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#4710629 - 12/16/10 Re: .416's vs. 458's [Re: Polska]  
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whelennut Offline
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Polska,
If you think $1000 is a lot of money for a rifle, wait until you find out what taxidermy for the African Big Five is going to set you back!
whelennut


I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger!
There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
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#4710658 - 12/16/10 Re: .416's vs. 458's [Re: jorgeI]  
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jwp475 Offline
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Pentration depends on the bullet being used . At a Linebaugh seminar my 416 Rigby shootinging 410 rounds nose solids Federal Factory load at about 2386 FPSpenetrated 46" of wet pac. My 500 Linebaugh revolver shooting a hard cast WLFN flat ponit at 1091 FPS penetrated 50"

There are many many variable that dictate penetration



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#4711090 - 12/16/10 Re: .416's vs. 458's [Re: jwp475]  
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458 Lott Offline
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Penetration is but one factor in evaluating the performance of a round. The dia of the wound channel is also critical. A high velocity bullet is going to disrupt more tissue than a low velocity bullet, and once you get consistant exits, more penetration is not needed.

Years ago a sent some .475" 460 gr bullets to a guy who tested them at the Linebaugh seminar. He launched them out of a lowly 480 at a mere 1100 fps, and penetrated 38" of wet newsprint. I could conclude from that that a 480 is 83% as good as a 416 Rigby, and that your 500 linebaugh is 10% more powerful than a 416. But penetration isn't everything, and I don't hunt wet newsprint.


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#4711124 - 12/16/10 Re: .416's vs. 458's [Re: 458 Lott]  
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Originally Posted by 458 Lott
Penetration is but one factor in evaluating the performance of a round. The dia of the wound channel is also critical. A high velocity bullet is going to disrupt more tissue than a low velocity bullet, and once you get consistant exits, more penetration is not needed.

Years ago a sent some .475" 460 gr bullets to a guy who tested them at the Linebaugh seminar. He launched them out of a lowly 480 at a mere 1100 fps, and penetrated 38" of wet newsprint. I could conclude from that that a 480 is 83% as good as a 416 Rigby, and that your 500 linebaugh is 10% more powerful than a 416. But penetration isn't everything, and I don't hunt wet newsprint.


Penetration is not everything is correct. I was just show the fallicy of predicting penetration on velocity. The 475 Linebaugh, 500 JRH and Linebaugh will shoot through both shoulders of an QAsian Buffalo and exit on mature bull Bison. This I know because I have either done it or seen it done

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]



I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
#4711229 - 12/16/10 Re: .416's vs. 458's [Re: jwp475]  
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Arac Offline
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Originally Posted by jwp475


Pentration depends on the bullet being used . At a Linebaugh seminar my 416 Rigby shootinging 410 rounds nose solids Federal Factory load at about 2386 FPSpenetrated 46" of wet pac. My 500 Linebaugh revolver shooting a hard cast WLFN flat ponit at 1091 FPS penetrated 50"

There are many many variable that dictate penetration


That "research" has been around for some time. Take a look:

http://470mbogo.com/PenetrationComparison.html

Alpha

#4711448 - 12/16/10 Re: .416's vs. 458's [Re: Arac]  
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jwp475 Offline
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Just proving my point, penetration predictions are not always supported by the tests

The bullets being used plays a huge factor. Hard Cast bullets are not the preferred bullet for penetrating an Elephants skull for instance, too much bone. Meplat and nose shape play a huge role in penetration, etc. Many variables



I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
#4711551 - 12/16/10 Re: .416's vs. 458's [Re: jwp475]  
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Arac Offline
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Originally Posted by jwp475


Just proving my point, penetration predictions are not always supported by the tests

The bullets being used plays a huge factor. Hard Cast bullets are not the preferred bullet for penetrating an Elephants skull for instance, too much bone. Meplat and nose shape play a huge role in penetration, etc. Many variables


That's true. I wonder how long before someone tests Woodleigh's hydrostatically stabalized .45/70 bullet. I'd be curious to see how it stacks up with the heavy, wide meplat cast iron bullets. Sadly we are not allowed to use those Woodleighs on game up here, so it won't be me doing the testing!

#4711581 - 12/16/10 Re: .416's vs. 458's [Re: Arac]  
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Go to the Big Bore Forum on AR, Micheal458 has tested Woodliegh's and about everything else for that matter. The thread is titled Terminal Bullet Performance it is about 112 pages now and growing. Tons of info init

The 6.5 with the military solid like Bell used out pentrated every thing tested and #2 was the 9.3 with Woodliegh 320 grain solid.

Last edited by jwp475; 12/16/10.


I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
#4712293 - 12/16/10 Re: .416's vs. 458's [Re: jwp475]  
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Polska Offline
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my only basis for thinking the 416 will out penetrate the .458 is beause the bullet is slightly narrower than the .458


Jeszcze Polska nie zginela kiedy my zyjemy,co nam obca przemoc wziela szabla odbierzemy.

Bog, Honor, Ojczyzna
#4712398 - 12/16/10 Re: .416's vs. 458's [Re: jorgeI]  
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Awww,c'mon Jorge!! What I said was that the visible and immediate effects of the hits from the big 45's was devastating. The 375 killed nicely but our guns BOTH brought bufflers to their kneees from sheer impact. Bringing the performance levels to the big 45's of today such as the 458 Win Mag and the 458 Lott (including the 450 N.E) to compare to the 416's would likely show much heavier impacts and target effect. I would think the 416's are way more shootable than the big 45's though.


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#4713098 - 12/17/10 Re: .416's vs. 458's [Re: EvilTwin]  
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I don't know Jim. the first shot was not a good one and both of ours were placed right in the sweet spot. Had that 300gr pill hit the buff on the shoulder, the results would have been similar. Go here, on page 112 (yes 112!) complete with pictures. There is just no comparison:
PENETRATION TESTS

[Linked Image]

http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo276/michael458photos/DSC05373.jpg

http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo276/michael458photos/DSC02953.jpg

http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo276/michael458photos/DSC04585.jpg

http://i383.photobucket.com/albums/oo276/michael458photos/Bullet%20Album/DSC05854.jpg

While there is ZERO doubt the old Sharps will kill anything, they just can't compete with 1000 fps and modern solids.

jorge

Last edited by jorgeI; 12/17/10.

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#4714132 - 12/17/10 Re: .416's vs. 458's [Re: jorgeI]  
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GaryVA Offline
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Polska,

I built a very nice 416 Remington Magnum off an M70. I chopped it down and made it fairly light along the lines of Phil Shoemaker's light rifle. The barrel has a 375H&H contour and it has a lightweight stock, so it turned out very light for a 416. The balance is perfect and there is nothing sluggish in its handling. Using bread and butter Reloader 15 handloads, it works well on about anything you'd shoot with such cartridge. The rifle is well fit, and to me, the recoil is not too much over a stiff 375H&H.

I don't think I'd ever get rid of this rifle due to the work involved to get it where I wanted. But, if I felt the need to get another 416, I'd probably just grab an out of the box 416Ruger and be happy. I think I read a quote from Shoemaker where he wrote that there were probably more 416Rugers sold in the last couple years than all Rigbys sold in the last 100 years. Looking at sales figures, I tend to agree. With such a readily available rifle, you'd probably never have any issue obtaining ammo and/or reloads for many years to come. I've even read where Hornady is on a full court press to have their 375 and 416Ruger ammo readily available within Africa.

Reference needing stainless, I don't think that would give you a free ride if your rifle spends a lot of time in the bottom of a boat while exposed to salt water. No matter what you get, it'll probably end up ugly over the long haul being hosed down with spray paint and/or coated with some sort of teflon or black t, etc. I'd not let chrome moly become a deal breaker. Some of the stainless steels used can degrade pretty quick when continually exposed to salt water.

In reality though, outside professional use or maybe for someone who routinely kills the current "big 5", there is probably zero need for any of those cartridges for a hunting rifle used otherwise. For someone who is a mere short term visitor in a far away land, where the responsibilities of stopping game under an emergency situation falls squarely on the shoulders of an experienced professional guide; I'd worry more about doing your part as a hunter by placing an accurate shot with a recommended cartridge, and I'd leave the professional with the stopping rifle.

Best:)

Last edited by GaryVA; 12/17/10.

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#4714665 - 12/17/10 Re: .416's vs. 458's [Re: GaryVA]  
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jwp475 Offline
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I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
#4714730 - 12/17/10 Re: .416's vs. 458's [Re: GaryVA]  
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Polska Offline
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Originally Posted by GaryVA
Polska,

I built a very nice 416 Remington Magnum off an M70. I chopped it down and made it fairly light along the lines of Phil Shoemaker's light rifle. The barrel has a 375H&H contour and it has a lightweight stock, so it turned out very light for a 416. The balance is perfect and there is nothing sluggish in its handling. Using bread and butter Reloader 15 handloads, it works well on about anything you'd shoot with such cartridge. The rifle is well fit, and to me, the recoil is not too much over a stiff 375H&H.

I don't think I'd ever get rid of this rifle due to the work involved to get it where I wanted. But, if I felt the need to get another 416, I'd probably just grab an out of the box 416Ruger and be happy. I think I read a quote from Shoemaker where he wrote that there were probably more 416Rugers sold in the last couple years than all Rigbys sold in the last 100 years. Looking at sales figures, I tend to agree. With such a readily available rifle, you'd probably never have any issue obtaining ammo and/or reloads for many years to come. I've even read where Hornady is on a full court press to have their 375 and 416Ruger ammo readily available within Africa.

Reference needing stainless, I don't think that would give you a free ride if your rifle spends a lot of time in the bottom of a boat while exposed to salt water. No matter what you get, it'll probably end up ugly over the long haul being hosed down with spray paint and/or coated with some sort of teflon or black t, etc. I'd not let chrome moly become a deal breaker. Some of the stainless steels used can degrade pretty quick when continually exposed to salt water.

In reality though, outside professional use or maybe for someone who routinely kills the current "big 5", there is probably zero need for any of those cartridges for a hunting rifle used otherwise. For someone who is a mere short term visitor in a far away land, where the responsibilities of stopping game under an emergency situation falls squarely on the shoulders of an experienced professional guide; I'd worry more about doing your part as a hunter by placing an accurate shot with a recommended cartridge, and I'd leave the professional with the stopping rifle.

Best:)


You confirmed my thoughts, thanks bro... nice to see some other people with common sense in this world haha. Your right, i'll leave the stopping to my partners or the guide. But i'm sure a .416 ruger is plenty to stop anything on the planet... some guys says the bullet is smaller, but that made actually be better because although it doesn't leave as big a hole as a .458 or a 50 caliber rifle, it can penetrate deeper which levels it out


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#4715359 - 12/17/10 Re: .416's vs. 458's [Re: jorgeI]  
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And more on page 114:
PENETRATION TESTS

Referencing the link above:
Jorge

You are 100% correct and spot on. In reality in the field, a cast bullet really cannot do the work of most any solid. The limiting factor is construction on this as I see it. While a good cast bullet will do a good job on critters, it in no way can compare with the construction of any FMJ or Solid. I have never worried with a cast bullet on the T'Rex test, I figure little point in that, but that one thing alone I am 100% sure would prove your point.

In the normal test medium the nose profile will take effect, a round nose solid just will not do, and even a cast in many cases may out penetrate those. But, if we move to nearly any sort of flat nose with a decent meplat and radius, then it's game over for the cast. This may be where some of your guys have picked up that the cast is better, and it's really a "false/Positive" effect, and a way that a cast bullet person can justify the position. Right or wrong. But there are many factors that come into play.

There is really no comparison...jorge


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#4719326 - 12/18/10 Re: .416's vs. 458's [Re: jorgeI]  
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Jorge-1, while pictures of bullets on paper and so called written results might seem great to readers, the proof in in the tasting of the pudding.

So until I see the penetration test or said pictures of the test, this other stuff posted in purely speculation as far as penetration goes. This is why I do my own penetration tests on my rifle's and various calibers prior any hunt.


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#4719813 - 12/19/10 Re: .416's vs. 458's [Re: Tonk]  
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Suit yourself, those tests have been validated through and through by more that one individual. jorge


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#4719853 - 12/19/10 Re: .416's vs. 458's [Re: Tonk]  
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Nothing wrong with those tests. The test are also followed up with and correlated to field results



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#4720853 - 12/19/10 Re: .416's vs. 458's [Re: jwp475]  
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I wonder how many people besides Harry Selby have worn out a .416 barrel? That must take a lot of shooting!
whelennut


I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger!
There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
#4720892 - 12/19/10 Re: .416's vs. 458's [Re: whelennut]  
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He used that rifle as a professional hunter for decades. The most interesting part of that article to me was the part where Harry stated that he intended fro the 416 to simply be a stop gap measure until he could acquire another 470. After using the 416 and experiencing its performance he never felt the need to get another 470



I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
#4721533 - 12/19/10 Re: .416's vs. 458's [Re: jwp475]  
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Originally Posted by jwp475


He used that rifle as a professional hunter for decades. The most interesting part of that article to me was the part where Harry stated that he intended fro the 416 to simply be a stop gap measure until he could acquire another 470. After using the 416 and experiencing its performance he never felt the need to get another 470


Yest but he story gets more interesting when you consider he used a model 70 push feed .458 for a stop gap when the .416 was bei8ng rebarreled and like it so much he sold the .416 and kept using the .458.

It is ok to be happy where you are but that doesn't mean you are as satisfied as you can be. When you start backtracking your preferences, that is when you are on the mark. Ultimately, as a seasoned professional, Harry could use what ever he wanted and in the end, the .458 was it.

JW



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