Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Van Zwolle's Elk kill with 6.5 Creedmoor

Does anyone know what bullet he used? Range? Just curious.

Saw a pic of he and his elk and the rifle used, but no details.

He used the 129gr SST factory load and the shot was 603yds

LOL, I don't know what to think about that, welcome to the Fire sir.

WVZ is probably a 1% shooter who has the skill to make that shot, but the problem is that somewhere there will be a 99%er who lacks the skill, but who will take the shot, wound an elk, which is then likely to be lost.

Jeff

Will post the video when we get caught up on our editing.

I can promise you he did not take the shot lightly and had been diligently practicing with the rifle before the hunt.

It was a custom Rem 700 in a Greybull stock with one of our custom Leupolds setup just to test the Creedmoor on elk.

Wayne is a very fine shot but in my experience that is not exactly a 1% shot.

We were on a low hill overlooking the elk with no wind. There was really no concern about making a good hit but we were somewhat worried about bullet performance.

I would say that is as far as one should shoot a bull with that bullet. It opened up well with a hit right behind the shoulder and exited the other side. The bull ran about a 50yd circle and piled up about where he was at the shot.

I do know this is the farthest Wayne has ever shot a big game animal and he certainly would not have done it without knowing he could place the shot with absolute precision.

I shot the rifle to get the data for the turret and it really was fun to shoot. It almost seemed to be �softer� than a .243 Win with the 105s at 3000fps. Basically it would shoot the factory load in 1 hole if you could manage the trigger.

I think the 140gr AMAX would be a better hunting load but Hornady only had 129SST loaded at the time.

Ok, sounds legit, thought you were pulling my leg. I can believe it, perhaps that is why details were not given, many would NOT believe it, or try replicating it.

No doubt the Creed is there with other 6.5s and a 129 SST likely did about what a 270/130 would have done. I'd guess an SST bullet would be better for long distance, but not ideal for close shot encountering heavy bone, but just a hunch. Long range is where a bullet like this and the Amax strut their stuff, esp. on lungs broadside.

I have no doubts about WVZ skill.

Thanks John.

Wayne has come out and hunted with us on several occasions. He is very conservative about shooting at long range on game.

We will be hunting with him again this year here in Wyoming and another elk hunt in New Mexico with Milligan Brand.

I think he will use one of our 243 Wins with the 105 VLD for both hunts. Hornady is sending out a guy to hunt on the elk hunt so we may have to set something up to shoot a Hornady bullet.

He was here this June and we did a lot of long range shooting (out to 1 mile) on steel.

He had one of our 2.5-8s on a Marlin Lever Gun in .338 and shot that out to 600yds. It was really kinda cool but I personally prefer a good bolt gun. That silly lever would shoot the factory ammo into an inch at 100yds.

Regarding the 140 AMAX or 129 SST on an elk shoulder I personally think it would be no problem even at very close range. The Creedmoor isn�t a real high velocity round. The factory stuff was 129 SST at 2990 fps.

John,

Are you pretty much a VLD shooter or have you used any other types at long range? Any Lapua Scenars?
They seem to have a high BC.

No offense but I disintegrated a 145 BTSP at 30 yds from a 7mag on my first WT deer, on the Shoulder knuckle. That was using an older Speer book load that was supposed to be 280 speeds, yet Speer revised the data, as the test gun was not showing normal speeds, and the load was hot/max. That deer was facing me at an angle, and I was up about 12 feet in a stand.

I would have to do bullet test to get comfortable steering one into a Bull Elks shoulder at close range, but you may be right.

Thanks John.

I doubt that more than 1% of hunters have any business shooting game at 600+ yards and probably not more than 5% have any business shooting game at over 300 yards. At least that is the disillation of my range/hunting experience.

Jeff

SU35,

I personally don�t have any firsthand experience with the Scenars. The reported BC, while high, is slightly lower than the VLD and I don�t know how well they will perform on game.

If Lapua came out with a high BC version I would be interested in testing them fist in media then on game. I do know other guys are reporting good result on game and have no reason to doubt the reports.

65BR,

I only base my opinion on shooting other AMAXs and while they don�t hold together they will get through and the real important stuff is directly behind the shoulder.

260Remguy,

I don�t want to act like a shot at 600yds doesn�t require the right equipment and a competent shooter but under a no wind condition with a rifle zeroed at 600yds and a solid prone position it is something that is within the ability of any hunter willing to practice.

With yhat said you could use about anything over a 243 for elk

You list some pretty ridged rules there for a mountain hunting trip, not to mention that is a very light caliber at 600 yards..

Sorry and no offense but I believe in doing my hunting before I shoot and I can normally close that 600 yard distance to at least 300 yards with a little luck, and if not I'll just pass..

It just doesn't take much of an error to shoot the front legs or guts at that range and I have seen too many long range shooters with short memories..

I have come to the conclusion that a really good shot will hit game at about any range, but where he hits them is the question..A lousy shot will simply miss..Therefore I don't belive in long range shooting on big game.

But inasmuch as its legal, to each his own, and I only hold myself to my self imposed standard or 400 yards as max under perfect conditions with a rest, and mostly I stay withing 300 yards max..

I have not always held myself to this standard, I imposed it on myself about 50 years ago after I had a couple of bad tracking jobs and lost a couple of game animals because of my shooting at very extended ranges.

My last long shot ( I backslided from my sworn oth) was in 1993 on a Black Wildebeest at 800 yards running at the insistence of PH Phillip Price, who thanks I can't miss, (have it on film) and I hit him 3 out of 5 times one pretty shallow and two pretty good hits..He went about 2 or 3 miles but due to a great tracker and a PH that knew his country we got him. Found two bullets, neither was expanded and could have been reloaded. I had some guilt on that hunt and swore never to backtrack again. I have lived up to that so far..

Just a different opinnion and the reasoning as to why..

Ray,

What was legitimate 50yrs ago and what is today are very different.

Big areas of improvement:

1. Laser rangefinders
2. VLD bullets that perform at all reasonable ranges
3. Reliable optics that allow the shooter to zero the rifle for the exact range
4. Reticles that allow for precise wind compensation
5. Skilled spotters
6. Improvements in shooting techniques
7. Software that allows the hunter to accurately predict wind drift and trajectories under varying conditions
8. Stock designs that allow the hunter to get close to the accuracy potential of the rifle from field positions
9. Light weight portable shooting rest like bipods and tripods
10. Reliable triggers that allow repeatable safe trigger weights down to 1lb or even below
11. Rifles that are extremely accurate using reliable hunting ammo

I do applaud you on knowing your limits even if you backslide once in awhile.

Getting closer is great if possible but at some point we all decide we are close enough to make the shot and moving closer is either not possible or not a good idea.

The reason we all hunt is a very personal thing and I don�t take offense at anyone sharing a well thought out opinion.

Thanks

I agree with all those things that have been significantly improved over the years. However, the most important of all, the shooter, has not, that I can tell, improved all that much over the same time span.

TT

Wayne I agreee with the above but that is mostly equipment.

Conditions of the shot still matter.

IMHO, the most important aspects of the success of the shot Van Zwoll made were-

1) Wayne is an excellent shot.

2) He had a rifle he knew well and had practiced with/had confidence in.

3) There was little wind.

4) The Elk was not moving.

5) There was time to get in a solid shooting postion and range/take the shot.

Here's a pic taken through a spotter showing a 4" clay bird in the upper right at 950 yards.

We are hitting within inches of the orange clay bird with
mountain rifles in 260 Rem and 6.5x284. Due to a range finder and good trigger job, nothing more.

It's not that difficult as many here make it out to be.

I would disagree that shooter have not improved over the last 50yrs.

In about any type of competition a score that would win a match 50yrs ago is not even remotely competitive today.

The really cool thing about human performance is the ability to continuously improve. It was once considered impossible to run a 4 minute mile but now days more than a few runners seem able to do just such a feat.

The same holds true as far as shooting is concerned. I can tell you I am a much better shooter than I was even 3 years ago and a lot of that is in not accepting conventional limits on how well I can actually shoot from field positions.

The biggest limit is always in our minds and if we see what other guys are doing we learn that things we once thought impossible might not be and our limits are sometimes just self imposed.

SU, first of all go back and read the list again at the bottom of my last post.

You can have the best equipment in the world and if the conditions are poor, some shots are low percentage affairs.

And when the wind is up, there are no "chip shots" at long range. Period.

And darn sure not on living breathing target with legs under them that can move when the trigger is pulled..

And not taking shots at game that is running also helps..LOL

It has been my experience that hunters who pay significant sums of $$ to hunt out of state, with or without a guide, are more likely to practice then the guy who buys a tag, a box of ammo, and a 12-pack of Coors the night before opening day of deer season in Abilene, KS, Morrisville, VT, or Bridgeton, ME. If there are, as Mule Deer recently stated, 15M hunters in the US, that means that there are probably less than 150K, 1%, who are competent to shoot an elk at 600 yards. Overall, I don't think that hunters have become better shooters in the past 50 years, but I do think that technology has improved and since fewer people are hunting, the subset of those competent to shoot at longer ranges is a larger percentage of a smaller universe.

Jeff