Home Forums Lever Action Central Big Bore Levers 444 or 1895

I have been getting the urge to add a big bore lever to the cabnet. My brother has an 1995G. I have shot it a little. do not like guns with shower heads. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />I cant make up my mind. I want this to hunt white tail, black bears and maybe moose in Canada. But I like a gun that will do a duel service. and the 444 can be handlaoded down with 180 and 240 grain bullets and work with varmits. and heavy hard cast for the big stuff, making it handier. and spending more time out of the cabnet. But the 45/70 has a better premium bullet selection. any thoughts as to one better then the other? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

Flip a coin. The deer, black bear, hog, elk, moose, caribou, pronghorn, coyote, grizzly or gnat's ass hit with a well-placed shot using an appropriate bullet from either won't know the difference.

Jackfish said it well. The 444 is more versatile IMHO, but factory selection is not as good as the 45-70. The 240gr. REM loading is what gave the 444 a bad name. I consider it marginal even for deer.

Complete myth! In tests and on game the Remington 240 grain JSP 444 Marlin ammunition performs about as well as the 265 grain Hornady. I have a friend in Montana who has used it successfully on elk for close to 30 years.




The Remington 240 gr. bullet on the left, and
the Hornady 265 gr. softnose on the right.
Source: Dan Martinez, The Sportsman Online

Remington quickly changed the construction of the bullet in the 1970s after complaints that the original pistol bullet was blowing up.

Jackfish--Are you telling me the 240gr.REM load did not give the 444 a bad name? they must have changed it(if they truly did) for a reason, right? Do you own/shoot a 444? Have you ever hit a deer or bear on the shoulder point with the REM 240gr? Also, what was the test medium for these penetration results?

I'm sure the original 240 grain load did. Remington's first response was a 265 grain offering, later replaced both with a new 240 grain bullet designed to better withstand the 2300+ fps it was loaded to.

Every deer or bear I have shot with my 444 was a bang-flop kill. I'm mean not even one step. Save for the one I shot, a 51/2 year-old doe, with the 240gr REM load. It ran 80yds into a thicket. The penetration was nowhere close to what I'm used to seeing. This was the one and only time I will ever use this load on big game.

thanks guys. Jack do you have the web site that you got this info from? I am curious about the medea also, and in your data I am surprised that the 265 hornady didn't do better. It is listed in hornady's site as a rifle bullet. But i have seen 240XTP's come very close to shedding their core at muzzleloader velocities, on shoulder shots. Hornady probably knew this and that's why the 265grain was added. But I am curious how the 270speer gold dot versus the 265 hornady would do. Or some of the beartooth hard cast. any other links or info would be great.

Hornady's 265 has been around a long time. I remember reading an article about 15 years ago Bob Milek wrote, they were on a Canadian Moose hunt. The 265's worked after a fashion, but one of the Moose took 5 hits.
The 444 should really shine as a hunting round with 300 gr bullets.

frontstuffer �

First, Marlin has quite making �showerheads�. They stopped in 2002 I believe. Although you still find new guns for sale with the ported barrels, the new GG�s, GS�s and full-length 1895�s are unported.

For downloading the .45-70 you can go as light as 250g with a Barnes X, but I shoot 300g cast at 1167fps using a paltry 13.5g HS-6 and a CCI 200 primer. About half the recoil of a .30-30 and near one-hole accuracy out to 50 yards, after which the trajectory becomes somewhat problematic. My girls love these loads.

Since I got it two years ago (three?), my .45-70 has become my most-shot firearm. Plinker loads, hunting loads, and what I call my �Rhino Blaster� loads, 460g hardcast at 1812fps. From 7 foot-pounds recoil to 48 foot-pounds, squirrel heads to rhino, my loads have it covered. I don�t know how you could be more with a 444.

I�m not knocking the 444, but if you don�t handload there is a much wider selection of factory ammo for the .45-70. If you do handload, it appears to me that there is a better selection of premium bullets for the .45-70, with more load data available for a wider range of bullets as well.

Whatever you chose, I�m sure you�ll enjoy it, and that�s what its all about.

I got to tell you, the 444 will take any of the game he mentions, and do it more comfortably. My 450 Marlin (no quips about 45-70 verses 450 marlin, please) is just not as much fun to shoot after about 20 rounds.

I mold cast bullets for each, and would trust the 444 with either the 245 or 300 for deer/elk/black bear any where in its usable range.

I use the 270gr gold-dot over a healthy load of H322. Shoots 1.25" groups or better, and will absolutely flatten any black bear or deer there is. the 300gr uni-cor is also very good and so is the cast stuff. The Hornady load was specifically designed for 444 velocities and is adequate but not as good as the others. To the best of my knowledge, the Rem 240gr is still the same 44mag bullet thet they have been loading all along and has never been changed. It is IMHO too frangible @ 444 velocities.

Coyote what i mean by shower head is muzzle break. or ported. I hand load for my 44mag and my brothers 1895G 45/70 .I sit next to him and spot now and then. I don't like it.It feals like he is sitting behind me.and I am getting hit with the muzzle blast. The other issue I have, is Last year My dad brother and I went bear hunting for the first time this fall. Our guide had an issue with the 45/70 guide. We were hunting out of small pop tent blinds. The year before the guide had a hunter with a 45/70 guide. That took a shot with the muzzle inside the tent. The bear was trying to do a grab and run with the bait pile. According to the guide the tent was damaged, and the hunters ears were still ringing and buzzing 4 days later when he left to go home. I can hand load for either rifle. thats not an issue. Has anybody seen data on hardcast bullets on weight retension and penetration. I have been in Marlin owners Beartooths and LBT sights. Read a bunch of there stuff. They dont really discuss it. and there just is not that much data on the 444. I havent been able to get into load your own in a while. Sight under construction. One other thing. Has anybody had accuracy problems with the ballard rifled rifles with 200 or 240 grain bullets? It seems with the faster twist 1 in 20 vers 1 in 32 of the micro groove could be a problem. thanks

FS,

There are several good handloads, bullets, and company loadings. Because of the interest in the 45-70 over the past years and the advent of the web with regard to big bore levers, the 444 Marlin is enjoying a bit of a rebirth.

Company loadings from CorBon, Grizzly and Buffalo Bore make the 444 Marlin a serious contender for heavyweights and takes pressures to their limits in the Marlin 1895 lever. Conley Precision Ammo loads from light to heavy with 250 HG Partitions (excellent on deer, better penetration than 265 Hornady) to 300 grain Speer SP.

Dynamic jacketed bullets available for reloading are made by Nosler, Hornady, Hawk, Speer, and Swift. I would like to see Alaska Bullet Works design some .430s around their very fine Kodiak bullet, its a dandy in 45-70. There are a multitude of gas check hard casts that would take the 444 Marlin into bone crushing status.

I am reluctant to supply loadings for the 444 Marlin to the private sector, as much care goes into assessing pressure in a lever. Lets just say the well documented H322, H335, ReL#7 and IMR4198 all work well in the 444 Marlin. As far as pressure, the same care applies to a turn bolt repeater, but were talking between 40K-50K psi vs. 60K-72k psi in a turn bolt. The margin for stupidity is a little greater with the turnbolt. In addition, I'm shooting a Win 94 Big Bore Carbine, which will allow more pressure than the Marlin, around 7,500 psi in chamber pressure, which translates into the Winchester being able to take a couple thousand more lbs of bolt thrust. Either way, one must be prudent when dealing with hot rodding a tube feed lever gun.

Up till a couple years ago I loaded and shot exclusively 250 gr. HG Partitions and the Hornady 265 gr. Interlock. Both are real deer slayers. In the past, I took the 250 gr. Partitions to some extreme speeds in the 444 Marlin, they are flat shooters an hold together well. Have only recovered a couple as most shots were within 80 yards and sailed through. I think its fair to say they consistantly will give 24 inches of penetration with no problem. However, I wanted to take bull elk with a heavier loading and I was curious about the CorBon 280 gr. SP Expander load. I used it in 2001 to take a big bodied 4x4 (around 650 lbs on the hoof). Hunting about 40 miles south of Glenwood Springs and Silt, CO. I tracked a feeder heard coming back from their morning run from 7,800 ft. to return to beds and ruminate at 11,000 ft. I was planning on infiltrating the timber area where the heard was bedding, when this bull got out of his bed around 11:30 a.m. and headed just outside the timber line. I was hanging out on a finger formation up top and was set up 125 yards from him at that time. I proceeded to lower the Big Bore and put the cross hairs on the big boy with my 2.5 power fixed scope. I drilled him broadside at about 120 yards and he went down hard. I took some of the shoulder bone on the high back portion where it thins a bit. Went through completely and exited the off side. Good size chunks of bloody lung tissue were pushed out the off side hole. I was impressed by the CorBon SP. After that, I wondered what their FMJ 305 Penetrator would do on a Grizz charge. I'll bet some serious damage.

These days, I reload and shoot the 338 Win Mag and 7mm Rem Mag much more than the 444 Marlin. I almost hesitate to handload it anymore with the ammo available. It is rather pricey today for the premium stuff at 35-45 dollars for 20 rounds. Thats why the Conley and Hornady goods are appealing for the price.

The older Marlin rifling was 1-38. Beartooth has performed several loads with 1-20 vs. 1-38 and from what I saw, up to 355 gr. can give outstanding accuracy in either. I have one of Winchester's BB Black Shadows with 1-12 twist that was issued with the early released models. Shoots anything tight for hunting accuracy.

I read once and article by Poco Kelly where he drove 330 grain Cast Performance LBTs at 2000 fps and completely penetrated 40 inches of wet telephone books with exit, leaving a 2-1/2" radial wound channel all the way through.

I do not believe penetration is a real concern with the 444 Marlin when heavy weight bullets are used on big bodies. I would say penetration hangs right in their with the 45-70 and 450 Marlin.

Take Care,
rossi

Thanks guys. The hunt for a 444 has begun. Stopped at Cabala's at Dundee a couple days ago. No Marlins in the rack new or used. But they have Henry's. So much for the worlds foremost outfitter. Planning on trips to a couple more gun shops <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> in the next few weeks. Like to find a shop with two or three in stock. The wood on some are better then others.Have been shopping at gunbroker and guns America but would rather buy local if possible. Thanks again to all for the info and thoughts.

Check WalMart. They probably don't have any in the store, but can order them for you. A buddy of mine just got his there for a little over $400.

IF your looking for a 35 caliber or larger lever action, Id point out that anything the 35 rem in a lever action marlin and 444 marlin can do the 450 marlin or 45/70 can do BETTER, I owned and hunted with a 444 marlin for several years. yet
if you upgrade to the 450marlin or a 358 win in a browning BLR your in an even better ball park, I sure don,t miss my 444 since upgrading to the 358 win and 450 marlin BLR CARBINES <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

http://www.browning.com/products/catalog...amp;type_id=006


I love the lever action carbines, my marlin 44 mags killed a truck load of deer, but my BLRS are much better rifles, and see the rockys ELK HUNTING most years
BTW thier available in 30/06.270 win 300 win mag,325 wsm

My 444s knocks em dead, I started reading this thread but gave up & decided to just tell you I will be using my .444 when my Bull Moose season opens September 24/05. The last Bull Moose I shot with it took one 265gr Hornady pill, took a stagering 2 step sideways & fell down dead. No need for tracking. The shot was 150 yards, busted a rib going in took out the lungs & busted a rib on the other side but didn't exit.

--Ken

Blame the incompetent hunter not the .444! I have never had to shoot more than two into any animal I have harvested, usually only one required, occasionally I use a second shot to stop the kick'n & thrash'n so I can start the field dressing.
--Ken

Ken... Sure like the picture of the 444. Here is one of mine with the a nilgai it hammered in the Spring of this year. A home, hard-cast 265-grain bullet dropped in like a brick.




And one of my Texas desert mule deer my 444 dropped...


The cartridge and guns are awesome... some might think of them as deep woods rifles but I hunt the coastal plains and high desert with mine! What you shoot with it stay's put!