Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game How Do You NOT,Love This??!??.......

Slinger,
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<br>I savvy what you are saying.
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<br>Here is a more accurate comparison,with the same zero height,at 100yds. You'll have to grant me the 1/10th" advantage,but I tossed you a full 3/4" in the first excersize(grin).
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<br>Ok this will allow a peek at velocity retention. Again,the edge,from start to finish is with the puny 120gr. Zeroed as identical as I can compute,at 100yds(1/10" difference),you see the advantage is clearly in the 120's court,for gents that are less rangefinders(and for guys that got 'em!).
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<br>You gain 9" at 500yds and 20" at 750yds. I know someone is gonna scream energy,but you'd not like the X hitting you,even at a paltry 1862fps(though still faster than the 160,at that distance).
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<br>So what I'm saying is,the 120's virtue is widely neglected. Fact is,FEW would even give it consideration. I've shot them in 7-08's,7RemMags and STW's as well. They will kill with more authority,than a heavier/slower bullet,of conventional design.
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<br>It is a facet fully worthy of a second thought. The less I need to correct my trajectory,the more I like it. That of course,regardless of specific chambering. Again,that is a benefit of the X. You can drop a couple rungs on the "traditional" weight ladder,pick up some speed and have a new can of worms in your old wrapper.
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<br>True that many will dismiss speed,lending a convincing hand in terminal effects(excepting those who've seen it dished out,via a superb bullet). I've got and shot,a whole slew of chamberings and I've found but one constant. A light for weight X,at warp speed is more impressive than any other way you could fathom,at crunching critters.
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<br>Here endeth,the Sermon(grin)..................

OK , but----(chuckle) , the problem I see with the hyper speed loads , and using a point blank method , is your mid range trajectory height begins to get out of hand , BECAUSE of the high speed . Over the thirty years or so , I have found a mid range height of 4 inches or so to be perfectly acceptable . I know I'm splittin hairs here , but I think 5 inches or more would start to be a bit much .........
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<br>I DO buy the concept of a fast hard bullet for shootin deer , and pronghorn too . That is exactly what the ol Speer and the big seven has been givin me . No deer has stopped one yet , and I get clean Elmer Keith silver dollar sized exit holes with little meat destruction , even under 100 yards . Knock on wood , so far all any critter has done is a back flip and the dog paddle . For deer size stuff , I can say that speed DOES kill , with or without fast bullet expansion ..............
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Why did I know,you'd mention mid-range trajectory?(grin)
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<br>I'm with you,on that. I never sight anything,over 3" high at 100yds. The 257Wby takes but 2" high,to yield a 300yd zero,I very much like that.
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<br>Fast,"hard" bullets,will dazzle you across the board. They dig deep,smash bone,are easy on steaks and most always exit. Pretty hard not to favor that,as a recipe for success.
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<br>Everybody has their own notion,on the "proper" way to do things. Proper for me,is fast and flat.
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<br>The key is,to exactly understand the trajectory of the combo you are using. Few people pay it any attention and that gets them in trouble.
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<br>I'll keep working on ya',maybe I'll be able to bring ya' around?!!?(grin)...................

Well , I will admit to eyeballing several really low priced .264 s I've seen on the used racks lately . I figure a 120 to 129 6.5 bullet at 3300 to 3400 will give you both the speed and high b.c. One might make a genuine 400 yard point blank rifle , or at least come about as close as anything can ............ a 95 gr V-max at around 3700 wouldn't look too bad for a far out song dog either .......

Slinger,
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<br>This one suprised me. I'd never crunched numbers,using a 100yd zero. No you don't have any mid-range to hassle you.........(grin)
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A short throated 6.5-284,based on a 700 short,wearing a #4 contour,25" long has been tugging at me. It's EXPRESS purpose,would be to launch 95gr V-Max...............

Stick,
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<br>By nature, I have always been drawn to the fast and flat camp. Over the last couple years, or so, as I started to hunt elk I have wondered if this theory is the right way to go.
<br>Please understand that my questions are just that, questions in pursuit of some knowledge.That said, do you subscribe to the same thought when hunting larger, tougher game like elk or larger bodied bears? Can you still achieve "shoot through" performance and leave good blood trails?
<br>I have shot a bunch of deer over the years, but am just now pondering the pursuit of bigger bodied game. I have only one elk under my belt. I was leaning towards the larger diameter chamberings and am still questioning which avenue to take...
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<br>Thanks,
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<br>Bill
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West,
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<br>Placement first,projectile selection second,cartridge selection last.(my opinion all)
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<br>The 120X on Elk? Yes and with authority. Same goes Black Bears. Brownies are a whole 'nother chapter,in an entirely seperate book and fully deserving of special attention.
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<br>It is very difficult to keep an X bullet in ANYTHING. They just perform in a manner,that is associated with a bigger/heavier bullet. The new Barnes Manual,has blurbs about harvesting African Plains Game with the 45gr XLC,out of a K-Hornet. that included Zebra and exits were the norm. I've seen the tiny 85grXLC out of a 243Ackley,do things routinely,that defy description.
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<br>I sent a couple guys some XP-100 7-08 footage,employing the 120X. They are an absolute sledgehammer and convincing in a manner,you can't describe. A pard laced one through the shoulders at 280yds. You could see the bullet impact behind him,striking the ground on his offside(going THROUGH him),dumping him in it's tracks. Their performance on Game is sooooo different,you can't compare it,to "regular" bullets. I'd love to be able to give a Scientific explanation,but can't.
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<br>They got the MOJO going....................

Stick,
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<br>One handgun combo I've wanted to try is the old school 30 Herret, in a 10" contender, but with the new school 110 gr X, with an estimated launch of 2400 fps. I don't know if the exit velocity is realistic, but my way of thinking, it would give the vaunted 6.5 JDJ a run for the $, as well as be in a 10" package as opposed to a 14" tube!
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<br>I have the dies, and 500 thutty thutty cases to be modofied, just haven't sprung for a tube, but they go for a paltry $95, as nobody likes to trim brass, and it is an old and mostly forgotten round.
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<br>Hmm, just might have to try it, great thing about contenders is you can move the used barrels for what you paid, or even turn a buck or two if lucky.
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<br>Sorry for the tangent, but the light fast X bullet has been working on my noggin for awhile. The thing that most folks neglect when considering the "premium" bullets is, you can get the same penetration as a heavier conventional bullet, but add signifigant speed.
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<br>You're tempting me to try a 225 gr X in the whelen ackley, but I don't know that it would buy anything over the 250 gr a-frame launched at 2700 fps.

Lott,
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<br>Another buddy just got rid of his 30Herret,it was a 10". Had the holster,dies and a couple 100pcs of formed brass,plus bases/rings. He sold it for a measley $350! Again,to finance a rifle project(his second 243Ackley and it wasn't The Pimp).
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<br>In a TC,the 300Whisper appeals to me. Brass is easy to make and it really does more than a casual glance,would reveal. A pard had one,in an M4,what a HOOT!!!
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<br>Your 225X / 250A-frame debacle,is difficult for me to weigh-in on. You simply can't elevate velocities enough,to see a marked trajectory difference(I don't THINK,as I've never dabbled with that chambering). Both will dig plenty deep and deliver the goods. Plus you are working with significant weight to start with. The chances of pushing the A-frame fast enough,to tend to make it fail and sacrifice penetration,is damn slim at best.
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<br>In a modest round,that produces sub 3000fps muzzle speeds,the X is very nice insurance of reaching vitals and breaking bones. Over that 3000fps threshold,I'm of the mind that it is nearly mandatory,to assure predictable results. Certainly at 3500fps,you'd best be 100% convinced of the performance of the projectile you are launching.
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<br>Nice to have a single bullet,that will comfortably handle it ALL.................
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Lott - Send me some of the bullets, and I'll run them through my 30 Herret TC . But only in the interest of science of course.
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<br>Mine wears a 12 5/8" barrel ( I bought the gun second hand, and some crazy Alaskan (and I mean that in the nicest possible sense) had cut the barrel down and parkerized the whole gun)
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<br>I bet I could see over 2500 fps with 110 grainers. I base this on being able to do just about 2000 fps with 150 grainers. But with the standard TC throat, There's going to be something like .250"-.350" bullet jump.
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<br>If you are really serious about the Herret, I think you would want to find a .30 carbine barrel, and have it re-chambered to .30 Herret. The factory chamber in mine pretty much sucks for accuracy. Overly large, with yards of freebore.
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<br>There is a smith that speciaizes in TC rechambering. II can't remember his name off hand, but he participates on the Greybeard Outdoors forum. I'm tempted to have this barrel rechamberd by him to .307 Win, or something of the sort. I hate to lose the efficiency of the Herret, but I'd like a nice tight chamber that had a shorter throat.
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<br>Scott

Stick, Slinger....thanx for weighing in on this thread. I've been a 7mag shooter for years (pushing 160's+)...and recently have been playing w/ the 140grainers (after your inspiration B.S. :-) ...cause I thought you touted that weight as optimal. I even bought a 7-08 to share bullets w/ the Big7...but now you are saying that 120X is THE way to go...and is BETTER than the 140X ???? ..or is it 120's for the 7-08 and 140's for the Big7 ? RE-22 in a 20" M7 tube? I thought I had a clear cut plan...but now ...hehhehe Sparkman

I prefer the XLC coating,because it is more durable than the moly I can do myself. I WISH Barnes would make a 120XLC,then I'd be in Heaven.
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<br>The 140's are sensational,no doubt about it. They also lend comfort to guys who are of the more "traditional" mindset. A lot of guys would refute the notion of squirting the 120's at Game,cuz' they're itty-bitty(grin).
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<br>Most accurate bullet in my barrel wins,if I'm torn on a decision. There is no "better" here,it's all personal preference.
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<br>If I could snap my fingers and make a wish,it would be a Blue 120. I'd be quite content. Definately 120's,in a 20" 7-08(for me). Because you get some speed back,without sacrificing anything else.
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<br>Now that I have you thoroughly confused,I'll run and hide................

Capt-e,
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<br>You are thinking of Mike Bellm. He offers what he calls the lazy mans herret where he cuts the throat longer to use untrimmed 30-30 cases, and to clean up the factory throat.
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<br>As far as crazy Alaskans, I refer to them as colorful characters, and this land wouldn't be the same without em.
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<br>Thanks for the generous offer but I guess I'll have to cough up the $95 for a barrel and do the test myself. I got a 115 gr lee mold for my wifes 308, and it'll be a fun recoil less bullet for plinker loads in the herrett.
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<br>I don't think one would get over 2500 w/ the 110's Original articles said they were getting 2400 w/ 125's, but based on my 357 Herret results, I'd tend to think they were either overly optomistic, or really pushed the pressures. I don't want a round that'll stretch the frame, and in that vein, the 300 whisper would be a better test bed, ifn' the barrels weren't so exspensive.
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<br>Hmm, my buddy has a 9" 300 whisper, wonder if he'll let me borrow it to do some testing with 110 gr X bullets?

NOW you're talking! The 300WhisperX.....I like the sounds of that..............

Big Stick,
<br>I do love the 7mm Rem Mag. I just recieved one for christmas. It is a Savage model 110, i know its not the best looking gun but it shoots really well even with the cheap scope i have on it at the moment. Next year i will be taking it to New Brunswick on a Bear/Deer hunt. I cant wait to see what it will do.
<br>YH

Hi Stick. I'm not trying to knock the 7 Mag. But I think your figures are off a bit.
<br> Here's why. Those BC's, I believe, are suspect. Rick Jamison, while working with the 7 Ultra, found the BC's for the Barnes XCL 140's, and 160's to be as much as .080 off.
<br> Extrapolating, the 120 gr. XBT's BC comes out to about .331, not .411. The 160 gr. BT I used in the following calculations is the Sierra BT soft point. I used the figure for velocities 2800 fps. and under, .470. My computer program can't handle their velocity variation figures.
<br> So, the 120 gr. XBT @ 3500 fps., with a maximum Point Blank Range of 3 inches is -3 at 319 yds. -11 @ 400 yds., -27 @ 500 yds., and -50 @ 600 yds. Wind drift, with a 10 mph crosswind is: 319 yds. 8, 400 is 13.5, 500 is 22 and 600 is 34. BTW, this is very close to the .308 175 gr. Federal match load. Recoil, out of a 9 lb. rifle is 12 fps. , and 20.5 ft. lbs.
<br> The 160 gr. SRA BT @ 3100 is -3 at 298 yds. , -14 at 400 yds., -31 @ 500 yds. and -56 @ 600 yds. Wind drift is 6 @ 298 yds., 11 @ 400 yds., 17 @ 500, and 26 @ 600 yds. Recoil., out of a 9 lb. rifle is 12 fps. ,and 23.1 lbs.
<br> What's it all mean ? Well, using a target style long range system, your pretty close to one MOA, or click, off. On elevation, as well as windage. Recoil is favored by the light bullet load. Energy by the heavy bullet load.
<br> As always, the big difference is bullet quality. I'll bet money the 120 Barnes XBT will out penetrate the 160 gr. SRA BT. Particularly up close. No comparison. This is based on lots of experience with the 140 gr. Nosler Partitions, and SRA's 140 gr. offerings.
<br> I've got some 120 Barnes XBT's loaded for my .280. When I get the chance, I plan to visit my local tactical range and see if I can tell just how close these figures are.
<br> I suspect you and I both know that computer generated tables are fine, if fed the correct information. I can verify that the Sierra figures are accurate for their 175 gr. MatchKings at .308 velocities. I don't know about the others. E

<br>E,
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<br>I've not read Rick Jamison's article,so I wont comment on it but I don't believe Barnes is "off" on their BC's.
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<br>BC is not a static number. We could have nearly identical rifles,chambered for the same cartridge and shoot the same bullet but yet,one of our rifles might well shoot much flatter than the other.
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<br>Sometimes,a particular bullet/load combo will work much better than it should and sometimes,much worse.
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<br>This past summer I checked some loads at 300yds with my 338 Ultra. First load was 180gr BT @ nearly 3500fps sighted in 3" high at 100yds. It landed 4" low at 300yds and the groups really opened up. This was much worse actual BC than "Book" values.
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<br>Second load was 200gr BT at 3373fps sighted 2.5" high at 100yds. This load landed 1.5" high at 300yds and shot very nice groups. This was much better than "Book" values.
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<br>The only way to really know what's going on at long range is to shoot paper and see for yourself. The results often surprise you,sometimes a bunch!
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<br>Good shooting...

I friggin hate boards that require a review of post before it shows up!!!, riggin friggin things, 1/2 the time I get distracted (actually do some work) and forget to hit the second approval. Yeah, I know I can unclick the preview post box, just venting pent up rage from shooters board.
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<br>Anyhow, I talked to my buddy, and he offered the loan of the 9" whisper tube, a very, very accurate SSK barrel, that has matched 14" 30-30 book velocities. I like the .223 case head as one can run the pressures in the contender up w/o worry of stretching the frame, or seperating heads on thutty thutty brass. Only weakness of the contender, that it is a weak frame, if you use larger dia cases.
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<br>Anyhow, I'll be testing 110 gr whisper's&X and let you know how it works, hopefully by the end of the month. I doubt they carry the little X's locally, but will call around.

<br>458 Lott,
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<br>You can click on "Control Panel" and change it . Then you would have to click on preview,if you ever wanted to preview your post. Are you drinking a little tooo much coffee? (grin)