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Originally Posted by cooperfan
I can't believe what I am reading here. A guy that has killed 2 Buff's telling a guy that does it for a living that he is doing it wrong, basically. Unreal.

Jorge, I'm sure someone can instruct you on how to fly.



I doubt it, but wrong is wrong and if you took the time to read what was posted initially or read the thread in it's entirety you might find it enlightening, not to mention what PHs who hunt DG for a living say, and if you believe that a buffalo's hide will prevent a decent soft from penetrating, well by all means use all the solids you want. This is a forum with opinions and you are free to draw your own conclusions. One question you might also ask (or see for yourself) is how much DG hunting goes on in certain areas of Africa. Living there doesn't make one an expert.

Last edited by jorgeI; 10/02/10.

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BTW, told the outfitter what I was bringing for ammo. Hornady 300 gr. DGX and DGS. He said perfect. He even said he buy all our extra ammo. He stated that he really likes the new Hornadys. I got that from 3 othe Zim phs, while researching the hunt, for my son and I. Soo, we are each taking 3 boxes of ammo. 1box of softs and 2 boxes of solids. My son is going to use factory ammo, and I'm using handloads.


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Originally Posted by jorgeI
Originally Posted by cooperfan
I can't believe what I am reading here. A guy that has killed 2 Buff's telling a guy that does it for a living that he is doing it wrong, basically. Unreal.

Jorge, I'm sure someone can instruct you on how to fly.



I doubt it, but wrong is wrong and if you took the time to read what was posted initially or read the thread in it's entirety you might find it enlightening, not to mention what PHs who hunt DG for a living say, and if you believe that a buffalo's hide will prevent a decent soft from penetrating, well by all means use all the solids you want. This is a forum with opinions and you are free to draw your own conclusions. One question you might also ask (or see for yourself) is how much DG hunting goes on in certain areas of Africa. Living there doesn't make one an expert.


I have nothing but the greatest respect for anyone with a PH ticket in Africa. But I can't believe that we really have much of an argument on the table. For buffalo, I would bet Jorge's next house payment that fully 80% of DG PH's would recomend a quality expanding point for first round on a buff and solids thereafter.


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Originally Posted by jorgeI
Originally Posted by cooperfan
I can't believe what I am reading here. A guy that has killed 2 Buff's telling a guy that does it for a living that he is doing it wrong, basically. Unreal.

Jorge, I'm sure someone can instruct you on how to fly.



I doubt it, but wrong is wrong and if you took the time to read what was posted initially or read the thread in it's entirety you might find it enlightening, not to mention what PHs who hunt DG for a living say, and if you believe that a buffalo's hide will prevent a decent soft from penetrating, well by all means use all the solids you want. This is a forum with opinions and you are free to draw your own conclusions. One question you might also ask (or see for yourself) is how much DG hunting goes on in certain areas of Africa. Living there doesn't make one an expert.


jorge, I appreciate everything you post, but this doesn'nt make you an expert, either. Not dissin' on you, but back up and take a breath...ole buddy grin

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Red Leg I think if you really research it, the conventional wisdom for buffalo is even more to strictly softs. When I hunted with John Sharp, I spent lots of time on the range with my 416 working up loads just as you say, a soft followed by solids. When it came to crunch time, my first shot (400gr A-Frame) broke the shoulder and later revealed it also shot clean through the heart and was on the off side) anyhow the buffalo took off on three legs and went into some mushes. I immediately topped off the mag and when John saw I was putting in a solid, he said to stick with softs. Every year when I go to the DSC convention I am fortunate enough to get invited to a few affairs that involve PHs and naturally these and other subjects come up and I can tell you without reservation quite a few recommend strictly softs for clients anyway and for them aince they dont't know what's around the next corner, and those that carry doubles, have one barrel loaded with each. jorge


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Md: I am the first to say I am FAR from being an expert and my post was not directed at you, but anybody from the Pope on down that says a soft won't penetrate a buffalo's hide or that a buffalo's chest kill zone is 1" square is plain wrong.


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I used a 300 gr TSX on a quartering facing shot two months ago and didn't need to worry whether I had sledgehammers or not in the mag. He was at a very odd, steep upward angle and the bullet clipped the near shoulder transited the heart and lodged in the spine behind the lungs. That bullet traveled through about three feet of very old, very big bull and the results could not have been more decisive.


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Many PHs (as covered in African Hunter magazine) suggest clients come with TSXs or Barnes solids.


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Originally Posted by BossLady
Many PHs (as covered in African Hunter magazine) suggest clients come with TSXs or Barnes solids.

Those TSX are great. I only recently changed exclusively to them, due to difficulties in obtaining them in South Africa. But found a supplier.
I shoot the 130gr in the .308 Win at about 3200 fps.(Same rifle my clients use if they choose not to bring their own.)
and the .375 I use the 235gr also at about 3000fps. Their penetration is unmatched.
Man I get goosebumps just thinking about them....


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interesting...

you hear so much about the 270 grain .375 TSX that i wondered if there was something wrong with the 235 grain TSX.


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There was a time when the solids ruled the roost for almost all hunting in Africa. That had a lot to do with the crumpling reputation of the cup and core softs which were the only game in town.

Those days have long since past us by. However there are still countless people involved in this business that cannot get beyond what was the history of the manufacturing designs of the old soft point bullets. I sometimes wonder what it took to get some of these folks to switch from Black powder muzzle loaders to a center fire rifle?

Today the bonded bullets are gaining the respect of most experienced PH's and outfitters, I strongly suggest them or the TSX to all my hunters. The future is the monolithic bullets that have no lead. They are very much like a semi mushrooming solid.

The TSX has provided the greatest consistency and deepest penetration of any bullet ever used on the 1000's of animals we have taken through our camps. I cannot see any reason to use anything else on all but the biggest thick skinned game. There is simply no reason for the soft first, then solid theory of old. Just stack the magazine with TSX bullets and you have both on every shot.

As far as the weight when speaking for the 375, With about well over 50 buffalo taken with them now in the last several years, the 270's have been the better choice. The 300's work great, but the additional 300fps for the 270's trumps the 30 grains advantage of the 300's. The penetration is usually better with the 270's, and they open more complete. There is something to be said for that extra 300fps with that 270gr chunk of solid copper.

I remember presenting this at a public seminar. There happened to be a fella from Barnes company in the audience. He was introduced to me after the presentation and said that The Barnes company had also come to the same conclusion now. The 270gr was actually a better over all performer in the 375HH then the 300gr is on Buffalo and Eland size game.

I've never shot a more accurate bullet in my 375 then the 270 TSX either. At 2830fps this bullet will penetrate as well as a solid, but open up to a larger diameter and continue to push through anything in it's path.


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Originally Posted by JJHACK



As far as the weight when speaking for the 375, With about well over 50 buffalo taken with them now in the last several years, the 270's have been the better choice. The 300's work great, but the additional 300fps for the 270's trumps the 30 grains advantage of the 300's. The penetration is usually better with the 270's, and they open more complete. There is something to be said for that extra 300fps with that 270gr chunk of solid copper.


And the bigger 375s like 375 Wby and 375 RUM will give those velocities with the 300s and a 378 would do it with 350 Barnes



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Yeah toad,
Nothing wrong with the 270gr TSX.I will use them, but for another application. The reason why I have gone with the 235gr is quite simple. In the case that a client uses my rifle in .308, and he has no problem with me carrying a backup rifle, it will always mean that , if I have to step in I usually have a quite far and running shot. Thus , with a bit more speed and fps I dont quite have to calculate too much lead in trying to get a shot in. I always want my client to down his own animal, so I will leave it till the last. Then the lighter bullet gets there a little quicker. So the reason why the lighter bullets , is solely on a backup perspective in preventing a lossed animal. Hope that makes sense...

...and regarding what JJHack said, I could not agree more. To me there is no way you can compare softs with TSX. The TSX are simply in a league of their own. Also, dont understand the logic of putting a soft in followed by the solids. Are the solids there to fix what the soft could not achieve first up...why not then just go with the solids in the firts place. But sure...TSX over all!

Last edited by KMG; 10/03/10.

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It is SO nice to see some folks who have actually "been there, done that" speaking up for Barnes. The experts (LOL) we all too often hear from have never used them but know all about them.

The new 130 TTSX is a deadly killer in deer sized game, we use it in the ancient, obsolete 300 Savage (just ask the experts) in 99s starting it out at 2800 with 4198. Shoots sub MOA and every Deer and Antelope taken thus far has been a one shot kill with little or no tracking.

Barnes rules: 400 Whelen 350gr "old X" (we have a hoard), 250 yard one shot kill. (the 350 and 400 old X are also great in the 400 H&H)

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Originally Posted by BossLady
It is SO nice to see some folks who have actually "been there, done that" speaking up for Barnes.


That which is perfect needs no defending. Barnes monos are great under the circumstances in which they work best. That's not really different than other bullets. But as has been pointed out previously on here, there really are no bad bullets these days. African game and typical distances seem to show monos in their best light.


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Jorge1,
I don't disagree with your posts at all, but I believe their are options to be considered and they work..All the old guys are not gone and I know many PHs today that prefer a client to use solids even today...I think if you hunt with a PH, you should abide by his suggestions, but thats just me, nobody has to follow that advise, its your hunt and your footing the bill.

I Belive the lighter monolithics are great buffalo bullets like the .270 gr. TSX for instance, and prefer it to the 300 or 350 in a monolithic as I believe velocity is what makes a monolithics work..

I also am satisfied that Swifts are excellent, GS Custom HPs, Nosler partitions work, most of todays bullets kill buffalo well on broadside shots, and I don't place much faith in how a bullet kills one or two buffalo, I like to see their long haul record.

For my part, I want a flat nose solid or a cup point, IF I am dealing with a wounded bull, if I am shooting a bull length wise from either end, otherwise I am perfectly content with any of todays premium bullets for a broadside shot and yes I do have my favorites.

My favorites, for what its worth, are the 350 gr. 375 Woodleighs, the 450 gr. 416 Woodlleighs, the GS Customs bullets and I still like the good old 400 gr. Nosler Partition in the .416. I respect others choice of bullets most of the time, and that is their business not mine to start with.


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Can't disagree with anything you say Ray, your last post I'm in complete agreement with.


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Originally Posted by atkinsonhunting
Jorge1,
I don't disagree with your posts at all, but I believe their are options to be considered and they work..All the old guys are not gone and I know many PHs today that prefer a client to use solids even today...I think if you hunt with a PH, you should abide by his suggestions, but thats just me, nobody has to follow that advise, its your hunt and your footing the bill.

I Belive the lighter monolithics are great buffalo bullets like the .270 gr. TSX for instance, and prefer it to the 300 or 350 in a monolithic as I believe velocity is what makes a monolithics work..

I also am satisfied that Swifts are excellent, GS Custom HPs, Nosler partitions work, most of todays bullets kill buffalo well on broadside shots, and I don't place much faith in how a bullet kills one or two buffalo, I like to see their long haul record.

For my part, I want a flat nose solid or a cup point, IF I am dealing with a wounded bull, if I am shooting a bull length wise from either end, otherwise I am perfectly content with any of todays premium bullets for a broadside shot and yes I do have my favorites.

My favorites, for what its worth, are the 350 gr. 375 Woodleighs, the 450 gr. 416 Woodlleighs, the GS Customs bullets and I still like the good old 400 gr. Nosler Partition in the .416. I respect others choice of bullets most of the time, and that is their business not mine to start with.



Ray, where do you get ahold of your GS Custom bullets. They are as close to Barnes TSX that you will get. Their factory is about 3 miles from where I stay. I since stopped using them , because there is now a 12 week waiting time on an order, and as you know with the amount of rounds I shoot , I simply cannot wait for them that long. Is it not sad that it is easier to get a hold of Barnes,which is foreign, than bullets that are made 3 miles down the road. But GS Custom are really good. I have not had one failure on them ever. I use to use their HV monolithics bullets, and still have a couple that I will shoot out.


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Originally Posted by KMG
Originally Posted by BossLady
Many PHs (as covered in African Hunter magazine) suggest clients come with TSXs or Barnes solids.

Those TSX are great. I only recently changed exclusively to them, due to difficulties in obtaining them in South Africa. But found a supplier.
I shoot the 130gr in the .308 Win at about 3200 fps.(Same rifle my clients use if they choose not to bring their own.)
and the .375 I use the 235gr also at about 3000fps. Their penetration is unmatched.
Man I get goosebumps just thinking about them....


So you are not putting the TSX and their ilk in the softpoint category? If not, then the whole argument is off base. I lump any expanding bullet into the softpoint category. Some are decidedly tougher than others. I suspect that most handloaders in the US will also make that distinction. I have personally taken buffalo with Woodleigh solids, Woodleigh Softpoints. Hawk Softpoints, Barnes monolithic solids, Barnes TSX, and RWS H-Mantles. Reaction to the aforementioned softpoints on buff I have shot, and those shot in my hunting parties lead me to the conclusion that they were more effective than solids. Now, if I need to follow up a wounded buff, then I want all solids. If I were a PH backing up my client, then I would want solids. However, based on my observations, and those of several PH's who specialize in DG in multiple countries, I want the first shot with a premium expanding bullet.


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Originally Posted by hatari
Originally Posted by KMG
Originally Posted by BossLady
Many PHs (as covered in African Hunter magazine) suggest clients come with TSXs or Barnes solids.

Those TSX are great. I only recently changed exclusively to them, due to difficulties in obtaining them in South Africa. But found a supplier.
I shoot the 130gr in the .308 Win at about 3200 fps.(Same rifle my clients use if they choose not to bring their own.)
and the .375 I use the 235gr also at about 3000fps. Their penetration is unmatched.
Man I get goosebumps just thinking about them....


So you are not putting the TSX and their ilk in the softpoint category? If not, then the whole argument is off base. I lump any expanding bullet into the softpoint category. Some are decidedly tougher than others. I suspect that most handloaders in the US will also make that distinction. I have personally taken buffalo with Woodleigh solids, Woodleigh Softpoints. Hawk Softpoints, Barnes monolithic solids, Barnes TSX, and RWS H-Mantles. Reaction to the aforementioned softpoints on buff I have shot, and those shot in my hunting parties lead me to the conclusion that they were more effective than solids. Now, if I need to follow up a wounded buff, then I want all solids. If I were a PH backing up my client, then I would want solids. However, based on my observations, and those of several PH's who specialize in DG in multiple countries, I want the first shot with a premium expanding bullet.


No , I dont put TSX and softs in the same category. A soft to me is something that has been bonded. With a lead core. My Engineering Degree tells me that something that has been bonded can fail. I have had a couple of failures in the past with big brand soft bullets on game, so have turned away from them completely. I exclusively use TSX now in all my calibres.
I guess it goes about preferences, since there are many different experiences and points of view about this topic.

My question to you is why you back up with solids? To do the job the soft could not do in the first place?

Its a retorical question, so I really dont want an answer from you. Its all about personel preference at the end of the day. As long as everyone is safe once the buff is on the truck...


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South Africa, Namibia, Mozambique, Zimbabwe, Zambia
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