Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only Dangerous game handloads for Marlin .45-70?

"Gulo,
Keep in mind that if you get a 425 or 525 grain hard cast bullet moving even at a modest speed you will have way more gun than what most people (myself included) carry on their hip in bear country" Donner

Yeah, that's what i'm gathering. There's that whole thing about more velocity leading to less penetration. Big, hard bullets and medium loads may well be the way to go, then.

RE: Ruger #1 - i'd love to have one, in a varmint calibre. They are beautiful guns, one of the few unmistakable designs - their aesthetic reminds me of the 99 Savage somehow. For dangerous stuff, i think i'll stick to my repeater. Not sure it would be a good idea to go after dangerous game with a single-shot, unless you've got backup you can trust - I suppose most do.

Anyway, lots of great info in here to get me started - I appreciate all the perspectives, thanks!

I've shot put 2 boxyes of buffalo bore through my marlin 1895 that i customized. I went thru a box of the 300 grain and a box of the 400 grain, I think the 300 grain kicked the worst. I just started a box of the 430 grainers. I haven't had a chance to test penetration. The 430 grain from BB would work on medium dangerous game like big black bears, or moose. for big bears or african type game i'd probably want the 500 grain full metal jacket.

The 336 "concept" Marlin is primarily designed for deer hunting. The evolutionary expansion into .458 caliber rounds has not included upgrades in stock design or recoil pads which means that the Marlin 1895's and variants, recoil to uncomfortable levels when you use heavy loads.

I have a very soft spot for Marlin .45/70's. I have tested and reviewed up to 3 at a time and probably more than a dozen since the early 70's when re-released. They were consistently very good rifles with accuracy that was routinely around .5 MOA at 50 yards with factory open sights.

But....Once you step into the world of dangerous game rifles, there are options for little more money that are more specialized both for the game and the mitigation of recoil, which translates into controlability.

I have loaded and shot animals with 500gn Hornady Roundnose bullets in the .45/70. The won't feed or extract as loaded rounds, being too long for the action, but they slip into the chamber easily because of the long throat and shoot quite accurately for cull work inside 150 yards.

It may be ok to build loads for fun, but a dangerous game hunt means the animal has an opportunity and liklihood (albiet no matter how small) of hurting you.

I recommend you choose wisely and for the right reasons.

John

AussieGunWriter,
Beartooth bullets have a 525gr bullet designed especially for the Marlin 45-70. It will feed and extract as it is intended.
You are very much spot on about the Marlin Guide gun not being anything like a dangerous game gun. While not a stunt to hunt brown bear with one, it's almost unheard of for an actual guide to carry one. Simply put, to many parts in the old design, to many things could go wrong. They can lock up! A DG gun is a bolt gun in .375 and up.

A couple of the newer models (1895GBL, and 1895SBL) come standard with laminate pistol-grip stocks, and Decelerator pads.

I have one of the GBL's, it's a whole lot more comfy under recoil than an older 1970's 1895 I had, that came with a straight grip, and a hard plastic buttplate.

Actually something I know about!

In most load manuals they have three versions of 45/70 loads.

Loads for:
Old / weak actions
Strong Lever actions Marlin�)
Bolt actions

That said if you have a Marlin Lever action chambered in 45/70 you can use those loads, which are very close to 450 Marlin loads.

I have a 450 Marlin (and love it) and I do hand load for it� but I would not want it to be my Primary (or backup) gun for Elephant, Cape buffalo or Hippo.

Just sayen

T

NOT!

It's a good bullet, but it's still only a common cup and core.



They turn inside out just like the Speer Hot-Cor and plain old Remington SP do.

For DG with a Marlin 45-70 I prefer either moderately hard cast bullets or good quality soft jacketeds, with Woodleighs in the 405 weight being fine. And for DG in any caliber, I prefer not to run my ammo hot or even very close to it. 1800 is plenty with 405s. That can be reached well inside of safe pressures and makes reliable ammo that isn't brutally difficult to control in a light rifle.

Forget which publication this was from, but it looks like this specific 45-70 bullet provided plenty of penetration;

That was Wolfe's Rifle magazine, issue #212 to be exact, at least that's what you pic says.

The lever action rifles might not be widely used by guides, but some long time big bear guides, such as Ed Stevenson, used them frequently;

http://www.z-hat.com/Stevenson.htm

Thanks for the info.

There's some helpful info on this thread, but also a LOT of nonsense!!!

The 450 Marlin will NOT keep with the 45/70 in the same rifle simply due to the fact that the case holds slightly less powder!

Compare in Barnes #4.

A number of other manuals send conflicting messages.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

First off, the 1886 Browning Repo and 1895 Marlin Guide Gun don't have much in common, save the chambering. Pretty much anyone who's handled both can figure that out. I'd also say that an example of one don't say much, or maybe it says a lot. I donno. A hopped up 45-70 inside 25 yards is golden, but putting down a poorly hit bear from 100 yards out is another matter. As a hired guide this might come into play. Again not the best choice. My own Guide gun is running 425 grain cast bullets at north of 1900 fps with 53 grains of H322 and I have no problem hunting brownies with it but I won't call it a dangerous game rifle or put someone at risk because I wanted to carry a short handy rifle. I'd rather have an oldfashion bolt type gun.

Hi Donner;

Your cast bullet load for your GG looks somewhat familiar.

I don't have a Guide Gun anymore having gone back to the Classic with the 22" tube. And I've owned most of the hot magnums all the way to the .458 Win Mag, and still own a .458 WM and a .300 Win Mag.

My current favorite load in the Marlin is a 465gr semi-hardcast at 1930 fps.

That load, or one very similar, flattened a trophy-class black bear at 70 yards a few years back. It has a very good ballistic rating from my Marlin at .465 BC. So, I thought a comparison with a .375 H&H shooting a 300gr Nos. Part.(.398 BC) at 2600 fps might be revealing:

300 H&H @ 200 yds:

vel.=2182/3170 ft-lbs
momentum = 93.5 lb ft/sec
TKO = 35


Marlin .45-70 @ 200 yds:

vel.=1630/2743 ft-lbs
momentum = 108.28 lb ft/sec
TKO = 49.6

It certainly would seem that while the old H&H is no slouch for Brown bear at 200 yds, and shoots flatter than the Marlin load, yet the older .45-70 in a Marlin wins the contest by a significant degree in momentum, TKO and frontal area of the bullet (by 50%), plus having the edge in sectional density.

There's also the fact that the Marlin can be (as you know) reloaded with one in the chamber, ready to fire in approaching a downed game animal. With one in the chamber and four in the mag, for my money I'd choose the Marlin over the H&H as a guide OR hunter of certain soft-skinned DG since shots would be far less than 200 yards.

That's my take from here...

Regards,

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Up close the ol 45-70 hits like Thors hammer, no doubt. It's the rifle itself that I'm not quite sold on for a day in day out harsh conditions guide rifle. I'll have no problem hunting with it but I also see it for what it is.

For the non-45/70 shooter, there is so much truth in that, that it would be easy to under-estimate what is being said.

I owned a Marlin 45/70 at the same time as a CZ550 that I'd rechambered to 458Lott. A hard-cast 420gr at 1785fps was a brute compared to the 458Lott with a 480gr Woodleigh at 2150fps. A 458WinMag with 480gr Woodleigh at 2060 fps was positively gentle compared to the 45/70 loaded up. The Marlin bucked hard and carried on compared to the 458Lott which was much more controllable. Weight and stock design are the reasons why.

As for projectiles ... I'd choose the best of the new technology offerings ... and launch the Woodleigh 325gr Hydro at a sedate 2000-2100fps or take it to 2300fps if you like. It WILL penetrate, it will leave a wound channel more reminiscent of a 'hard soft' and it will be manageable in the 45/70. Not in the 45/70, but in another (I think a 375H&H with 300gr Hydro) it has accounted for 3 water buffalo to the one shot. It's a very surprising projectile.

Just my opinion.
Cheers...
Con

That sounds a bit strained there Con.

A 420 gr bullet at 1785 fs has about 35 ftlbs of shoulder whack in an 8 lb Marlin, the 480 gr at 2150 has twice that in a 10 lb rifle and the 480gr at 2060 has over 50 ftlbs.

While everyone has their own level of recoil "resistance", I guarantee all my 375 to 50 cal shooters stomp me very good even with muzzle brakes, when I'm shooting 450-600 gr bullets at 2000-2400 fs and that's in 9-14 lb rifles.

The muzzle brake and heavier rifles do mitigate the recoil somewhat, but I DON'T think ANY heavy bullet at those velocities could be considered "gentle by comparison". NONE of my 450-550 gr 45-70 loads come anywhere near the same recoil level as the same bullet loaded up 300-600 fs faster in my 458 WM or 45-120 even though the rifles weight 1-6 lbs difference.

I do agree that the "lighter" 45-70 load in a 8-9 lb rifle has twice the stomp most people are comfortable with. I run my 458 American at ~1950fs with a 430 gr hard cast lead bullet...a bit faster with 300 gr jacketed. I don't think it's all that bad to shoot in my 9.6 lb rifle but I can't get many to try it after I shoot it first and they see the recoil...even WITH the MB on.

As far as the difference between the 450 Marlin and the 45-70, there's only about 2 grains of H20 difference in case capacities, so for all intents and purposes you can load them to identical velocities and pressures...if you know how. My 458 American has the same case volume as the 450 Marlin or the 45-70 when trimmed to the same lengths...I HAVE WEIGHED SEVERAL CASES and compared them just to see, when all the BS started about which one was "better" and the 450 Marlin was "no good".

It's all subjective anyway, people have to "prove" this one is better than that one, and anyone who has done this "shooting thing" for any length of time usually has very definite ideas of what they like...so what does it matter? There is so much BS piling up around the forums even a rocket can't keep us above it and we are ALL buried by it.

Use what you like and blow the rest off...it is YOUR hunt, why let someone else decide how to run it.

Luck

I agree there is not a big difference between the 450M and 45/70.

The Manuals I have shows a slight edge to the 450M In A Marlin Lever Gun.


All that said, I still don't think either is an elephant gun...

Manuals never give all the goodies. There is a whole lot of things to consider when deciding what IS and what ISN'T the gun to use for a particular game animal, dangerous or not.

A hard cast 500 plus grain bullet will penetrate end to end in an american Bison, a Brahma bull or Angus, asian or african buffalo at 1500 fs, and have many times over. I have loads I test on big rounds of Lodgepole pine, 3 ft in diameter and some of them go through the first log and into a second one.

I wouldn't go out dangrous game hunting with a levergun by ANY stretch of the imagination, I've had several over the last 50 odd years and the have ALL jammed at one time or another. Roll one over on it's right side while racking a round and it's liable to fall out on the ground. Or short stroke it and have a REAL mess on you hands I think it's totally stupid to even think a levergun is a DGR, but everyone makes choices...some good ones, some bad ones.

It's up to ME to decide WHAT rifle I will use for WHAT game I go after and it's MY responsibility for my own bacon...and so it is with others. Make the wrong choice at the wrong time and YOU pay the consequences...the rest of the "stuff" is just that...STUFF. It has less to do with the cartridge and more to do with the rifle and it's mechanical limitations or the nut holding it.

Hey, it's YOUR skin and YOUR toy and you gotta be real about it. Kinda like bringing a knife to a gunfight...unless you are VERY good with a blade and very close, guess who wins...samo-samo with a levergun.

For all you hairy legged he-sheep, if you want a lesson in why the Marlin has pressure limitations, just take one apart, take off the barrel and look at the threads and look at all the pieces and parts, the bolt, the way it locks up, how the lever works etc...real hard. It works well at the design pressures for it's designed game...but for the stuff with teeth or very big feet and a trunk I want a bolt gun and all the stomp I can get...and something that will work when I'm upside down and backassward.

Luck

NFG,
you said very well, what I've been hinting at!