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Originally Posted by rob p
Originally Posted by JohnMoses
Originally Posted by rob p
Most scopes they claim don't even hold zero. I've read very prominent shooters say that it is impossible for an internally adjustable reticle to hold zero. Guys glue the reticles in place and buy or make adjustable rings to zero their guns. Like the old Unertls.


I think alot more folks than just prominent shooters would know that if it were true.








Mike Ratigan Extreme Accuracy Benchrest Book
by Mike Ratigan


"A Super Shoot winner and US World Benchrest Team Director, Mike Ratigan is a leading figure in the Benchrest game."



I just finished his book. There's a chapter in it on the weakest part of any benchrest system. The scope. It says exactly what I said. I do not make up stuff to participate in discussions I know nothing about. Check it out if you care to. Also, look into Frozen Leupold scopes and TSI and Brackney mounts.


Brackney mounts

[Linked Image]


Only those that don't know would think that you made this up. Those in the know allready know and have experienced this.



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Originally Posted by jwp475
Only those that don't know would think that you made this up. Those in the know allready know and have experienced this.


The Christmas turkey arrives... grin

The accuracy requirements of some super long range 1500 yd. contest shooter that has 17 lb gun vs. hunters and snipers who carry 8-10 lb rifles are probably quite different.

To make the blanket statement that most modern scopes are not capable of holding zero for the ranges and purposes intended is b.s.

For most hunters/shooters, there are plenty of reliably adjusting scopes available today. The higher end models are certainly capable of sniping people and animals at long range. History proves that.

I guess the USMC Sniper and US Army Sniper programs are just not in the know either shocked....I wonder how many enemy have been killed with these malfunctioning scopes? Answer: ...Alot.

Current statistics for snipers is 1 kill per less than 2 shots fired.

I wonder what the number of animals are that these unreliable adjusting scopes have taken past 500 yds.? Answer: ...Alot.

I've got a Nikon Monarch X scope on a 7 Short mag that will routinely hit a 13" steel circle plate at 600 yds. when I do my part (Kill zone of a good size deer). I start at 200 yds. and dial up to 300,400,500 and 600 yds. Sometimes I jump from 200 to 600 and back to 400yds and I sure as hell ain't no sniper.

The super accurate firearms of a benchrest shooter that is launching missles at 1500 yds. need a very precise system for tracking.

But many scopes made now are capable of a level of tracking that most folks marksmanship can't match at long distances.

You are talking about maybe a fraction of 1% of all shooters that need more.

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About like the 45-70 being useless past 200 yards, right? Maybe "Sharpsguy" made up the distances that he has taken game with a 45-70. Talk about turkeys, the USMC's snipers rifle in 7.62X51 wieghs 17 pounds, not 8 to 10.



Quote
Rifle weight � 17.0 lbs with commercial scope, 18.5 lbs. with Unertl or US Optics USMC.



Rifle weight � 17.0 lbs with commercial scope, 18.5 lbs. with Unertl or US Optics USMC.


Quote
The rifle is capable of surgical precision shooting. In a Hostage Rescue Operation it would be the first rifle I would pick to hit a quarter-sized target at 300 yards. Handling the weapon you will notice its heavy at about 17lbs with scope and Harris bipod. That's a bunch and may prove to hurt extended operations. The original M40A1 is about 14lbs rigged the same way. As said before the more a weapon weighs the less ammo and water a sniper can carry. The weight is my only complaint about the rifle. Tests were done to see if the weight could be lowered and the accuracy kept the same.

First was to substitute a fully adjustable HS Precision stock for the McMillan A4. This saved about a pound but the groups opened up 1/4moa more than with the McMillan Bedded A4.

Next was changing the floor metal to an HS Precision detachable magazine steel floor plate. Lost about a forth of a pound, no loss in accuracy. Picked up the ability to have quick magazine changes and four or ten round capacity. This is a very nice feature.

Next was changing the McMillan A4 stock for a recently designed stock. The stock is made for Sub minute Solutions Company, by McMillan Fiberglass Stocks. It is basically a M40A1 stock with a wheel adjustable comb and stock spacers. In all fairness this stock was not available when the M40A3 was designed. With the Sub minute Solutions Stock, bedded, no loss of accuracy was seen. It cut the weight down by approximately a pound.

In all we were able to cut the weight down by only a pound and a third, down to about fifteen and one half pounds. The only way to lessen the weight more would be to cut the length of the barrel, flute the barrel or decrease the diameter of the barrel. If the USMC were to decrease the diameter to the same size as a Remington Police Sniper Rifle and flute it, the weight would be reduced by about two pounds more. In short the same basic rifle would weigh between thirteen and fifteen pounds depending on the stock, floor metal and barrel contour picked. My current favorite field rifle is a GA Precision built rifle they call "The Rock". It's similar to the M40A1 but with a fluted 22" barrel. It is capable, with Black hills brand 175-grain 308 Winchester ammunition, to hit man sized targets at 1000 yards. This rifle weighs twelve pounds with an US Optics SN3 scope. Compared to the M40A3, The Rock is far more user friendly to carry great distances.

In short the M40A3 is one of the most accurate rifles I have ever tested but the weight is several pounds more than a sniper should be expected to carry in the field.



http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/usmcm40a3.asp



Quote
Features: The M40A1 sniper rifle is based on the Remington model 700. It is a heavy barrel, bolt action, magazine fed 7.62mm rifle that is optimized for accuracy with Match Grade ammunition. The rifle is equipped with a special 10 power Unertl sniper scope. With scope, the rifle weighs approximately 14.5 pounds. It is equipped with a built-in five round magazine. This weapon is hand-made by specially trained and qualified armorers at Quantico, Virginia.
The unique characteristics of the M40A1 Sniper Rifle are: commercial competition-grade heavy barrel, McMillan fiberglass stock and butt pad, modified Winchester Model 70 floorplate and trigger guard, and modified and lightened trigger. In addition, each stock is epoxy bedded for accuracy and all weapons must shoot less than one minute of angle (MOA).

Background: The M40A1 was put into service in the 1970s to meet the need of a long range sniper rifle. Each rifle is hand built by specially trained and qualified personnel at the Marine Corps Marksmanship Training Unit (MTU) at Quantico, Virginia.



http://usmilitary.about.com/od/marineweapons/l/blm40.htm


Quote
Differences
M40A1 ----------------------------M40A3
Weight 6.57 kg (14.45 lb) ---------7.5 kg (16.56 lb)
Overall Length 1.117 m (44.0 in)--- 1.124 m (44.25 in)
Barrel Hart Schneider Match Grade SS #7
Lands and Grooves 5 6
Stock McMillan HTG McMillan Tactical A4



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M40_rifle

Last edited by jwp475; 08/16/10.


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Gobble gobble gobble....

Why haven't you shared this "in the know" information with our military in time of war?

I'm sure they would like to know that their scopes do not track correctly.

AS far as the 45-70 Guide gun being useless past 200 yds. That's a lie. I said there were better choices past that range and I was right. grin

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Would you like me to go back a bring up the quote?



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You should do more and read less.

Please do. as I have the thread on hand. So when you quote me out of context I will bust yer ass again. wink

But i must ask why you are trying to back peddle from your in the know; do not track statement concerning modern scopes?

Because that turkey won't gobble.....

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The next time you bust my ass will be the first. A legend in your own mind



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Originally Posted by JohnMoses


But i must ask why you are trying to back peddle from your in the know; do not track statemnent concerning modern scopes?

Because that turkey won't strut my friend.....



The tracking issue of your favorite brand of scope is well documented and an entire cottage industry was created just to deal with the problem. March scopes came about just because of so many tracking issues. I would have figured a know it all would have know this basic info, guess not



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I don't have a fav. brand of scope, wrong again.

Please answer how you know modern rifle scopes will not hold zero despite mountains of evidence and combat experience to the contrary?

What tests have you done?

What were the ranges these tests were done at?

Which ones failed to hold zero?

How many shots did it take for the zero to shift?

I'm waiting....

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Looks like a reading and comprehension problem



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Answer the question Professor.

I think you can comprehend it if you concentrate. wink

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Of course some shoot enough to have actually experienced POI shift and are aware of the fixes, of course some have not.

Off to work, now


Nice picture!!!!!!!!



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Still won't answer the question...anyway have a good one jwp wink

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Just for you


Originally Posted by Lowlight
Originally Posted by DP425
Originally Posted by thmpr
The strangest part about all this.... Is why would KAC place this on their M110 rifle?


If KAC had it's way, the M110 would NOT have came equipped with the M2- safe to say it wouldn't have even came with a Leupold. This was a requirement by army contract. Unfortunately the army loves tradition- and since Leupold has supplied their scopes since 1986... well, they stick with what they know, despite what troops in the field tell them.

Out of 15 brand new, out of box M110 systems two failed the box test and another simply wouldn't hold zero. Doesn't speak too highly for Leupold's QC.


Per a class of 20 we see 2 to 5 not work every single class... part of the reason they use the Leupold is the replacement requirement to have "X" number immediately available for replacement. The guys who have Leupold's on their service rifles usually have a deployment box full of replacements. It's wastes a whole morning figuring out which scopes don't work, and then replacing them.



http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ub...02&what=showflat&fpart=2&q=1



8 to 10 pound sniper rifles indeed

Last edited by jwp475; 08/16/10.


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Please tell us about the tests you have done with the scopes that make your statements valid.

Or is it a Sniper's Hide forum secret? grin


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Scopes loosing POI ability go in degrees, a,2 MOA rifle is suddenely shooting .5 MOA change the scope and the rifle goes back to a .2MOA shooter
You mean you didn't know that???


[Linked Image]


[Linked Image]



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very weak response.

You better get off of here before you totally evaporate. wink

You win jwp. wink I'm tired of debating you.

Have a good one.

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John, no debate but how many rounds of 30-06/165 grain factory ammo would you think an 8 pound rifle wearing a Leup VX3 would take to wear out a 3 x 9 by 40ish VX3 or Conquest 3 x 9 x 40sih or fill in the blank with your favorite $500 scope?

You recon you would wear the barrel out first? Just wonderin....


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Not sure what your question has to do with whether or not modern scopes are able to track reliably?

All scopes can fail at some point. Some fail earlier than others, some fail right out of the box. cry

How much wood can a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood? grin

I have an older Leupold that still works fine after I replaced the bbl on a 15 yr. old 7/08.

I guess I have put over 2000 shots thru that rifle and the scope is still fine. smile

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How the scope is used makes a difference. A guy who owns a stable full of scoped rifles and seldom makes adjustments may swear that his scopes are reliable, and he is right.

OTOH, a bit of research into the history of the metallic silhouette game will show that many scopes failed the repeatablity test when elevation knobs were cranked up and down numerous times. Some companies seemed to just slap tall knobs on basic hunting scopes and call them silhouette or target scopes. Didn't work. Then Weaver came out with their Micro-Trac system for their silhouette scopes, then offered it on their hunting scopes as well. It worked.

I suspect that over the years scope manufacturers have paid more attention to the durability of their adjustments, but I have no authoritative knowledge of that.

As for me, I don't take scope reliability for granted. I am always vigilant as to whether my scopes are performing properly, and I will send them for service if I feel they are not.

Paul



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