Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Mule Deer & others-Least temperature sensitive slow burning powders?

Guys - Thanks for the H4831SC tip! Haven't tried that one for 'cold' rifle yet.

Sam Olson - Can you tell what cartridges you tested at 400 please?

JB,

Thanks for the good info.
We use H-4831SC exclusively in 7mm Magnums with no problems in cold weather in the UP.
As a test engineer, I could not accept warming a bullet, then stuffing it in a chamber at zero degrees F and expect valid results, or visa versa.

Thanks for the UP info. Never can have enough data!

Warming/cooling ammo only has always sounded like a weird way to do it. It would especially be suspect when testing primers, because a primer would start warming or cooling the instant it touches the bolt face. I mean, how thick is a primer cup?

OP

for those cartridges I would get some RL17 and some H4831 and never look back.

Good info. The last sentence in the second study sums it up, "it raises more questions than answers". Looks like most of the previous data is suspect.

Where I am concerned is those 100 deg. days where the ammo might get as hot as 120 in the sun or trunk of a car. I try to keep it in a lunch cooler under those conditions. I don't do much cold weather hunting these days but when temps are in the teens I keep extra ammo in my inner pockets closer to my body and switch it out every hour or so. Probably doesn't accomplish much.

Makes me wonder about those red line 270 WSM loads including the factory ones.

I tested H4831SC in my 270WCF.

H4350 in a 257 Roberts and a 300WSM.

R17 in two 300WSM's.

Like I mentioned, H4831SC worked very well when it got below 0F. The H4350 and R17 loads lost some velocity(50-100fps?, don't have my notes handy) which is no big deal except for the fact that POI was several inches lower and group size had nearly doubled to 2MOA(8" at 400 yards).

Inside of 300 yards I wouldn't worry but won't be taking any shots much further if it's real cold outside. I guess if it's cold I'll take the 270 but will probably just sit inside and drink whiskey and watch football instead.

It's not fun gutting out deer when it's -20F, made that mistake once, never again.....(grin)


And like you guys said, you're good to go from roughly 5-85F which covers 99% of the hunting here in Montana.

Good question. But wouldn't the giant mass of brass, powder, lead and copper buffer the primer from warming or cooling to whatever temp the bolt face is if the shot is taken a few seconds after chambering the cartridge?

The priming compound is up against the bottom of the cup, the thin sheet of metal that is right against the bolt face. While the head of the case no doubt does tend to keep the primer cooler, I can't believe that the priming compond doesn't start to warm up the instant it touches the bolt face.

It isn't really scientific in data collection, but it is actual experience that I have found H 1000 Extreme to work over the temperature extremes in Montana. The antelope was in 50+ degree weather at 650 yards. The elk at below zero temperatures at 450 yards. I never questioned the rifle's ability at either animal at either distance. I chose the Extreme powder to accommodate that type of hunting with a 300 Weatherby.

H1000 is also a good one, from what I have seen as well. I run it in the 6.5-06 I use for longer-range varmints, pronghorn, etc., and so far it hasn't shown any noticeable changes out to 700 yards, though I haven't tested it in super-cold weather yet.

Silly Mule Deer; don't you remember? Properly-seated primers are below flush with the case head, so they don't touch the bolt face at all!

Seriously, though, one of the questions raised by the studies linked is: Are the 'temp-insensitive' powders merely coated with an easy-lighting substance?

One thing to remember is that powder lot# vary in buring rate, re-test different lots or buy of the same lot#, especially if you are shooting load at a Max load or just below Max.

It's a bad deal to be on a hunt, and sieze the bolt up in your rifle....lesson that I learned while on a deer hunt in Utah. I shot just underneath the belly of the buck at 400, and could not get the bolt open for another shot....buck just stood there and looked at me!

Pressures skyrocket at temps below Minus(-) 25 degrees.

h1000 is what i use in my 338 ultra and 257 roy works great

h1000...very little deviation....best i have found

In my cold weather testing in Minnesota, my logbook shows that 3 powders have been my most consistent - Varget, H4350 and H4831SC.
I have used these 3 powders for: .204Ruger, .223, 7x57, .270Win., .270WSM, .308, 30-06, 300WM, 300WSM, 338WM and last but not least, the 375 H&H. I feel I have not short changed myself on performance and the consistency from 0* to 80* on my chronograph and the logbooks back it up. Also, it simplifies powder purchases to 8 lb. kegs. This system has kept me from trying the new powders of the last few years but I am happy with with what I have.

I remember doing that quite a bit growing up in Montana. -30 on Thanksgiving day in the mountains around Eureka or above Trout Creek. I'm a sissy now. Southern Idaho is warmer.

It is indeed! My mother has lived in Boise for over 40 years now....

JB,
Is there any meaningful difference in temp stability of Ramshot's TAC vs. X-Terminator? TAC works well in my 338 Fed, but it appears X-Terminator might work even a bit better with the lighter bullets.

In my experience TAC is noticeably less temp-sensitive. In my very first cold-weather test of TAC, in a .223, the same load chronographed EXACTLY the same at zero F. as it did at 70. Now, that would be highly unusual, even when chronographing the same load twice in one day, but still....

My question: What do you mean by X-Terminator working "better?" Does it get 50 more fps? Or does it group 1/4" tighter at 100 yards? Is it enough better to make any difference to a deer?

In my cold-weather hunting loads I'm very willing to give up a little accuracy and 100 fps of hot-weather speed for consistent performance at any temperature I may be hunting in.

Well, 'better' is a highly variable notion that I'm free to change on a whim depending on what seems important at the moment. Yesterday, 'better' meant faster. However, it's also related to the fact that I have not been able to get 180 BTs to shoot very well with TAC. Ironically, TAC is my go-to load with the 185 TTSXs. Quite pleased with it there. I most likely just need to fiddle with the TAC/180BT load more to find a sweet spot. Looking at the Ramshot load data, X-Terminator was, as you noted, about 50FPS faster than TAC (but also at a higher pressure, ...maybe just add a touch more TAC and equal FPS at same psi?). So, I was thinking I may try it, and if I were to get the 180s to go faster and be more accurate that would be "better". I would not try X-Terminator if it is significantly more impacted by temps. Shooting near 100deg this week, will be shooting well below freezing in the winter. I do agree that accuracy trumps all. It is my search for accuracy (and just curiosity) that leads me to consider trying X-Terminator. ...or maybe I should try IMR 8208 XBR?