Home Forums Birds & Dogs Shotguns Which SxS to buy?

I would like to itch a scratch and try a SxS. I am flexible as to price and will pay more for a high quality gun that will hold its value. This will be used for quail, chuckar, and pheasant. 12ga makes more sense to me, but a 16 might be fun just for the hell it. Thanks for your input.

Handle a lot of guns.

Just go around to shops and shows and find one that seems to fit you. Then buy it and shoot it some. Its a learning thing.

I always liked SXS's and have them. Long ago I had an old Remington side hammer double 12 and I could hit with it. While its gone I now have a couple of 20's and a 16.

There was a Bernadelli 12 ga at the East Hartford Cableas today. The clerk was too busy to show it to me. Sure enough now the topic has come up.

There is a nice old Sauer 12 at the Autumn Gunworks in Goshen, CT.

Take a look at the beretta silver hawk. beautiful gun!

Well that is a loaded question. What do you call flexiable to price? My first choice would be a Holland & Holland 20 bore Royal sidelock. With this you will not need to worry about fit as you can have it fitted to you. The Beretta Silverhawk is nice if that fits your flexiablity. If not then I would highly recommend a CSMC RBL-12, RBL-16, or RBL-20. Personally I wouldn't worry so much about fit as I would about really loving the gun. You can always make it fit later. Chances are none are going to fit you perfect anyways.

Montana Creek hunter... if you got the change... I think that an RBL is a great place to look... I think it will hold its value much better than a Beretta, especially now that they have halted production. The ones I have seen sell lately mostly are going for a little under what they would have cost new but we are talking 2-4% at most. Kept in good condition, I think they will hold their value around this area for a long time. They get great reviews over and over and over again, screw in chokes, can shoot steel, manufacturer is still around and will be happy to help service them, etc

A 12 gauge Win 21 could be had in the same price range and will do everything you could ever want with the exception that you probably should not shoot steel through it. The 21 will likely only go up in value and CSMC can service these as well as they actually finished production on the last of the Win 21s to ever hit the market.

Same could be said for some of the older guns and you can get them for substantially lower prices: Fox Sterlingworth or A grades, Parker Trojan, VH, GH; LC Smith Field, Ideal, etc etc etc. You'll need to put a little more homework into these older guns but if a gun checks out, has not been tampered with heavily, its only going up in value also.

All that said, gun collecting has been proven time and time again to be poor investing so buy what you like and fits you well.

I have two RBL's and yes they are as good as anything out there in the price range. I also have a Beretta Silverhawk and a Model 21. I think you will be hardpressed to find a Model 21 in the same ballpark as a RBL. Not saying you can't but it is going to show a hard life for sure. Most 21's I see in good shape are around the $4-5000 price range. All the American classics can be had in low grades in very good condition for $1,5-3000 range. Another good option is an Ithaca Classic NID from when Lamboy was making them. They are up there in Price not sure where, but when I bought mine a few years ago it was $5,000 for a 4E 20ga.

I have had a few SxS's over the years and for the money I think an SKB 385 is hard to beat. They may not be the best looking girl at the dance but they are built to last.
I even had a 2 barrel set (20 and 28 ga).

James Julia sold at least 4 model 21s for under $4K this past auction(inclusive of commission)... Lil Johns the same story, and the list goes on and on... I have seen many 21s in 12 gauge go under $4K in the last 6 months... and I watch the gun auctions like a hawk...

Lots of nice guns are actually down also... seen several "Great deals" on Fox CEs in 16 and 12 gauge lately as well. If guns are not 98%+ they are just not bringing the money right now...tis the time to be buying...

They just don't seem to be complete without hammers and sidelocks...

shrapnel, you should know it not safe to shoot those old Damascus guns... they'll just blow up like dynamite if you try...

that last one has some wicked wood.. I remember you posting that pic a while back...

What about the Weatherby Athena D'Italia? I'm thinkin' 12 gauge with straight stock, splinter forearm, and 28 inch barrels. Anyone have experience or knowledge about them?

I wouldn't waste my money on it, but that is just me. Honestly for the money right now the RBL can't be beat and it is made in America.

Most guys I know don't have the time to go to auctions so they have to buy from a dealer or the likes. Which means higher prices. I would say that a 80-90% Model 21 is going start from a dealer right around $4,000.00. Maybe a few here and there around $3,500.00 if you search really hard. Honestly I don't follow the auctions as I really don't have the time between shooting sporting clays, hunting, and flyfishing. Here is today's fresh catch.

How come man? I've seen them for about $2100, new. I'd appreciate more info. on it.

How much is a new RBL?

The RBL-12 when they were taking orders started at about $2500.00 I believe. Most of the guns on CSMC's website are the reserve edition and they are in the $3500.00 and up range I believe. I would think you could find a no-option RBL-12 out there for $2500-3000.

Why I wouldn't spend the money is because I personally don't think they are that nice a gun. I have not used one to be able to tell you how they stand up. If you like it and it is in your budget then go for it.

I've never used one, I've just given them a good look at Sportsmens Warehouse before the one in OKC shut down. They're made by Fausti in Italy. Higher embellished ones cost more money, but the basic like I mentioned was in the low two's. I was interested in the Gold Label until that didn't work out for Ruger.
Nice buck, BTW.

That is my first deer with a long bow. Thanks.

Well that makes it even more special...congratulations.

I believe a used, top quality SxS, by one of the four or five best Spanish makers, would be a "Best Buy" and a great way to go if you like the English styled SxS guns. Now is a good time to buy one for several reasons. Grulla, Garbi, Arrieta, Ugartechea and Arizabalaga all make some absolutely beautiful shotguns. At least look at some of those models. I think you would be pleased with a nice, Spanish sidelock, by a quality maker.

I also vote for the model 21. While they are a little pricey, I dont see them going down in value...unless of course you snap it in half.

Dont pass up on Ithacas SxS model 100/200/280 lines. All made by SKB in the 70s. I have a 12 & 20 M100 SxS and would not trade them for any other shotgun.

If you are already in the 3-4000 range look for a good used AyA or Arrieta in 12 or 16 ga. They come up relatively frequently if you look for them. Fox Hollow, Woodcock Hill, etc would be a good place to start. Also look at old Webley Scotts. They are very well made and can be had for very reasonable prices. The beauty of any of these used guns is that they all hold or increase in value over time so if you find that you do not like them, they can be swapped out with little loss of your starting principle to try something else.

As the others have said it is really important to put your hands on and if possible shoot your prospective purchase. The feel between the hands is a subtle thing and very subjective. Find what feels good and puts some rounds down the range. Best way to tell if it is the gun for you.

I can't compete with the 5k crowd, but I have a nice grade 2 bss that is reliable as the day is long and is only gonna be worth more $$. I tend to hunt with a standard bss or my favorite a 100yo belgian guild gun. it may not have the fancy name on it, but it handles like and extension of my arm and puts birds on the ground like that is its job. I resently cleaned house at a sporting clays event with it and it drew a crowd.....everyone loves an old 16!

Big Bear, to be blunt, you need to (at least to yourself, since it's really NOMDB--none of my damn business) define what you mean by "high quality," and therefore what price range you're in. "High quality/price" means little, since to a Stevens 311 or Baikal owner, an SKB 100 might well seem high quality. To an owner of a "Best Quality" English Birmingham double, it would have to be a Purdey or an H&H "Royal". And so on: $750 to $75,000.

That said, I like field grade guns that are nice enough to be proud of and cheap enough that if I fall when hunting (yeah, that happens) and ding the gun, it won't ruin the trip.

My favorites in that regard are used Bernardelli boxlocks with or without sideplates ("Roma 3" grade and up, "San Uberto 3" and up), AyA "Matador" and other field grades (but DON'T get one with a single trigger), 1950s to 1970s Beretta "Silver Hawks" (plainer and different action from present model), Antonio Zoli "Silver Hawks" (same name, very different gun--a sleeper), Browning BSS (kinda heavy--good duck and turkey), and the above-mentioned SKB or "Ithaca" doubles by Sakaba in Japan (they NEVER break--the Toyota truck of doubles).

With some serious searching, you should be able to find a nice double for under $1K among those, and put a couple of bills into any fixing up that it needs. I have or have had all of these and found them all nice looking and well-functioning SxSs. All of them but the Zolis and the Japanese guns were made in 16, but those will be harder to find since fewer were made and 16-lovers are a stingy and long-lived (I hope) lot.

Just MY preferences and pocketbook. I have more expensive doubles, but both of them came from family; I couldn't have purchased them on my own dime.

If you are interested in hammer guns like Shrapnell's beauty, you need to seriously study whether you are willing to learn to use one. If so, I'd reccommend looking around for a used Bernardelli "Italia." I have a 1930s version in 16 that I got in the Piemonte area of Italy back when importing guns was no big deal. She is the love of my life (WHAT is it about Italians, anyway; they can make a burp gun sexy! See Beretta Model 12.).

Just my opinions; everybody's got one like.....you know.

I like the old (A.H.) fox sterlingworth. A very well made sxs, but are getting harder to find in good condition: This one sports 30" tubes and has fixed mod and full choke.



This one turned 100 this year.

Please don't confuse the fox model B or stevens 311 with it though. They share the same name (Fox), but are completely different animals:

The one on the top is a Fox model b made in the 50's (I believe) and the one on the bottom is my Fox sterlingworth that handles like a dream. It's about perfect for upland game, but has also taken many turkey:

I didn't mention field grade American guns because they usually need at least some fixing, and are usually not shootable with steel, which is a major, and growing, issue in many areas.

But there isn't anything quite as nice as a nice Ansley Fox if you can find one priced someplace in our galaxy!

True. It's hard to explain until you've actually used one in the field. They're quick, light, fast handling and point like an extension of your arm. Mine was suposedly fitted to my great grandfather (don't know exactly what my grandfather meant, maybe the stock was bent and lop was adjusted??). He shot left handed as I do and the thing fits me like a glove. It's been in the family for a long time and one day, I'll pass it down to my grandkids. BSA.

Forgot to mention that there are Bernardelli SxSs that were imported by Stoegers that are called "Gamecock" and "Gamecock Deluxe." They are often good buys; basically a San Uberto boxlock with plain extractors and a Roma 3 with ejectors. Don't think any were 16s, just magnum 20s and regular 12s.

The hardest of these decent foriegn doubles to find for a reasonable price are Berettas and Brownings--dealers think they can get the sky for them because of the name recognition. Sadly, they often do....move on and keep lookin' n--none of these guns are luxury items.

Since we've broken the ceiling in discussion to include the Model 21, assuming that we're talking CSMC, I'd suggest a used Piotti over the 21, such as this one:

http://www.williamlarkinmoore.com/product_details.asp?id=2293

I would never buy a Piotti over a Model 21 CSMS or Winchester. Though I would rather have a Winchester over the CSMC.

If you're not into names that will make most of your friends envious, German side-by-sides are a very good value. A Sauer or Merkel can be found for half of what an English gun will cost with the same features, balance, etc. and they tend to be even tougher.

The Gun Library at Cabela's in Bise has this 16 ga Winchester 24 for $700:

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Winchester-Model-24-16-Gauge/1128781.uts?destination=%2Fcatalog%2Fbrowse%2Fgun-library-boise-gun-library%2Fwinchester%2F_%2FN-1103643%2B4294966925%2FNe-4294966925%3FWTz_st%3DGuidedNav%26WTz_stype%3DGNU

I got to look at that Bernadelli that's still at the East Hartford Cabelas Gun Library. Its a nice one with an excellent finish. The price is $599.

I liked the fit of it. I did not get it as I am using the Bernadelli that I just bought last year.

They said its not listed on their website.

Give them a call, ask for a picture, make an offer.

The guys in the E.Hartford Cabela's gun library are well less then desirable to say the least. Cabela's prices are very spotty and hit or miss there in E.H. Sometimes they have things totally under priced (not often) and most of the time way over priced. If you are in the CT area there are some very good shops for side by sides from the Hartford area all within 2 hours drive and a couple within 1 hour. Of course one of the largest Gun rooms around is 25 minutes down the road @ CSMC.

As I said I looked at the Bernadelli 12ga SXS today. Joe is one of the clerks there in the E. Hartford Gun Library and I know him pretty well. I have bought a rifle from them.

Joe and I looked that SXS over. He took off the beavertail forend and barrels for me. We looked the proofs and ga markings over to try to determine the chokes. It was not certain to us. Our best estimate is M&F.

The stock has good figure with only minimal wear. The boxlock receiver has sharp clear case color with light 'engraving'. The barrels in particular have a very fine blue with a solid rib. There is a slight mark that I saw near the end of a barrel. No dents were visible to me.

Since I have been buying guns around here for over 50 years and I have even worked in the plant where CSMF is I would say that I like Cabelas a lot.

Cabelas EH

Really????? Are you joking????? You and he together couldn't figure out a simple thing as to what chokes the barrels are????? I rest my case as to the quality of the employees at Cabela's EH. As to you working in the old Stanly factory so didn't a lot of others what does that have to do with anything?

As much as I don't like the attitude at Hoffmans I would rather deal with them then Cabela's though they don't really deal in side by sides. Cabela's would be my very last choice anywhere in the CT area. With Eurochasse, Robin Hollow, BSA, Safari Outfitters, CSMC, Orvis Sandanona, and a few smaller shops there are to many better choices in the area.

I should have said that I have been in the CT Shotgun Mfg plant since Stanley moved out. I handled the new RBL there when it first came out.

Since you seem to know some of the dealers in CT why don't you stop by Cabelas and look at that Bernadelli? Perhaps you can determine the chokes if indeed they are marked.

You mentioned that Hoffmans does not have doubles??

I bought a very nice Ugartechea there a couple of years ago. Its a 20 ga and has 24" barrels, double triggers and a straight grip. What a sweet gun.

A man who lived very well had a favorite saying:

"Never get so mad that you can't go back for your hat."

The Winchester Mod 23 in 20 ga if you can find one is hard to beat. I have Two LC Smith , one in 12 ga and one in 16 ga , CZ Ringneck in 16 ga, Beretta Silver Hawk in 20 ga, Muriko in 12 ga before Browning starting putting their name on them , Bernardelli Premier Gamecock in 12 ga . I screwed up and sold my Mod 23 Winchester. I love SXS'S

That is not what I said. They have them, they don't deal in a lot of that stuff (Doubles).

Yes I know the dealers in this area pretty well. I know who I can trust and who not to turn my back on. If you have been in the area for as long as you say then you should remember Mr. Banville he owned a shop on Main St. in Manchester. Mr. Jobes owned the shop on Burnside Ave in EH. I can't recall the mans name that owned the short lived Wilderness Connections on Main St. in EH. Yeah I have been around a while. As for the chokes a quick measurement will tell you exactly what they are choked. Of course you should know this and how to do it seeing you worked for Tony on the RBL line.

Who is Mad????

Ok I was up in Hartford today so I decided to stop and look at the gun you think is nice. Did you look at the screws? They look like someone used a cheisle to remove them. Did you see the piece missing out of the stock at the action? And last did you see the metal by the hinge pin that was guaged in two places? This was all noticed from the gun still being in the showcase. I can only imagine what one would find from really looking at it.

What I saw at the Cabela's EH gunroom. A lot of factory guns from the everyday makers, (these guns would all just be normal rack guns at say Hoffmans, CT Woods and Water, Newington Gun Exchange, North Cove Outfitters, and the list goes on. The best gun in there in my opinion was the Custom Mauser .280 (minus the screws being mutalated) in the front window of the gun room before you walk in on the right side of the entery way. The cases in there are fulled with average guns for the most part. The few nice doubles that were in there again were over priced.

To each his own, but I'd not take two M21s of either persuasion to one Piotti. No knock on the M21, for what it is; it's just not in the same league, and I'm not speaking of adornment.

Don't get me wrong they (Piotti) are nice, but not $20,000 nice for a BSEE. Your right they are not in the same league the Model 21 is a better gun either CSMC or Winchester then the Piotti Box Lock. It is an over priced A&D action nice engraving but that doesn't make for a better gun. The M21 is a workhorse that is tried and true over many many years in all conditions. Then again I love American classics and would prefer them to even the Englis best guns. But that is just me.

We'll agree to disagree, I guess. I like the 21, but believe it's over blown in the strength business. It's strong because of so much steel; strength not needed is a waste. I like the feel of them, but there is no comparison to the feel, fit and finish of the Piotti, BSEE or other models.

Yes, the basis of the action on the Piotti is A&D, a proven boxlock found on all manner of doubles, high and low end. The key is the integrated package, barrels, ejectors, stock, and how they are put together and balanced. This is where the Piotti shines. The Piotti feels like a cool drink of water on a hot day after handling most 21s, to me anyhow. I'd make a similar argument about a Fox in comparison to a M21...

Your are right about the feel and I am going to assume that you prefer the feel because you are a smaller guy then I am. At 6'4" 250lbs I actually like the heavier feel and balance of the M21. It slows my swing down nice. When I was speaking of durablity I wasn't just speaking of the extra metal it truly is the overall package and a very durable gun. Again for the money I could find better buys then the Piotti in an A&D action with the same feel and balance. But that still doesn't make the Piotti bad gun. I just don't see the value to quality in it over other's.

GF1 I love Fox as well. But I really like the highend Lefever's. Parker's are nice as Iticha NID's. To include New Ithica Classic NID's. I own two of those one 20ga and one 28ga. It is ashame Lamboy couldn't keep it together. Though the quality in the parts were not the best, I believe the American made ones to be a little better then the Italian ones. One thing I respect in Tony is he makes quality and is keeping some of the old classics alive and avaliable to us. I only wish I could afford an AH Fox or Parker that he is making for Rem.

Last weekend I found a old sxs at a local flea market. No name on it or markings anywhere. I will post a picture to see if you guys can help me identify it. I only paid $150 for it and it works great so even if its a pc of crap manufacturer I couldn't go wrong with the price

Pull it apart(remove barrels by removing the forend) and look at the markings on the barrel flats (flat bottoms of the barrels where they mate with reciever inside the forend), then check the "water table" (flat top of reciever that mates with the barrels). There should be plenty of markings stamped there which will help identify the maker and/or the nation where it was made, plus more details of its chambers, chokes, etc. Post what you find, or good pix of them. We should be able to help identify.

Cabela's in Kearny had a couple of Fausti's in 20 gauge on clearance for $1000. Don't know much about them but they looked very well put together and handled very nice. They also both had very good wood in them.

I've come to a time where i think taste in guns is about like that in women--while everyone will recognize a "10" there is a lot of room for variation below that in personal taste, before you get to a "she-has-a-great-personality but is a 2" that everyone also recognizes as a tool.

As JB mention there are nice German SxSs; there are also a lot of nice Spanish SxSs (ie AyA) and Italian doubles like Beretta. Ive two Bs, a 470 and a 471 Silver Hawk in a 12 and 20 respectively and a 28g in an AyA. They are on the low end of medium priced doubles but nice and very serviceable.

I keep an auto loader around just so I won't forget to appreciate them.

Oh, while I'm just a pheasant hunter I will not have a heavy gun; you certainly don't need one in the chukar country I've seen and you don't need a 12 g for pheasants. I would consider a 20 g which if on the appropriate sized frame shouldn't move the needle much past 6 lbs if that.

Give me 2-3 model 21's any day over an over priced italian shotgun. I just dont see the value in the piotti and its certainly not a "better" gun.

Here is my Bernardelli Premier Gamecock in 12 ga IC & IM single trigger , auto ejectors. I killed the three grouse on the left and my buddy killed got the two on the right and i killed all the quail. He never connected on any of the quail. This photo was taken a couple of years back just can't find any quail these days.

Many good choices mentioned, especially some of the Spanish listings.

A CSM Model 21 in their scaled down 28ga frame would be high on my list. However, if one is not against going high end, you could always consider one of these. Click on photo gallery for some additional views. I've had one in my hands. They are sweet.

http://www.krieghoff.com/ki/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=85&Itemid=106

Winchester M-21, now and forever.

If you can find a good used Winchester Mod. 23, I would recommend it. Since they are no longer made, prices seem to be creeping up on these, but they should also be a good long-term investment, like a lot of discontinued Winchesters.

I just gave mine, a Pigeon Grade XTR, to my son for Christmas.

Thanks to all for the input. What's driving me crazy is I can't seem to find any to actually hold and feel. Being in So Cal does make that difficult. I'll keep looking and please, keep posting your thoughts.
Cheers and Happy New Year!
Ed

Ed, take a look at the shotguns listed at Hill Rod and Gun in Bozeman, Montana (www.hillrodandgun.com). Charlie, the owner, has a pretty good mix of English, German and Italian guns and his prices are hard to beat. I've purchased 4 shotguns from him over the last 7 or 8 years and he has always treated me right.

Not sure exactly where they are relative to you but you might try IvoryBead ...they have a website also.