Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles Belted magnum case bulge??

I would expect a case to expand to the minimum SAAMI dimension of the chamber in which it was fired, that minimum being around .514" in most popular belted cartridges. It could be more since that is the minimum. But how does it bulge from the sizing operation?



How in the world can you tell where the resistance was by putting the case in the chamber with your fingers? Or even with the bolt? You can't tell where the interference, if any, could be unless you smoke the case and check the marks. You're just making conversation now. Depending on how your sizing die is set up that interference could easily be in the shoulder and you'd never know the difference.

If you set your FL die to partially full size and set the shoulder back to .001"-002" of shoulder clearance, brass springback both in firing and sizing could cause minimal interference and without smoking or using Marks-A-Lot you'd never know where that interference might be.

Your problems with the two '06's are irrelevant, and common, and certainly aren't persuasive.

Continue to mark me a skeptic.

I guess YOU should have been there. Since I use the stoney point tool to set headspace I know it wasn't there. The resistance was right before the belt hit the chamber.


Now you have me confused. You say it's common to not be able to swap non belted brass because of a bulge (high dimension) of the case but somehow belted brass would be immune??

Kraky, I thought you used the handy dandy tool that Larry is selling and not the Stoney Point??? You keep changing your stories. Incidentally, since you mentioned you dedicated your calipers to other functions and you like toys, why not buy another set of calipers and keep your handy Stoney Point set up on it? That cartridge would meet resistance when it's in the chamber so how in the world can you identify exactly where it meets that resistance. The shoulder, or even possibly the body near the shoulder could be the culprit.

I never used the word "bulge". If you neck size only, that wouldn't be a bulge, just an unsized body, which may or may not fit another chamber. If you're talking about an unsized body in a belted case and calling that a bulge, that's another story. I neck size all my cases, belted or unbelted, for 4 reloads at which point there usually IS slight interference in chambering. At that point I set shoulders back, either body die or FL die, set to put the shoulder back .001"-.002", and start the process all over. No difference for belted or non belted cases. They all start chambering with a bit of resistance at the third or fourth reload. Is that resistance what you are trying to call a bulge? A bulge to me is like the Battle of the Bulge in WWII, that's something that sticks out like a hernia.

You don't need to justify your purchases of these toys but to try to "sell" them under false pretenses is pitiful.

Promotional post are reserved for paying advertisers only. Please contact advertising24hourcampfire.com if you have any questions or would like ad rates.

Thanks for your professional courtesy.

I have loaded for a variety of belted cases over the years and like Bob have never had the bulge. WBY mags, H&H Mags, Win Mags and Rem Mags. Custom rifles and factory. If I am going on a hunt out of my local area I know my rounds will chamber not because I have run them into a special die but because I have fired all those cases at least twice in my rifles and know their history, I know if cases are getting tight to chamber and don't worry about not being able to chamber. I would not rely on cases that might have a questionable history. Why haven't the major die companies addressed the bulge? Also if there is a bulge on the outside of the case, there has to be the reverse going on inside the case. Now thining on the inside has been what leads to case head seperation and working metal back and forth will cause quicker failure. So you are taking this brass that has been fired maybe in different rifles an unknown number of times running it through the die and going on "really good hunt". Think I wil pass on that idea.
The headspace gauge looks interesting but I don't think you can change the set-up for a different caliber any faster than I can change a bushing and freeing up my calipers with the Stoney Point requires the twist of a knurled knob. If you are measuring headspace of the cases with the tool in question, your calipers are not being used at that moment. I can have a series or pistol cases or sockets on the bench to measure headspace differences in cases.
I am not saying his tools don't work or that there is no need for them. They appear to be well made and a lot of thought and enginering went into their production. Just that with over 20+ years of loading a variety of belted cases in various calibers and makes of rifles, I haven't had the bulge. If I run into the problem and I can't solve it with a die set change, I will order the die once I am sure the bulge outside does not have a corresponding thinning on the inside.Rick.

You explained that set-up very nicely Bobski...something I believe a lot of handloaders do not understand, and what can and cannot be done with their dies.

My RCBS dies for the 7 Wby Mag, set up now to bump the shoulder back 3 thous. comes down within 10 thous of the belt. (As close as I can measure anyway). So, a properly set up FL sizing die will completly size the entire piece of brass.

My thought was when the "bulge" was first mentioned, that in setting back the shoulder of the case being formed, the bulge would appear at the thin spot on the case. IME, insepent case seperation comes well up into the area included IN the die, so that thin spot should be ironed out, or sized, by that die.

Unless the die is not properly set up, or one is trying to partial neck/body size the case. Partial sizing of any case will allow it to increase in size below where the die stops, causing eventual hard chambering.

Case in point, no pun intended, was when I thought neck sizing my 308 stuff used for Hi-Power competion would yeild more 10`s...it didn`t, I noticed that after about 4-5 firings and necksizing only, I had a very difficult time loading the mag with 5 rounds during rapid fire strings..the brass had grown so much. I went back to FL sizing, just was not worth it.

And I agree, "bulge" is not the correct deffinition..sized or unsized is.

Efforts at ridicule accomplish nothing. You have yet to answer the question as to how that "bulge" you claim exists, gets there.

From Webster's Dictionary: "Bulge-localized swelling of a surface cause by pressure from within or below".

It's like trying to herd cats with you claiming I can't understand you technical description and remaining unresponsive. Give the explanation and try me!

Experience is nothing more than a series of mistakes. I've loaded a lot and made my share of them over many, many years probably starting before you were born. But then that's a rhetorical question as you really don't want to know!


Shooters and hunters don't necessarily equate to experience in reloading. And, best I recall, High Power shooting wasn't with belted cases. As for the other guy, I believe he was a military man, not likely doing much reloading during his tours. And what is his reloading experience? There are writers and there are writers. They all aren't gods, far from it, so that isn't at all persuasive. Anyone can throw names and money around for endorsements, but it doesn't add credibility if you can't explain and answer questions.


If you'd respond specifically to the questions instead of diverting and referring to your website, maybe you could teach us all something, which I doubt.

Your die may be quite good and a nice toy, I don't know, but trying to sell it as "essential" is just wrong.

Promotional post are reserved for paying advertisers only. Please contact advertising24hourcampfire.com if you have any questions or would like ad rates.

Thanks for your professional courtesy.

I bowed out before, but Kraky and you started back in.

And, NO, I don't enjoy arguments though I do have all the time in the world if the other parties are insistent and persistent. Just check any or all of my posts. Not many are argumentative, even in many cases when I know the other party is wrong.

Peace! Again!

Bobski...lighter note....3k, 200grn, .325 yet??

Still doing mine..

Thanks

Sold mine but I think 3k too much for the 200g out of 325.

You've misread...never said that.

You probably won't accept my explanation of why you haven't ever seen the "problem". You do alot of neck sizing. You don't fl size every time you fire a full power load. I really think if you do alot of loading and swapping of belted mag brass and were doing alot of fl sizing it would have shown it's face to you at one time or another.
I TOTALLY understand headspacing and am not mistaking it for the problem.
You refuse to agree that I have properly diagnosed the problem in my friends guns and have corrected it with the tool Larry sells. That's fine by me. I know it exists in these guns...I've seen it...measured it and fixed it. And, by the way...my friend has given me a bunch of his "out of spec" wby brass over the years. I've fixed it with the tool and loaded it happily ever after those cases in my guns without a hitch.
BTW...can you please show me where I've tried to "sell this tool" to anyone that doesn't need it?

Kraky, I thought it was you that said he had both items sold by Larry. If it wasn't, my apologies. I was left with the thought that the "someone" wasn't going to go to the trouble of attaching the Stoney Point tool to his calipers as they were essential for something else. My response was to that statement which apparently wasn't you. Seems ludicrous to spend $$ for that bench tool and not be willing to pay $20 for another set of calipers to dedicate to the Stoney Point if it was too much trouble to change. Again, my apologies if that wasn't you.

Maybe you did diagnose the problem correctly on your friends' gun. I just don't see how you did it when the obstruction couldn't be identified with the case almost all the way in the chamber. I don't know how to do that without blackening the case so I thought I could learn something.

I still don't understand a "bulge" claimed in these cases and I'd still welcome an explanation. Most belted cases have the belt down on the base below the web. See the pictures of two in this thread. If this "bulge" is in fact expansion and part of the case that is unsized just .0005" above the belt, where did that expansion come from? When the base starts expanding and I lose cases to expanding primer pockets I would then expect to be confronted with an inability to size a case so it would chamber. Larry says the problem is caused not in firing but in the sizing process. I'd like to know how? And why won't a regular full length die not size? If the base has expanded so much as to prevent that then is the case safe?

Did you ever try FL sizing those wasted cases to get the "bulge" out of there? I'd still like to understand where this bulge is and how it gets there without a lot of tap dancing around the subject.

In fact, forget it. I'm bored with the whole thing.

So make it headspace off the shoulder..belted cases feed fine, and Norma brass will last as long as anything..Not really on topic here, but this BS gets old, and often repeated by those that are guessing...

BS gets old??? Why does the U.S. Military NOT use any NORMA brass???? Simple, too soft and too thick.

Belted cases do not feed as smooth as non belted cases. Ever.

Guessing???

Yeah, right.

Just guessing.

I have reloaded a fair bit for belted mags. The only problems I have ran into is the case stretching or thinning just above the belt. The only fix for this is to re-chamber the gun using a reamer cut to the dimensions of the brass your using.
Not once have I ran into bulging of any kind.

IME there are slightly large chambers and tight chambers, then there are dies with interior dimensions that are slightly larger than others. This is a a case fired in a factory chamber (Steyr 30-06)


a perfectly natural and not unusual bulge. The chamber is a little large and the case bulges above the solid part of the case head. The Redding Body Die does not get rid of the bulge but all cases chamber just fine after sizing. I'll have to measure some.

This is a pic of a tight chamber 280AI load that has been fired twice


the Redding Body die does not touch the case body and it grows until it gets a little tight. If the Innovative die worked on unbelted cases I'd try one out.

This is my 300 win mag factory chamber (Beretta Mato). This case has been fired 5 times and I have used cases for appox 10 firings. After firing the case grows to a little less than .515"


after sizing the body die takes it down to a little more than .513"


and the cases have all chambered easily (as long as I push the shoulder back enough). This is typical of all I have loaded for.

Now I never switch brass between guns but I would imagine that if I tried to use this 300 win mag brass in another chamber that was slightly smaller then the case body sizing and really the springback would make chambering difficult. However since there is probably some springback on this case I would surmise that the Redding Body Die takes the case body down to a smaller diameter than .513". So if the other chamber was at .513" then the die might work on those also. I reload for 9 different 300 win mags and insist on having the gun on my bench when I reload. None have a bulge problem.

I suppose if you had a tight chambered belted magnum chamber (either because of a worn out factory reamer or a custom reamed chamber that was tight) then you might need this collet.

Hey Woods, great illustration and presentation as usual.

I'm bored with this subject now but in a couple of PM's I received I speculated exactly as you have illustrated. But the problem is that the "huckster" stated the "bulge" occurs not while shooting but while sizing. Firstly, that to me isn't a bulge in the usually accepted sense, just an unsized part of the case. He also said the explanation was "too technical" to go into here so I'm guessing this is not what he alleges, but since he refused to answer that question I really don't know.

I suppose it's being "sold" in much the same fashion as the small base dies which are made by several manufacturers for unbelted cases and for use on semi autos. Strangely, I loaded for Garands years ago for some competition shooting and I never had the need for a small based die there either.

As I mentioned to one of the PM's, I've had occasion to get "bad" dies because of the disparity in their dimensions with the chamber of the rifle. Still within SAAMI tolerances but not mating well with the rifle. When I had the problem I returned the dies for replacement and was admonished it was the "last" return for that die as they couldn't guarantee the fit because just of what you stated, disparity and wear on reamers. Replacements worked fine as I recall. I remember specifically getting replacements from RCBS, Lyman and Hornady. RCBS also mentioned that occasional warping during the heat treating process could also be a problem.

Thanks, and I'm out of here permanently now but did want to acknowledge your post and explanation, with which I agree.

What a fantastic site!

Very glad I found you guys!

Sharing is what it's about.

Anyone see any problems with this possible solution for just a standard die? (As I do get a few plus-size cases from range-brass)

Mentioning that I tried chassis grease to get a little more out of a set of dies, very limited success. This was back in the day when the cost of baby diapers dipped into shooting supply funds. Chassis grease is designed to have a measurable film thickness, but it was just not enough for some of those few cases that don't FL-size.

Just tinkering with a few that I would just otherwise scrap, brass is cheep. I got the grease idea to work, with a little help.

If I may?

My 7MM-RM does not enjoy brass @ .515 , .514 it is a little fickle. (I am working with mixed lot of about 250 7MM-RM Winchester that came from about 5000# of range sweepings,sorted only for the Winchester stamp)I will be using all that are usable for my own use, running into a few that don't chamber well after FL-resizing......



Cutting a piece of paper to wrap the greased brass, grease the paper, and run it through.



It takes just a few moments, experimenting with the paper height and thickness, it can be made to work.



From a heavy .515 - a light .512 , unless anyone can point out something I am missing, I am thinking these might be worth a try?

Thanks!

Kevin

Great pics Kevin

Something to think about and if Larry doesn't mind I'll call it - innovative thinking!