in the .45-70 case now that you've lengthened the throat and action to have zero feeding problems, and go forth to slay stuff at range "point blank" can't even begin to contemplate. I am already all setup to compensate for drop at very long ranges, just now the range beyond which I need to compensate is further out. Its just nice to have one less thing to think about during a fleeting moment of opportunity. -JR
The more I build up a tolerance to recoil, the more I need to get my fix.
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,866
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,866 |
Again you missed the point, the bullet stoping in the animal is a near perfevt inelastic collision and therefore "energy transforms into mastly thermal energy and little "energy" transfer takes place. "Energy Transform" is a BS Myth
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 17,491
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 17,491 |
The simultaneous vaporization of bullet and prairie pooch and the ensuing red mist remind me of something. And I surely can't say energy transfer isn't foremost.
Sometimes, the air you 'let in'matters less than the air you 'let out'.
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,866
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,866 |
There is an untraceable small amount of energy transfer, but the fact reamins that is not the foremost of what happens. Newtons 3 laws of motion deal with momentum, momentum transfers and acceleration, not energy transfers, Newtons 3 laws of motion govern all collisions. In a lastic collision "energy" is transfered as the colliding bodies remain in motion. No motion, no "energy transfer". A Deer is not accelerated with a bullet impact
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 17,491
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Posts: 17,491 |
No motion, no "energy transfer". A Deer is not accelerated with a bullet impact
Not the entire animal. I'm sure one might see another side of things if they were to view a high speed photo capture of the impact though. And for sure if one could see the slow-mo view of the internals. Admittedly, I hardly buy into the concept as being a useful means for killing big game. Cutting, shredding, and breaking seem so much more useful; I won't waste any time worrying about how energy is "used" in such processes.
Sometimes, the air you 'let in'matters less than the air you 'let out'.
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,866
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,866 |
There is indeed a small amount of energy transfer, since a bullet strike is not a perfect inelastic collison, but this is a small amount and totaly untraceable. Unimportant in any calculation.
I agree that energy is a poor indicator of therminal performance
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 61,130
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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"point blank range"...
There's the friggin' problem.
Get a decent barrel sight (think ladder variant - Buffalo Arms makes a very fine one), regulate the load to it, and learn to use it.
Load a decent BC slug (400+ grains) in the .45-70 case now that you've lengthened the throat and action to have zero feeding problems, and go forth to slay stuff at range "point blank" can't even begin to contemplate. I am already all setup to compensate for drop at very long ranges, just now the range beyond which I need to compensate is further out. Its just nice to have one less thing to think about during a fleeting moment of opportunity. -JR You defeat your own argument. The higher BC slugs may start slower, but they retain more velocity down range, shoot flatter, and deliver more energy. Knowing, and not guessing, never fails, and I'd suggest you start knowing at some point.
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