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Holding off for the wind with holdover is what sucks.....with a center hold a guy has the reticle for hold off reference....and IMO the mildot reticle really shines for that application.

[Linked Image]

An example here....reticle is a GenII....scope is a S&B 4-16X50 PMII. Coyote was 340 meters, wind was 7 blowing right to left.(.5 mil holdoff, ele ^ 1.0 mils, 10 clicks)


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[Linked Image]

6X6 bull I passed on last fall in the Missouri Breaks. Showing a P3 standard mildot reticle. This bull was only 200 meters. Scope is a 3-12X50 S&B PMII.


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Originally Posted by scenarshooter
Holding off for the wind with holdover is what sucks.....with a center hold a guy has the reticle for hold off reference....and IMO the mildot reticle really shines for that application.

[Linked Image]

An example here....reticle is a GenII....scope is a S&B 4-16X50 PMII. Coyote was 340 meters, wind was 7 blowing right to left.(.5 mil holdoff, ele ^ 1.0 mils, 10 clicks)


Yep, holding for elevation or windage is one thing. Holding for both another.
Aim point reticles without windage marks are of limited use,IME. And Aim point reticles with them pretty specific to cartridge and in most cases magnification.
Turrets are without doubt more adaptable and require much less initial range work as well when switching a scope to a different rifle/cartridge combo.


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Mark,
I shoot deer often at ranges around 600 yards. I like to keep it to 600 or less because I feel extremely comfortable at this range. Past 600 variables really start showing their teeth. Remember in AL we get a doe per day for nearly 75 days so you can do a lot of practicing if so inclined. Could I stalk closer than 600, yes most of the time, but its for practice more than anything so that I'll be ready for when I might really need to be effective at longer ranges. A lot more so than deer, I bang 600 yard steel.

Case in point. I'm from AL and only within the last several years have I been able to afford western elk hunting. I've only killed two elk, both being nice bulls. One was at around 100 yards and the other was at 600 and moving away fast. It was the last day of the hunt and we spotted him at around 500 but he spotted us first. I quickly set up as he was cautiously moving away. As I settled in the elk stopped to assess the situation and gave me a broad side. My huning partner and spotter called 597. I felt all warm and fuzzy inside because most of my practice is at 600. I was ultra confident in the shot, which proved fatal.

To put it in a nutshell, turrents and practice was the difference in taking a bull and not taking a bull. This coming from a guy that has to pinch pennies for the chance to kill a bull in 5 days every couple of years.

I am a HUGE fan of turrets!

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Originally Posted by scenarshooter
Holding off for the wind with holdover is what sucks.....with a center hold a guy has the reticle for hold off reference....and IMO the mildot reticle really shines for that application.

[Linked Image]

An example here....reticle is a GenII....scope is a S&B 4-16X50 PMII. Coyote was 340 meters, wind was 7 blowing right to left.(.5 mil holdoff, ele ^ 1.0 mils, 10 clicks)


Pat: So here,you use the first dot down rather than put in the 10 clicks?




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The threads that get started when I'm offline for a few days [sheesh]

Mil-dots were effective as hell, even before S&B put the half mil hash marks in them. I usually ran Loopies when I played with "tactical" rifles.

I liked dialing up the elevation and using the dots for hold-off. You knew your high/low was good if the horizontal wire was over the taret. But like in Pat's pic, I'd do that if time didn't allow twisting turrets. Kent Gooch once said something along the lines of "An educated guess is better than pokin' and hopin'."

That having been said, I never saw the need for turrets or mils for killing game inside 400. Duplex reticles make pretty good range estimators, and you can dope hold-over pretty easy. At the end of the day it all comes down to the nut behind the buttplate. I'm comfortable with my method inside 400, and what I love about hunting is GETTING inside 400. Now varmints and rifle ranges are meant for pushing the envelope, and thats where we push ourselves to improve.


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Originally Posted by scenarshooter
Holding off for the wind with holdover is what sucks.....with a center hold a guy has the reticle for hold off reference....and IMO the mildot reticle really shines for that application.

[Linked Image]

An example here....reticle is a GenII....scope is a S&B 4-16X50 PMII. Coyote was 340 meters, wind was 7 blowing right to left.(.5 mil holdoff, ele ^ 1.0 mils, 10 clicks)


Hi scenar. That looks like a high hold for 370 yds. What cal/load were you shooting and what distance were you originally sighted for?

When a yote would face me, I would aim just under the black spot of his nose. grin

Good shooting,

JM

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JM,

That was just a through the scope pic....I put in elevation, waited for him to turn broadside, held off .5(1st hash mark left side) and took the shot.

Rifle is a 6XC shooting 105 scenars at 3100fps.


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Bob, I could have used the first dot under the crosshair as it is 1.0 mils....instead I adjusted and held the hash mark left of the crosshair(.5)for drift. This system is very effective for me. I have made quite a few shots using the mildots as aiming points if there is no wind and the range for said dot is exact. I never use the windage turret...

For example with the 6XC, first dot under is 340M, 2nd is 470M, 3rd is 580M, 4th is 680M.


Luck....is the residue of design...
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Pat,

As many pictures of dead critters you have posted, I'd say your shooting system works just fine!!!

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Thanks bro....hows that new .300 shooting? I'm picking up 2 brand new GAP rifles tomorrow in Miles City!!!!


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I understand Pat, Thanks for explaining. The mil dots make sense to me explained that way..




The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Originally Posted by scenarshooter
Thanks bro....hows that new .300 shooting? I'm picking up 2 brand new GAP rifles tomorrow in Miles City!!!!




I'm jealous Pat





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I got a question for you Pat.

If you had any amount of money to buy a "tactical" scope, would it be a S&B?


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Also Pat, do you use any Leupold products with turrets on it?

Thx
Dober


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Originally Posted by DanAdair
Pat,
If you had any amount of money to buy a "tactical" scope, would it be a S&B?


And if you DIDN'T have $1800 to spend on a S&B, what would you get?


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""I'd love to see a side by side contest between 2 shooters. One hold over, and one turret twister. Between 3-400 yards, with paper plate sized targets, at random ranges (like 324, 345, 371, 395) It would be interesting to see which method produced the most precise hits at those ranges.""


Calvin,

On a monthly bais I shoot with a bunch of guys & girls who shoot sniper/tactical stuff. One of the events we shoot is basically what you describe. We shoot an 18" plate @ 200, 300, 400, 500 and 600 yds; timed. When I first started doing it, I twisted my NF turrets and it took me around the 50's in seconds. When I figured out how to run it with my NP-R1 reticle, holding over I cut my time down into the 30's. We a few guys who with their reticle run the 5 targets down into the mid teen's for seconds; their smokin!!!!

Hope this helps.

Alan

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Originally Posted by DanAdair
I got a question for you Pat.

If you had any amount of money to buy a "tactical" scope, would it be a S&B?


Dan, I've sure had good luck with them so far....I think there are many really good quality Tactical scopes out there, Leupold, NF, IOR, to name a few. Today I'm mounting up a Hensoldt 4-16X56 FF on a GAP .260. This is the first Hensoldt scope I've tried. I will compare it to the PMII's I'm running on other rifles.

Mark, I've never owned a Leupold tactical scope, but have several friends that run them and they seem to work great. All of my experiences with Leupold products over the years have been positive.

I'm working up this new .260 today and I'll try to get a range report and some pics up a bit later...


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No need Pat, its gonna be a one hole target anyway grin





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