Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders 50T/C Hawken, shooting 250gr Real Bullets

I am trying to get my 50 tc hawken to shoot the 250gr Lee real bullet. With a ghost ring rear aperture sight and bead front sight and off sandbags using 90gr 777 at 25yds about 1 in. group and 3-4 in. at 100 yds. Don�t sound bad right? Problem is I am getting unexplained flyers they will open the 25yd group by 3-4 in. in any direction and the 100yd group by 10 -12 in.
The bullets as cast from my lee electric melter look pretty good and mostly weigh within 4-5 grains of each other, can small flaws in the bullets cause the flyers? I�m also wondering about the lead being pure. I was always told if you can scratch the lead with thumbnail its ok. Is their a more scientific way, short of having a Rockwell tester to check the quality of your lead supply?
Thanks in advance for your help. If it ever stops snowing around here will get out and shoot some more maybe try backing of the load a bit. I did manage to kill a doe this year with the load it did a fine job and no flyer on that shot.

All that really counts, from a hunting standpoint, is the first shot. Is it consistant? 2nd and 3rd should be looked at as well (with no swabbing) just to see what you can expect. Sounds like it is shooting very well. Are you wiping the bore down between shots at the range? I use windex, which works pretty good.

Thanks for the quick reply bender, seems to be randem flyers just as likely to be the first shot. I don't wipe the bore till 10 or so shots. When loading to go hunting I never load without shooting once or twice, not wanting to chance shoving crud into the breech-nipple channel area, I have experianced hang fires after swabing ( eaven just dry swabing ). With the 777 one can go all season without shooting the load out and cleaning, exception being getting rained or snowed on while hunting in which case I shoot the load out and clean. Eaven then if I can I fire 1 shot before reloading for the next days hunt.

Why don't you try a 80 gr load this stuff burns hotter. Your not shooting a mag or nothing just a muzzleloader from 0- 125 or maybe 150 yards 80 gr will get the job done

That is a lot of shooting without swabbing! I would expect just what you are experiencing. Do you pop a cap before loading again? That would clear the breech . At the range, I pop a cap, load, shoot, swab with windex, run a dry patch down, pop another cap, and load again. That way, I have a pretty consistant result. Dropping the charge is a good idea too. Might be better with less, might be better with MORE,(my fav. load with my .50 Hawken is 240gr. XTP over 100gr. 777) Might just be that the bullet does not work well in that rifle. In any case, I don't think the rifle is being kept clean enough to depend on consistancy.

You might want to try a Wonder Wad between the bullet and powder. It sometimes helps with consistency. Why are you set on the Lee REAL bullet? In my 54's I do better with the heavier Maxi Balls. Mike

Mike I figuered the short 250 real might stabelize better with the 1:48 twist then the longer maxiball, definatly less recoil and higher veloicty with less drop. I do have an old maxi mold I may clean it up and try some of them.

If you're using a 'bottom pour' electric pot....THAT AIN'T WORTH A HOOT 'N HELL for delivering good bullets! If you want to pour decent bullets aka round balls, conicals, etc. use a ladle! Bottom pour pots have a tendency to deliver 'voids' in the process of pouring so coming from one that has cast literally thousands upon thousands of bullets ranging from weights of 500 to 720 grs. and being able to hold +/-5/10 gr. your 4-5 grain variation is way too much!! That rifle is probably going to shoot round balls better than anything else!! Also...before you start casting PRE-HEAT the mould! I put my moulds into the direct flame of a stove top I have in my reloading room for 2-3 minutes prior to casting. You'll know when it's hot enough to pour by picking the mould up and moving to within about 3" of your cheek and when you can feel the heat radiate to your cheek...the mould is ready to pour! Cast your bullets at no less than 750F!! Heavier bullets take at least 800F for good fill out!!

Nothing wrong with swabbing after putting in the next powder charge.

I don't think 4-5 gr weight variation is giving you the flyers.I bet it is the bullet type. I have a TC Hawkin and it is fussy about what bullet I use,and definitely likes the maxiball, but I do get consistent accuracy shooting a 180 gr round ball.
While hunting,if I clean my barrel, I swab out with methanol after I clean. That gets rid of any moisture.I let it dry, fire two caps and reload. I do lot fire a cahrge.

Just firing the caps will clean the nipple out

I think your load may be too hot, as was suggested by others. I've used the 320-grain R.E.A.L. over a 100-grain equivalent of Pyrodex in my Fox Ridge Outfitters Rifle (T/C Renegade derivative) for many years with nary a hitch. Prior to that I shot the 250-grain R.E.A.L. over an 80-grain equivalent charge. I never chrono'd the 250-grainers, but Lee always claimed they (the R.E.A.L. bullets in general) were capable of higher velocity than other types of conicals of similar weights with the same powder charges. I've chronographed quite a few of the 320-grain R.E.A.L.s with the 100-grain equivalent charge and was getting around 1700 FPS on a regular basis (this was with RS Select). T/C claims a velocity of about 1500 FPS with a 320-grain Maxi Ball. (Their max load is 110 grains for a 320-grain slug.)

All that said, Hodgdon recommends you drop your charge by 15% when using 777. 70 to 75 grains would be all I'd use of 777 with that bullet.

Just bought the REAL 295 gr for my .45. Have not tried it yet. Like the philosophy of it.

My percussion T.C. .50 Hawken loves the 350 grain Maxihunters over 90-100 grains of FF. They shoot flat enough to hit with sights on hair out to 120 yards with the same aperature and front post you speak of. The bullets group well for me with the 1:48 twist.

My point is, as to your post, you are not limited to 250 grains with the 1:48 twist. Look heavier and see if they stabilize any better.

+1 on the 777 in lower dosages. You might be using too much of a good thing?

IMO not enough gained out of the 777, over FFF, or FF to make up the cost in the Hawken. Inlines yes, sidelocks? am I alone in that? Assuming that you can clean it well afterwards, ofcourse.

i agree with less powder and/or a heavier bullet. have you tried maxi-hunters? proven killers, and accurate in a host of muzzleloaders. good luck

Hello,

Triple Se7en does not work well in sidelocks. Was never intended to.

I'll bet a bunch that you're getting a lot of variation.

You're also shooting a bit much powder for those types of conicals. I would hazard a guess that you're stripping lead on the rifling now and again.

As an example of the load you should be using, the old .58 rifled muskets firing minie-balls only used a 60gn charge of 2Fg to keep from blowing the skirt (not a problem with the R.E.A.L. bullets) and to keep them from stripping the rifling.

The R.E.A.L. bullets use a slightly different mechanism; no skirt to blow so you can go with slightly higher pressure.

However, you still want to back off of what you're using.

Start with a load of 50gns (by volume, always) 2Fg black powder or Pyrodex RS. (I know you want to use Triple Se7en, and we'll get to that.)

See what kind of accuracy you get with a three shot group.

Bump it up by 5gns, and fire another three-shot group.

You will probably find the best accuracy around 70gns, then it will start to fall off.

T/C lists max for that rifle (if I remember correctly, CHECK FOR YOURSELF) as 110gns 2Fg. I personally consider 90gns to be max as defined by the old guidelines: Start at the bore size (50gns for .50 caliber) and end at half the round ball weight (180gns for the ball, 90gns for the charge).

Optimum accuracy is usually found right in between those two at 60 or 70gns.

After you have it shooting at its optimum accuracy, reduce the charge by about 15% and see how it does with Triple Se7en. I would recommend switching to a musket cap, though, for more consistent ignition.

Just an FYI:

Blackpowder = charcoal + sulfur + saltpeter

Pyrodex = charcoal + sulfur + saltpeter + potassium perchlorate

Triple Se7en = charcoal + saltpeter + potassium perchlorate

Triple Se7en has no real advantage over black or Pyrodex when loading or storing. It's just as hygroscopic. The best way to keep it loaded is to use an over-the-powder wad. I just use a cotton ball, but the traditional thing to use is paper wasp or hornet nest. It just creates a barrier to keep lube out of the powder.

Put a piece of leather or rubber on the nipple and lower the hammer onto that. The load column is then at least as airtight as a modern cartridge.

Forgive the length of this post; just wanted to make sure the bases were covered. I ain't a master of this black art yet, but I shore been studyin' with 'em!

Josh

Zero problems with 777 in my sidelocks (mostly Investarms). Pyrodex was not as good at lighting as the 777. Real black powder is really hard to get around where I live.

270,
I've never used 777 as I only use black. Your thumb nails defects....why not just remelt these and use good bullets. Defective bases on bullets can effect accuracy.

I've had plenty of problems with my 320gr REALs in inlines and my old T/C Grey Hawk .50. Same problem as you. A good shot or 3, and then BAM- it throws them all over. The propellants are clean enough that you can shoot all day w/o swabbing, but it doesn't matter because a few shots into the session,and you can't hit the broad side of a barn.
The best I could figure was that they were stripping the rifling. There's no skirt to blow on these maxi balls. This often happened with 80-100gr Pyrodex charges. It also happens in my T/C inline with similar charges.Happens with 360gr Lee minies as well. They seem to engrave the rifling well when I pull unfired bullets, so it's not sizing/diameter, and it's not weight since they're usually quite uniform. So it's not a casting problem.
I think it's just that these newer .50s are built with shallow rifling for copper bullets and sabots, and they won't grip lead properly. I may try patching them or adding a grease wad.

Ok, finally got to shoot with new bullets still no good. Tried several different things dropped the charge to 65gr 777 still getting flyers. Over powder patch flyers. PRB flyers, PRB with over powder patch flyers, PRB 70gr ff black powder flyers. 240gr PA conicals poor group with flyers. Tried swabing every shot or 2 no help. Quite often would get 2 touching then maybe 3rd would be 4� out of the group. By the way 30yds off sand bags. Ran out of daylight or I might have tried a heavier charge. My son was with me shooting his TC Hawken flinter with PRB and shooting good groups time permitting will try the 250 Reals and the PA conicals in his gun. One thing I noticed was when shooting PRB in my gun patches were badly shredded without the overpowder patch, with it they were holding together but had small holes in them. My last 3 shot group of the day PRB 60gr 777 with overpowder patch , first 2 shots were in the center of the 2� bullseye overlapping !!! 3rd shot 4� out of group. I some how resisted urge to wrap gun around tree. Its possible the overpowder patch failed to protect the 3rd shot its also possible with me racing daylight that I forgot to use overpowder patch on that shot. At any rate the PRB patch should hold up better then it did even without the extra patch. I�m thinking get out the grinding compound and try smoothing the rifling out a bit. The 490PRB with .015 patch loaded easy but I don�t think to easy in other words fairly tight. Now I need another good day to shoot according to the weather forecast I�ll be waiting a while @!$$%*&.

Sounds to me like you are cutting or burning thru patches, whats the bore look like? Nothing wrong with the diameter of the ball and patch combo in my opinion, I don't care for the really tight ones you gotta pound down the barrel, but I would check that bore, sounds like it could be tearing the patch. I've got no experience with 777, only thing I use is the real stuff, so can't help ya there.

I have read through this twice and did not see anyone mention lube what is everyone using for lube? I hope that it isn't bore butter, chapstick would make a better lube. Good old fashioned Emmerts (home made) works great as does DGL my favorite, any good BPCR lube would I'm sure help a bunch. And one other thought paperpatch bullets love shallow rifling.