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Originally Posted by Swampman700
Please don't shoot deer with a 110 grain round ball.

My .45 balls weigh about 138 gr and I have never had to track any deer. Deer shot with the cap and ball .45 have never gone anywhere, the last one made one jump over my fence and fell dead when it landed.
99% of deer I hit with the .54 round ball fall in place.
I shot a running deer at 125 yards with my TC .50 and a Maxi ball by pulling the right lead and raising a foot high. She was down in 25 yards because of her speed. Perfect shot behind the shoulder. I have dropped many deer on a full out run with my muzzle loaders.
Only a bad hit will cause a problem with any gun. I know a guy that shot a small doe with a 12 gauge slug, made a bad hit and had to track her in the snow. He shot again every time he caught up and it took 11 shots to stop her. There might have been 4# of edible meat left, the poor thing was a rag.
I help guys here every year find deer they shoot with 7mm and .300 mags, some we never find. One 9 point went a mile and quit bleeding in 100 yards. I knew where he was going and we found him. There was a hole in him so large you could stick your head in him.
Nothing will replace a good hit and a bad hit will not drop a deer. They are very easy to kill with the proper hit and even a small gun will work.
Yes, I have lost a few deer and it was never with a muzzle loader. It was either a poor hit with a bow or the wrong bullet for the velocity in a modern rifle or revolver.
I never lost a deer with a shotgun and slugs.
You are going to lose a deer now and then, if you don't you are not hunting enough, it WILL happen. You have to get over it.

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Lead must be heavier where you live. The .440 roundball isn't enough. The .490 is ok and the .530 is enough. Ballistic charts don't lie.


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Ballistically the 45 is equivalent to a 30 - 30. Those that say a 45 cal roundball for deer isn't sufficent, well let's say their experience doesn't match mine. The question will be the range you can shoot it accurately. I would comfortably shoot my 45 flinty to 75 yards with a roundball. The deer will have a double lung hole punched through it while everyone debates the effectiveness.

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Originally Posted by Swampman700
Lead must be heavier where you live. The .440 roundball isn't enough. The .490 is ok and the .530 is enough. Ballistic charts don't lie.

I do not hunt with charts! laugh
I go through that problem with gun hunters all the time when they read muzzle energy in a book. That has never, ever killed an animal. Bullet work is what does the job not loading for the highest velocity or energy.
I know it is hard to explain but only vast experience killing deer and doing a necropsy on each will show the truth.
A .440 ball is 130 gr and a .457 ball is 143 gr. Seems to me 13 gr is not going to change a thing when there is only .017" difference in diameter. The weight difference is only an air gun pellet.
It does seem strange that the light balls and low velocities are so effective but it was that way long ago and still is, deer have not grown armor plates.
I use 300 to 420 gr boolits in my revolvers at 1160 to 1350 fps and they also kill deer like crazy but not much better then a .45 Flinter and both are actually better then the wrong bullet in a .300 mag.
It still comes down to what the ball or boolit does in the animal.
Boolit weight will give penetration way over a light boolit or ball but remember what it did inside the deer before leaving is only the thing that counts.
Let me give you an illustration of penetration with a 420 gr .475 boolit from a revolver. Energy from a book is WAY less then a high power rifle. But some will tell you it is wasted on the off side of a deer but it makes mush of the heart and lungs before leaving. It does not ruin meat either. The boolit is very hard and does not deform at all. Just don't line up four deer or you have a lot of work to do! cool
It blew up 4 jugs, shot water 30 feet up, split 2 more and penetrated 14 jugs.
[Linked Image]
This is what it does to a deer.
[Linked Image]
The point is that if I speed this boolit to over 1600 fps it LOSES killing effect and you can lose deer even though energy climbs. Yet I can slow it way down and still kill. This boolit will kill deer at 800 fps.
Please don't read charts and don't put down a round ball.
The muzzle loader is fantastic and a .440 ball will do more then your charts tell you.

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Originally Posted by Swampman700
Lead must be heavier where you live. The .440 roundball isn't enough. The .490 is ok and the .530 is enough. Ballistic charts don't lie.


they may not lie but the often dont tell the truth eather ..
.440 RB=128 grains
.451 RB =138 grains
.454 RB =140 grains

all , depending on the load put out at least 350ftlbs at 100 yards with magnum loads of 120+ grains . over 400ftlb at 100 and over 1400 at the muzzle
put that ball behind the shoulder in through the hart and lungs and the world will turn .



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As stated earlier, 40cal and above is legal in this state, so obviously there are others who believe it is "enough". So, I don't see a problem.

I've not weighed one, but my Lyman BP handbook lists the .445 RB at 133 Grs.

The Lyman BP handbook also provides maximum recommended loads.

Numrich arms:
45cal GO 45-55Grs FFg

TC
45 cal Hawkin the Seneca is listed lower
Dupont
440RB do not exceed 110gr. FFg

Tingle
45cal rifle Dupont 75grs FFFg

Green River Rifle Works CH FFg
45 cal Suggested load 70gr max load 100gr.

H & R max load in 45cal 100gr FFg



Navy arms is sorta out there by themselves
"The following is a list of suggested maximum loads or the Hawkin rifles that are made in the USA. 45 and 50 cal-150grs FFFg powder behind a 500 gr projectile."

They seem to be on an island.

Looking at the load data for 120gr loads the data shows

120gr FFFg C&H

MV 2046 ME 1234Ft/Lbs

100 yds energy 346ft/lbs

If you look at FFg GO

100gr FFg is the highest load listed

MV 2008fps ME 1189ft/lbs
100yds energy 335ft/lbs

The highest load listed for FFFg GO
is 75grs

MV 2025fps ME 1209ft/lbs
100yd energy 341ft/lbs

These are from 28" barrels.

This is an old manual, at the time it was the best I could find. Things may be different now, dono. This is what is was when it was printed.


Added; CR was 1975

Last edited by AJD; 08/21/10.

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Experience is a great thing as long as one survives it.

Generally, there ain't a lot that separates the two however,
Barely making it is a whole lot more satisfying than barely not making it.
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I used Douglas barrels on all of my flint locks and my load has always been 90 gr of FFG in the .45's because it is most accurate.
I use 100 in my .54 (RB) but when I shoot 200 meters I up it to 120 gr. (RS Pyrodex for competition.)
BP is funny and some of those loads will not increase velocity.
There is a point when increasing the charge will stop any increase in velocity and you can actually go backwards. Powder weight has to be added to ball weight because you are pushing more down the bore. There is a point when a lot of unburned powder is blown out the muzzle too. It takes a long barrel when you use more powder.
Some of today's rifles have awful short barrels but most guys use substitute powders.
I will not use FFFG in my rifles.

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Thanks for all the feedback. This was great. I put a deposit on the .45 and should have it in a few weeks.

When I get it I'll have to post a few pictures.


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Ed Rayl would be the fellow to take it out to a .50 so it will be suitable for deer sized game.


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On my scale .440s weigh 110 grains.


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The .45 kills stuff fine, and will if the shooter is doing his job.

Your scale, or your diameter measurement, is off. .440s weight between 118 and 128, depending on alloy, assuming a true .440".




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Originally Posted by Swampman700
On my scale .440s weigh 110 grains.


you need a new scale


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sorry swampman after reading my last post last night . my comment seems alittle curt .

for those without charts , the math isnt hard to do
Determine the volume of a sphere: Diameter cubed (D x D x D)X.5236 X 2,873.5
(2,873.5 is the weight of a cubic inch of pure Pb in grains).
the result is the wieght in grains of your soft lead RB

so lest plug in a .440 RB and see

.440x.440x.440 =.085184
.085184 X.5236 = .0446023
.0446023 X2873.5 = 128.1647
so the grain wieght of a .440 pure lead RB is 128 grains

if it doesnt wieght that . then
1) you have a void in your ball
2) your ball isnt made of Pure lead
3) your scale is off or been zeroed for something and is deducting some wieght

or you can go here and use the calculator
as you can see the lightest is Linotype at 118 grains
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/roundball.htm?v1=.440&v2=2641.4677

Last edited by captchee; 08/25/10.

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Deer have evolved into such large, tough beasts since I started killing them 40 some odd years ago. It's a wonder some of us lived to tell about it.


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glad you said east coast. Southwest coues whit tail are very small


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Bottom line, shot placement.

Running happens and then it doesn't... I shot one of mine center lungs with my 50 bmg... never a drop of blood, ran 200 plus yards, found with a grid search.... in a THICKET.....

I have shot quite a few with 45 TC and round balls. Move that up to a maxi ball and it kills better, but we never had an issue with the round ball not doing its job either.

I often wonder what it is about moving up in caliber one step that makes folks think it makes all the difference in the world, when it rarely does.... kind of like saying a 30-06 is much better than a 308..... much would not be my choice of words....

That being said I generally take 1-2 every year with a 32-20 and a 90 XTP bullet, not going all that fast... thats much less than my 45 anyway...


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.45 will do just fine. I use a custom Jp Beck .45 flinter. I have killed numerous whitetail with it. 2 seasons ago now I took one buck and 2 does with it within 3 weeks. all three were clean shots cutting a rib on the way in through both lungs top of heart at breaking bone on the way out with the bullet lodging under the hide of the opposite shoulder. All three round ball were recovered. All of them ran no more than 30 yards before they dropped over.

Many will give you the bigger is better story and that you should use nothing smaller than a .50 cal but I am with Rost495. Placement Placement Placement.

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Practice,Practice,Practice. As always, Shot placement is the Key!


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I've cleanly killed a half-dozen local deer (including the biggest of my life- 190lb. 11 point atypical) with a .45 Ohio-style rifle. .445 PRB and 70gr. of FFFg. None required tracking, none required a 2nd shot. Farthest distance something like 70 yds. It's performance can't be differentiated from my .50 cal. The only muzzleloader I've used that was more effective was an original .58 Springfield. Lord, what a mess that minie ball made!


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Found this out years ago with any muzzleloader loaded with 80-90 gr of 3fg an a round ball,maxi or sabot with 40-58 guns these will kill deer .The bigger calibre add a few more yards to the shot that is .$0 or 45 cal I would say is a 75 yard gun 50 out to 150 same with 54 to 58 with 98% of hunters.Remember a bad hit is a bad hit

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