Killer Bee; Good evening once more sir, thanks for the reply and further photos.
Since I grew up eating Saskatchewan moose, there's fewer things I enjoy eating than a nice meal of moose, even though I've personally only taken a single Okanagan bull.
Some folks call our locals Shiras and some call them Canada moose, so depending on whom you're asking or arguing with, they might be either one, I'm not a moose biologist so can't say.
On the subject of continuing to use older rifles, I'm in total agreement and my main hunting partner who is our eldest daughter is cut from that cloth as well.
Her hunting rifle was a surplus Swede I cobbled together as a lighter recoiling hunting rifle for my father in about '85 if memory serves. He gave it back to me before he died in 2003, saying he hoped that one of the grandkids would be able to use it. Sure enough when our daughters started hunting when they were each 11 and 10 respectively, the eldest spotted the full wood Stutzen stocked rifle in the back of the safe and it was hers from then on. It'll be 120 years old next year I believe.
Thanks for the kind invitation, I appreciate it. If you're ever wandering down Highway 97 through the sometimes sunny south Okanagan, drop me a PM and I'll buy you a coffee or if they're open get some of Tickleberries "World Famous Icecream" for you. It's pretty good ice cream if one like that sort of thing.
Thanks again and all the best.
Dwayne
Hey Dwayne, That is a heck of a rifle your daughter has!! I trust all is well in your neck of the woods. Hunting season is here and I'm not getting out much for big game this Fall. Fortunately, waterfowling is ramping up here and we have plenty of access. I have a new shotgun I'm reviewing for a couple articles keeping me busy. (Can't say more though) I'll be helping my sone chase down a non-trophy next week though. Take care, straight shooting and tight lines! Jeff
troutfly; Good evening Jeff, I hope the weekend was a good one for you and your fine family.
Thanks for the reply and comments, I appreciate it.
We were out this morning looking for black bear, any whitetail buck, 6 point elk or 4 point mulie all of which are open and we're packing tags.
I've been in the process of working on an '06 with a Stutzen stock for her for more years than I care to admit to Jeff, but honestly since the '06 barrel is one that used to be on my walking around rifle, which after I watched her Swede smack enough stuff was also rebarreled to a Swede.. well she doesn't really need an '06 is my poorly made point is all.
We did manage to see some new territory this morning - fresh cut blocks they'd put in - but nothing legal presented itself so we had to be contented with a nice visit and some $10 views, which meant the morning was a wonderful success.
I hope you and your son have a grand time in the upcoming hunts. Good luck on the hunts and even more so on the time together.
Despite our wettest, coolest spring that we can recall in being here 38 years, we're seeing good numbers of grouse - Blues finally again as well as Ruffers and Spruce, California Quail and doves. We're seeing lots of Collared Doves here which are invasive, slightly bigger than the Mourning Doves and have a less than soothing call.
I'm not sure about waterfowl hunting this year and likely we'll not do any since my waterfowling partner got a super tough to get any ram draw for the California's on the mountain behind the house. He moved up the valley a few hours but grew up here, so a few of us locals put in a bit of an effort with him and last weekend we helped him pack a nice heavy broomed ram down. It was a grand hunt for me in many ways because 31 years and 2 days before he killed that ram, I'd killed one within less than a kilometer from the same spot, so lots and lots of memories for me being able to get up there again.
All the best to you and your family again my friend and good hunting.
Hi Dwayne, Thanks much. The family is well, busy with life and what not but at least mostly positive things for a change. My son is quite excited, the hunt is only 45 mins from here. I have been scouting but of course with Antelope, they keep moving. There are some around though. Thanks for the good wishes. One of my other boys drew a bull elk tag, also on the Prairie. He is hauling pipe into the same zone so is working/scouting LOL. I'll help him if I get the chance. I set him up with a rancher friend who has let me hunt deer for years but has a section of land that holds good elk populations too. My current employer turned down my vacation request for 2 weeks around Thanksgiving week to hunt so I'm stuck with 4 days to hunt the Foothills with my good friend. Shortage of personnel to fill my spot. It will be interesting to see how they deal with some medical time I require for shoulder surgery. Meanwhile, I'll just target grouse but will have a bear tag and my 300 Win mag along, just in case you see. Here in SE Alberta, we have tons of geese in particular I'll be focusing on. My writing gig is expanding to working on some serious firearm projects. This particular shotgun is built for geese, perfect so far. Fun way to make some extra money. Have a great Fall, Jeff
Sounds like a fun Sunday to me Dwayne and nice to meet you Jeff and downwindtracker.
For years now I have debating with fellow firearm aficionados, which I am certainly NOT!
The debate has been about the 1917 I have posted here and maybe, just maybe I can finally put this issue to bed.
When my father gave me this rifle, I grabbed it and ran out of his house as fast as I could so he would not have time to change his mind and take it back hehehe, and I never did go into any details about what this rifle was exactly.
He told me that it was a bsa3006. I know from my research that bsa is the abbreviation for Birmingham Small Arms, which was founded in June 1861 in the Gun Quarter of Birmingham, England.
This rifle was given to him by a gentleman Lessar LeBlanc when he was dying and a hunting mentor of his when he grew up in Montreal, QUE. The pictures are of my father with Lessar on a moose hunt with this rifle back in the 60's and a picture of my father with his first moose when he was 18, in the 40's. Sorry for the bad picture quality I took the pictures with my cell phone from framed pics on my wall.
So, the Debate: I have been told by several people that my rifle is a M1917 others have said a P1917, but my father told me it was a bsa .30-06 that was so accurate when it came off of the production line, that it was issued and used as a sniper rifle in WWII.
From my research, I have come to the conclusion that it is in fact a bsa, because of the markings on it with the crowns, and to my understanding there were thousands of surplus 1917 Enfield's after WWI and thousands of them were purchased and repurposed for WWII by the British Government and that Birmingham Small Arms Co. repurposed these rifles for the war.
Below you will see the best picture I could get this morning, as well as a picture of what I wrote out of what is marked on the barrel.
If any of you gentlemen can assist me in finally putting this debate to bed, I would appreciate your assistance. Dwayne, I know that you are an expert on vintage rifles so this question may be right up your ally!
My scribbling is of the crowns on top of the BVBPNP. Thank you and have an exceptional Monday to all :o)
Opps of the marking's pics would not take, so please go to the links below:
KillerBee; Good afternoon to you sir, I hope the day is as mild and still in your area east of the big hills as it is here today and that all who matter to you are well.
Before I attempt to answer anything for you though, please know I don't consider myself an expert on anything truly and certainly not vintage rifles. For sure I've been a lifelong student of most firearms but I'd suggest I'm at the place where I can ask an intelligent question once in awhile on that particular journey.
One of the many other things I struggle with is brevity, both in person and in written responses, but I figure folks can either pick and choose or ignore it all together, the price is the same for them, you know?
Here's a true expert on vintage arms talking about how the Pattern 14 rifle came to be.
Were some of the Pattern 14 and P17/M17 rifles used for sniper service? Absolutely they were.
These guys at C&Rsenal are a bit longer video, but they are fantastically well researched.
Pattern 14 then.
And P17/M17 from C&Rsenal
From the videos then we'll see that they were made by Eddystone which was run by Remington, by Remington at their own factory and then some - but certainly not as many were made by Winchester.
While they were never intended to be a first line rifle for either Commonwealth or US troops, there are photos of them in combat all the way to the end of WWII. Some of the .30-06 P17/M17 rifles were issued to Canadians too which makes for interesting logistics I'd think?
After the war BSA ended up with a bunch of rifles and here's where it gets muddy because I'd always thought that the BSA rifles I saw in .30-06 and .270 had started out as P17/M17 rifles - but that "might not" be the case.
So the last video homework assignment is from these folks in Switzerland who are very knowledgeable as well.
If your BSA is more like one than the other then perhaps you'll get a bit closer to answering the mystery of the BSA.
The bolt face and the type of extractor will tell the tale I'd think?
If then the bolt face is a Pattern 14 type with the smaller extractor, then it was converted and/or barreled to what it is now by BSA after it came out of military service. That likely means it wasn't a sniper rifle.
Also, when we look at Forgotten Weapons videos of how the scopes were mounted on at least some of the Commonwealth sniper rifles, that'd be another telltale sign.
I'm not sure if all that answered the questions or made for more?
Hopefully it's an interesting read/listen/watch for you in any case sir.
Once there was a web given over to the Pattern of 1914, Model of 1917, P-17 ,a Remington Model 30 and the Model 720 . I have missed a few as well.
Canada gave Britain 100,000 303 Ross rifles under Canada's Lend-Lease to Britain. This left them short, so they purchased a 100,000 from the States. They chose 30-06 over 303 P-14s. In Canadian Army records it's referred to as the P-17. Those with that name can be called that in Canada correctly. But not in the States. It's commonly referred to as the Enfield in the States, but that is not it's correct name. I have one with Canadian Army cartouche.They were used in Canada.
The States gave 100,000 Model of 1917 to Britain under Lend -Lease, but not much ammo. So they were used mostly by the home guards. That is likely where the BSA ones came from. I have couple, one nice, one plain.
Thank you for all of your research, I really appreciate you and the work you have done on this weapon!
Based on the bolt it definitely isn’t a P1917 as it is shiny with a smaller extractor, and it was not manufactured in the USA.
Campfire Thread: Some possibly useful info on BSA rifles... “The Enfields except for the P-13 were made in USA, in three factories, Eddystone(ERA), Remington, and Winchester. They were designed at Enfield armory England. The round was 7mm like the .280Ross. British powder wasn't up to the task.
I am now thinking it is a P13, because of all the Crowns stamped on the barrel as well as the bolt action, also the serial# is low M3301.
KillerBee; Good afternoon once more Darren, I still hope your day on that side of the big hills is behaving.
We're well here thus far thanks. I ran up the mountain behind the house for a load of firewood this morning and saw what could be the 11th black bear we've seen since the last week of August. I say "could be" because we've seen a rather rotund fellow a few times in one spot and while this morning's was a tad lower down on the mountain, it surely wouldn't be impossible for it to be the same one. They can really move out when they want to - even fat fellows like this one was.
Someday I'll break down and shoot another one. I do carry a tag every fall and we've got a really generous season spring and fall with a 2 bear limit.
Anyways to your question, I happen to have 3 examples in the safe to look at so before answering I dug them out.
The lone .30-06 is marked on the front receiver ring "US" then under that "Model of 1917" then "Eddystone" and under that a serial number. There appear to be only US proof marks on it as far as I can ascertain. Being a martial arm there's no cartridge designation on it. Other than the stock being altered, the metal work appears to be original.
The one .303 is marked with an RE in a circle on the receiver which means it's made at the Remington factory, then a serial number. Everyone who touched that thing put a proof mark on it Darren and a lot of people touched it!!! It has enough arsenal markings on it that it'd dull the sun shining on that part of it - lets say that. There are British proofs on it for sure that I recognize. There is no cartridge designation again and on this one as well the metal work appears to be original but the stock has been really and truly altered.
The final one has had the rear sight removed, has been drilled and tapped - by me back when - and if memory serves it was an Eddystone or a Remington, not a Winchester. I had it stamped .303 Br since it's a hunting rifle loaner. Last year I picked up an altered bottom metal and magazine for it and have a stock hanging on the wall that has enough meat that I can make that big action fit into it, so that's on the "to do" list.
Oh - even though it's a .303 Br as mentioned, as close as I could measure the bore was close to .309" so I've been shooting plain vanilla 165gr Hornady .308" Spires in it and so help me it shoots them not all that bad, but admittedly I've only fooled with one surplus powder for loads and didn't step on it's tail whatsoever as far as velocity went. I want to say without looking that the 165's shot best at 2200fps so no barn burning there.
As to where your rifle was made, it's hard to say whether BSA scrubbed off the maker's mark or even if its just a RE in a circle like the one I spoke of had, it'd hide under the front scope base easily, so that's tough to say.
Sorry I can't be more help on this one. Like many military firearms out there, some of them really "got around" so to speak.
downwindtracker2; Good afternoon to you sir, I hope the day out on the coast is giving you all fine weather and you're well.
Thanks for the info on the Pattern 14 and the multi named .30-06 variant as well.
Sometime back there was a photo on the ether webs of a group of Canadian Army soldiers from Quebec who were staging for the D Day landing. The caption said these chaps were "snipers" but where they got that information is of course open to speculation.
There were two of them that had Pattern 14 or maybe the .30-06 variant P17 rifles. They were wrapped up in burlap like they did then, but the front sights and barrel are obviously not Mk III or No 4 Mk 1 rifles. If I'm not wrong there was a mix of them there too, which I thought was interesting but perhaps the No 4 Mk 1 was only issued to either new troops or if one's Mk III was damaged?
So many questions I have now that I just never thought to ask the veterans who I knew when I was a young man.
Thanks again for the info, I very much appreciate it.
You sure know your stuff, I do not know a fraction of what you know, that is for sure!
The crowns look original, I think I will post the marking on a BSA Forum and see what they have to say, but based on the video you sent me, and based on the bolt it is definitely a P14 and not a P17. There are absolutely no American stampings on it anywhere.
Not an easy mystery to solve, I have been working at it for years lol. Maybe this rifle was in one of thoes snipers hands, since it come from Quebec and my father said it was used as a sniper rifle.
By the way I moved out west specifically to hunt bears, I ended up falling in love with them and would not shoot another bear again unless it was in attack mode. Did you see Rod's grizz?
This is one I killed in Manitoba with my bow right by Riding Mountain National Park, a real brute 21 1/4". look at his toes lol.
Again, thank you for all of your efforts, truly appreciated!
KillerBee; Thanks for the reply and kind words again.
My good wife of nearly 40 years calls me a "data miner" and I'll admit that I am that.
Funny too how small the world gets - your very, very nice bear from Riding Mountain is a place I'm very familiar with as I grew up just west of there in Saskatchewan. We were north of Highway 16 sort of between Yorkton and Roblin.
We farmed there ourselves until 84 when the high interest rates and hail convinced the bank we weren't going to make it farming... so we drifted west to the Okanagan.
Once there was a web given over to the Pattern of 1914, Model of 1917, P-17 ,a Remington Model 30 and the Model 720 . I have missed a few as well.
Canada gave Britain 100,000 303 Ross rifles under Canada's Lend-Lease to Britain. This left them short, so they purchased a 100,000 from the States. They chose 30-06 over 303 P-14s. In Canadian Army records it's referred to as the P-17. Those with that name can be called that in Canada correctly. But not in the States. It's commonly referred to as the Enfield in the States, but that is not it's correct name. I have one with Canadian Army cartouche.They were used in Canada.
The States gave 100,000 Model of 1917 to Britain under Lend -Lease, but not much ammo. So they were used mostly by the home guards. That is likely where the BSA ones came from. I have couple, one nice, one plain.
Hello downwindtracker2,
Thank you very much for assisting, I am going to check out a site called Older BSA 30 06, it's the markings that are driving me Nutz haha.
What I do know for sure is that it packs a punch, it is deadly accurate and my favorite hunting rifle. I will keep you gentlemen posted on any further findings I obtain.
On my two BSA P-17s, I didn't find a factory name. Between the wars they were refurbished, something to keep the armorers busy I guess , since they had interchangeable parts , the parts were interchanged. So even if you find a part with a W, it doesn't mean it's a Winchester, it just means that part is a Winchester. They made couple of million or more of the 30-06 version. It works better than the 303 .
They are very accurate . Between the wars the competitors at Bisley (sp) used the P-14. Bisley(sp) was the British Empire Army rifle competition. General Hatcher considered theP-17 the best battle rifle of the first World War. It was the dough boys main battle rifle.
By for the nicest variant is the Remington M-720, modified to compete against the Winchester M-70. But the war stopped production, they only made about 1500.
Very Interesting, one time I dropped a nice bull moose in his tracks @ 530 yards with this rifle. Very accurate and very powerful. I shoot Winchester Super X in 180g out of it. I was told to shoot 165g because the rifle barrel was designed to shoot that grain. I love it that Super X cost me $28.00 a box. My 300 Win Mag costs me over $110.00 a box.
I have said it before and Ill say it again. I can not imaging being shot by my rifle in WWI or II. Your leg or an arm or your head would be blown completely off. Best case scenario in that predicament, is that the shooter would be an excellent shot and death would be instant and painless!
off the shelf LE 303 with a mid level scope is getting $500 bills a gun like the one in the pic i think should be somewhere triple that.
norm
There is not enough darkness in all the world to put out the light of even one small candle----Robert Alden . If it wern't entertaining, I wouldn't keep coming back.------the BigSky
Good morning all I trust you are as fit as a fiddle and ready to take on this glorious Tuesday
OK, the original picture I posted were taken 25 years. This morning I got off my Duff and took proper pictures, I took the pictures in my kitchen with lots of light with my Canon camera. Now you can see the Markings which have been driving me nuts, there markings should tell the story. There are a minimum of 5 CROWNS stamped on it. I am feeling like British Royality this morning and not the common surf that I am lol
I also joined a site called Shooters Forum that have a thread about Old BSA Rifles
So here you go Gentlemen!
Markings
Bolt with extractor and Crown stamped on the top the serial number underneath
Well guys, we are getting closer and closer to ending this mystery. Thank you so much for your videos Dwayne, made a big difference now that we know it's a P14
This is what one gentleman said:
That's a P-14 action, barreled by BSA. Was your father in the military in Germany by chance? MANY such rifles were sold to GIs and others through the PX/Officer's Clubs after WW-II
Starting to make sense since his friend was in WWII and he said it was a sniper rifle. So, the barrel as made in England!
Markings Mystery SOLVED after 25 years, here it is Gents!
The barreled action was made in USA. The variety of proofs means BSA had it run through the proof house. It was 'made for' 220 grain bullets but that's a common marking where Brit makers designated the load to be shot. I met Heidi several times but didn't know the family connection. The 'sniper story' is a very common one, but I suspect only a story. There is an odd mark on the left front rec. ring that I can't see well. Is that a crown BV? I do see what looks to be a 9 dot 50 'date'. The dot between numerals is used quite a bit for dates of proof but I've not seen it on a sporting rifle before. Where are you seeing BSA? BSA did import surplus rifles but were better known for their own actions. Coming from Canada confuses it some, but the Brit proofs means it was proofed at least once and possibly proofed again after a re-blue.
Crown over BV means the incomplete rifle was seen by the proof house and looked fine. Crown over BP means the proof house is inspecting a rifle barreled action ready for proof. Crown over BNP means it was shot with a nitro proof load and passed.
Thank you all again for helping to solve this mystery that have been plaguing me for many years!!!
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It has enough arsenal markings on it that it'd dull the sun shining on that part of it - lets say that. There are British proofs on it for sure that I recognize. There is no cartridge designation again and on this one as well the metal work appears to be original but the stock has been really and truly altered. ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/W6N5z6F.jpg)
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