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gulo Offline OP
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I am wondering if anyone here can give me some advice on hot handloads (powder & bullets) for a .45-70 Marlin levergun. It's a late model a couple of years old, so unless i'm mistaken, it should handle the same hot loads that the .450 Marlin can handle (correct me if i'm wrong.) I'm thinkng along the lines of the loads that Buffalo Bore, for instance, offers for really big and dangerous game.


Last edited by gulo; 01/20/11.

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Hot handloads will damage your gun.

There is no such thing as a .455 Marlin.

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No but there is a .450 Marlin (my mistype) which is a hotter version of the .45-70, the latter of which is loaded lighter in the ammo factories to protect old guns.

So, to reiterate the question, what i'm getting at is can i handload for my .45-70 which is not an old gun the same intensity cartridges as for the .450 Marlin.

Also, is it true then that everyone who is shooting custom ammo like Buffalo Bore through their .45-70's is damaging their gun?

Thanks!

Last edited by gulo; 01/20/11.

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You can do anything in the 45/70 that you can do in the 450 marlin but its best with starline brass as starline brass is much thicker and stronger than some of the other brass manufactures. I used to shoot quite a few 405gr JSP loads with H322 @ 1925fps. For hunting I used kodiak bonded and practice I used remington bulk bullets. They shot the the same point of impact.

The garret, and buffalo bore type ammo is all loaded to within the specs of the 1895.

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gulo - ref: .45/70. Check out the marlinowners.com site. They have a .45/70 forum that has more than enough info on this subject to keep you busy. Homesteader.

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I shoot 400 grain Speers over 55 grains of Varget in Starline cases and a CCI 200 primer in my Marlin. Accurate, packs a wallop at both ends. I am going to go to a milder load when I have time to work at it a little.


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Two bullets, to look at might be the Belt Mtn. Punch Bullet, and the Barnes Buster. Barnes has load data, on their website. How big a critters are you wanting to hunt?


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Originally Posted by cra1948
I shoot 400 grain Speers over 55 grains of Varget in Starline cases and a CCI 200 primer in my Marlin. Accurate, packs a wallop at both ends. I am going to go to a milder load when I have time to work at it a little.


I shot hundreds of animals with that bullet and it is paper thin in the jacket and too light for any dangerous game. I would also recommend loading it back to about 1600fps to maintain integrity. At 1900fps it opens too much and loses penetration, at 2400fps it often dissapears in a puff of blue smoke and never reaches the target.

JW


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I would try Alaskan Bullet Works Kodiak Bonded Core .458" 405 grain bullets over a charge of 55 grains of H322 in Winchester brass with CCI200 primers (appropriately worked up to of course).

Starline brass is unnecessary as Winchester brass has been tested to 70,000 PSI without failure. Hence, its the firearm that is the limiting factor, not the brass.


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gulo,
Do you have a dangerous game hunt in the works? What do you plan to hunt? Or if you're just doing it for the boom factor, that's fine too. Marlin 1895's are very strong. I have a friend that has fed his 45/70 Guide Gun a steady diet of Buffalo Bore and Garrett heavy hitters for years with no impact on the rifle. I like a bit less recoil, so I load lighter.


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Thanks for the replies, everyone. Lots to follow up here.

I'm actually registered on that Marlin forum way back - forgot all about it - thanks for the reminder!

I have a yearning to hunt Cape Buffalo, but that may or may not ever happen. Right now I hunt mostly with two M99 Savages (deer.) The .45-70 is mostly for backup (i'm in grizzly country, there has been at least one hunter death near my farm from a grizzly charge.) I figure if you're looking to stop a charge, might as well pack the biggest wallop you can. I also figure if you're gonna pack a big bore, when you have the other smaller bores covered, there's no sense packing it with a deer load.

So maybe i'm thinking overkill, but there's the reasoning. I'd like to have the info at any rate, now that i'm getting into the reloading game.

Thanks again, folks - appreciate the responses!


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ALL stiff loads with good 400s in a Marlin .45-70 are dangerous for ANY big game in North America. And, it's worked on Cape buff as well, though I'd be inclined to use my Ruger No.1 in .45-70 IMP shooting 350 TSXs or 450 A-Frames at **** MV. wink

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I shot 350 gr Hornady rn bullets with a very heavy load of RL7 in a Marlin back in the early 1990's with very good results up to big bears. Russ

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I've been working up a brown bear load for my marlin. After doing a little research and talking to Marshall Stanton at. www.beartoothbullets.com He's been fooling around with heavy hardcast bullets for prolly 20 years and is more than glad to help a guy out. (call and talk to him for the straight scoop!) phone number is on the web site.
I'm using 425 grain piledriver jrs. Starline brass is really good stuff but Marshall said my remington brass is fine. He also gave me several specific loads to try.
425 grain piledrivers jrs (sized .460 this is important!)
Winchester large rifle primers
(if buying new) get starline brass but don't sweat it
H322 is the powder
I loaded up some from 48 to 53 grains
At less than 50 grains you are not even creating enough pressure to seal the chamber 100%(a little black around the case mouth) at 51 to 53 grains you better have your chin strap on! I have to borrow a buddies chrono so I have no data on fps but I can tell that I'm most likely going to settle on about 51 or 52 grains of H322.That should get me a through and through on a brownie. Also keep in mind that while your rifle might and prolly will shoot jacketed bullets very well, you may have to firelap the bbl to shoot clover leaf 100 yard groups with hardcast bullets in your marlin. The bbls have constrictions were the dove tails are cut for the rear sight and also were the mag tub is attached. Get with beartooth bullets and have fun!

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I ran 525 piledrivers outta my marlin @1755fps w/ rl-7 a good stout but safe load.
If You wanna hot-rod a 45-70 get a Ruger #1, a coupls boxes of beartooth 525 piledrivers, starline brass, cci-250 primers, and some rl-7 and have at it.
When that gets boring have Your smith ream it to 45-90, 45-100, or 45-120.
The 45-120 Sharps will cure all wonderment about hot-roddin the old straight walled 45 cal. cases.

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gulo:

The 1895 Marlin in 45-70 and 1895 in 450 Marlin are NOT the same. While the outer appearance is the same, the metallurgy in 450M is not and the 450M barrel to receiver threads are "v" cut instead of the 45-70's "u" cut. That is also why there are different SAAMI specs. The 45-70 in the Marlin 32K psi and the 450M is 43K psi

Do as you wish.


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Originally Posted by AussieGunWriter
Originally Posted by cra1948
I shoot 400 grain Speers over 55 grains of Varget in Starline cases and a CCI 200 primer in my Marlin. Accurate, packs a wallop at both ends. I am going to go to a milder load when I have time to work at it a little.


I shot hundreds of animals with that bullet and it is paper thin in the jacket and too light for any dangerous game. I would also recommend loading it back to about 1600fps to maintain integrity. At 1900fps it opens too much and loses penetration, at 2400fps it often dissapears in a puff of blue smoke and never reaches the target.

JW

The older version of that bullet was soft and would often lose the jacket on deer, but the core would always shoot through. The newer ones seem to be considerably tougher and I think Speer has indicated that they are (although I'm not sure about that.)


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The 350 Hornaday is a Hot Core bonded bullet and is pretty tough. Should do for North American DG if you do your part.


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Gulo,
Keep in mind that if you get a 425 or 525 grain hard cast bullet moving even at a modest speed you will have way more gun than what most people (myself included) carry on their hip in bear country.

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My 7.5" BFR in 45-70 throws 525 grain Cast at 1300 fps and Garretts 420 +P ammo right at 1600 fps in 39 degree temps.Of course that load was pressure checked in another Rifle at a very acceptable pressure..


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"Gulo,
Keep in mind that if you get a 425 or 525 grain hard cast bullet moving even at a modest speed you will have way more gun than what most people (myself included) carry on their hip in bear country" Donner

Yeah, that's what i'm gathering. There's that whole thing about more velocity leading to less penetration. Big, hard bullets and medium loads may well be the way to go, then.

RE: Ruger #1 - i'd love to have one, in a varmint calibre. They are beautiful guns, one of the few unmistakable designs - their aesthetic reminds me of the 99 Savage somehow. For dangerous stuff, i think i'll stick to my repeater. Not sure it would be a good idea to go after dangerous game with a single-shot, unless you've got backup you can trust - I suppose most do.

Anyway, lots of great info in here to get me started - I appreciate all the perspectives, thanks!

Last edited by gulo; 01/24/11.

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I've shot put 2 boxyes of buffalo bore through my marlin 1895 that i customized. I went thru a box of the 300 grain and a box of the 400 grain, I think the 300 grain kicked the worst. I just started a box of the 430 grainers. I haven't had a chance to test penetration. The 430 grain from BB would work on medium dangerous game like big black bears, or moose. for big bears or african type game i'd probably want the 500 grain full metal jacket.


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The 336 "concept" Marlin is primarily designed for deer hunting. The evolutionary expansion into .458 caliber rounds has not included upgrades in stock design or recoil pads which means that the Marlin 1895's and variants, recoil to uncomfortable levels when you use heavy loads.

I have a very soft spot for Marlin .45/70's. I have tested and reviewed up to 3 at a time and probably more than a dozen since the early 70's when re-released. They were consistently very good rifles with accuracy that was routinely around .5 MOA at 50 yards with factory open sights.

But....Once you step into the world of dangerous game rifles, there are options for little more money that are more specialized both for the game and the mitigation of recoil, which translates into controlability.

I have loaded and shot animals with 500gn Hornady Roundnose bullets in the .45/70. The won't feed or extract as loaded rounds, being too long for the action, but they slip into the chamber easily because of the long throat and shoot quite accurately for cull work inside 150 yards.

It may be ok to build loads for fun, but a dangerous game hunt means the animal has an opportunity and liklihood (albiet no matter how small) of hurting you.

I recommend you choose wisely and for the right reasons.

John


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AussieGunWriter,
Beartooth bullets have a 525gr bullet designed especially for the Marlin 45-70. It will feed and extract as it is intended.
You are very much spot on about the Marlin Guide gun not being anything like a dangerous game gun. While not a stunt to hunt brown bear with one, it's almost unheard of for an actual guide to carry one. Simply put, to many parts in the old design, to many things could go wrong. They can lock up! A DG gun is a bolt gun in .375 and up.

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Originally Posted by AussieGunWriter
...The evolutionary expansion into .458 caliber rounds has not included upgrades in stock design or recoil pads which means that the Marlin 1895's and variants, recoil to uncomfortable levels when you use heavy loads....





A couple of the newer models (1895GBL, and 1895SBL) come standard with laminate pistol-grip stocks, and Decelerator pads.

I have one of the GBL's, it's a whole lot more comfy under recoil than an older 1970's 1895 I had, that came with a straight grip, and a hard plastic buttplate.

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Originally Posted by gulo

...
So, to reiterate the question, what i'm getting at is can i handload for my .45-70 which is not an old gun the same intensity cartridges as for the .450 Marlin.

...


Actually something I know about!

In most load manuals they have three versions of 45/70 loads.

Loads for:
Old / weak actions
Strong Lever actions Marlin�)
Bolt actions

That said if you have a Marlin Lever action chambered in 45/70 you can use those loads, which are very close to 450 Marlin loads.

I have a 450 Marlin (and love it) and I do hand load for it� but I would not want it to be my Primary (or backup) gun for Elephant, Cape buffalo or Hippo.

Just sayen

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Originally Posted by mountainclmbr
The 350 Hornaday is a Hot Core bonded bullet and is pretty tough. Should do for North American DG if you do your part.


NOT!

It's a good bullet, but it's still only a common cup and core.

[Linked Image]

They turn inside out just like the Speer Hot-Cor and plain old Remington SP do.

For DG with a Marlin 45-70 I prefer either moderately hard cast bullets or good quality soft jacketeds, with Woodleighs in the 405 weight being fine. And for DG in any caliber, I prefer not to run my ammo hot or even very close to it. 1800 is plenty with 405s. That can be reached well inside of safe pressures and makes reliable ammo that isn't brutally difficult to control in a light rifle.


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Forget which publication this was from, but it looks like this specific 45-70 bullet provided plenty of penetration;

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


[Linked Image]
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That was Wolfe's Rifle magazine, issue #212 to be exact, at least that's what you pic says. grin


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Originally Posted by Donner
You are very much spot on about the Marlin Guide gun not being anything like a dangerous game gun. While not a stunt to hunt brown bear with one, it's almost unheard of for an actual guide to carry one.


The lever action rifles might not be widely used by guides, but some long time big bear guides, such as Ed Stevenson, used them frequently;

http://www.z-hat.com/Stevenson.htm

[Linked Image]


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Thanks for the info.


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There's some helpful info on this thread, but also a LOT of nonsense!!!

The 450 Marlin will NOT keep with the 45/70 in the same rifle simply due to the fact that the case holds slightly less powder!

Compare in Barnes #4.

A number of other manuals send conflicting messages.

Bob

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Originally Posted by Oldfenderguy
Originally Posted by Donner
You are very much spot on about the Marlin Guide gun not being anything like a dangerous game gun. While not a stunt to hunt brown bear with one, it's almost unheard of for an actual guide to carry one.


The lever action rifles might not be widely used by guides, but some long time big bear guides, such as Ed Stevenson, used them frequently;

http://www.z-hat.com/Stevenson.htm

[Linked Image]

First off, the 1886 Browning Repo and 1895 Marlin Guide Gun don't have much in common, save the chambering. Pretty much anyone who's handled both can figure that out. I'd also say that an example of one don't say much, or maybe it says a lot. I donno. A hopped up 45-70 inside 25 yards is golden, but putting down a poorly hit bear from 100 yards out is another matter. As a hired guide this might come into play. Again not the best choice. My own Guide gun is running 425 grain cast bullets at north of 1900 fps with 53 grains of H322 and I have no problem hunting brownies with it but I won't call it a dangerous game rifle or put someone at risk because I wanted to carry a short handy rifle. I'd rather have an oldfashion bolt type gun.

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Hi Donner;

Your cast bullet load for your GG looks somewhat familiar.

I don't have a Guide Gun anymore having gone back to the Classic with the 22" tube. And I've owned most of the hot magnums all the way to the .458 Win Mag, and still own a .458 WM and a .300 Win Mag.

My current favorite load in the Marlin is a 465gr semi-hardcast at 1930 fps.

That load, or one very similar, flattened a trophy-class black bear at 70 yards a few years back. It has a very good ballistic rating from my Marlin at .465 BC. So, I thought a comparison with a .375 H&H shooting a 300gr Nos. Part.(.398 BC) at 2600 fps might be revealing:

300 H&H @ 200 yds:

vel.=2182/3170 ft-lbs
momentum = 93.5 lb ft/sec
TKO = 35


Marlin .45-70 @ 200 yds:

vel.=1630/2743 ft-lbs
momentum = 108.28 lb ft/sec
TKO = 49.6

It certainly would seem that while the old H&H is no slouch for Brown bear at 200 yds, and shoots flatter than the Marlin load, yet the older .45-70 in a Marlin wins the contest by a significant degree in momentum, TKO and frontal area of the bullet (by 50%), plus having the edge in sectional density.

There's also the fact that the Marlin can be (as you know) reloaded with one in the chamber, ready to fire in approaching a downed game animal. With one in the chamber and four in the mag, for my money I'd choose the Marlin over the H&H as a guide OR hunter of certain soft-skinned DG since shots would be far less than 200 yards.

That's my take from here...

Regards,

Bob

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Up close the ol 45-70 hits like Thors hammer, no doubt. It's the rifle itself that I'm not quite sold on for a day in day out harsh conditions guide rifle. I'll have no problem hunting with it but I also see it for what it is.

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Originally Posted by AussieGunWriter

... which means that the Marlin 1895's and variants, recoil to uncomfortable levels when you use heavy loads.

I recommend you choose wisely and for the right reasons.

John


For the non-45/70 shooter, there is so much truth in that, that it would be easy to under-estimate what is being said.

I owned a Marlin 45/70 at the same time as a CZ550 that I'd rechambered to 458Lott. A hard-cast 420gr at 1785fps was a brute compared to the 458Lott with a 480gr Woodleigh at 2150fps. A 458WinMag with 480gr Woodleigh at 2060 fps was positively gentle compared to the 45/70 loaded up. The Marlin bucked hard and carried on compared to the 458Lott which was much more controllable. Weight and stock design are the reasons why.

As for projectiles ... I'd choose the best of the new technology offerings ... and launch the Woodleigh 325gr Hydro at a sedate 2000-2100fps or take it to 2300fps if you like. It WILL penetrate, it will leave a wound channel more reminiscent of a 'hard soft' and it will be manageable in the 45/70. Not in the 45/70, but in another (I think a 375H&H with 300gr Hydro) it has accounted for 3 water buffalo to the one shot. It's a very surprising projectile.

Just my opinion.
Cheers...
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That sounds a bit strained there Con.

A 420 gr bullet at 1785 fs has about 35 ftlbs of shoulder whack in an 8 lb Marlin, the 480 gr at 2150 has twice that in a 10 lb rifle and the 480gr at 2060 has over 50 ftlbs.

While everyone has their own level of recoil "resistance", I guarantee all my 375 to 50 cal shooters stomp me very good even with muzzle brakes, when I'm shooting 450-600 gr bullets at 2000-2400 fs and that's in 9-14 lb rifles.

The muzzle brake and heavier rifles do mitigate the recoil somewhat, but I DON'T think ANY heavy bullet at those velocities could be considered "gentle by comparison". NONE of my 450-550 gr 45-70 loads come anywhere near the same recoil level as the same bullet loaded up 300-600 fs faster in my 458 WM or 45-120 even though the rifles weight 1-6 lbs difference.

I do agree that the "lighter" 45-70 load in a 8-9 lb rifle has twice the stomp most people are comfortable with. I run my 458 American at ~1950fs with a 430 gr hard cast lead bullet...a bit faster with 300 gr jacketed. I don't think it's all that bad to shoot in my 9.6 lb rifle but I can't get many to try it after I shoot it first and they see the recoil...even WITH the MB on.

As far as the difference between the 450 Marlin and the 45-70, there's only about 2 grains of H20 difference in case capacities, so for all intents and purposes you can load them to identical velocities and pressures...if you know how. My 458 American has the same case volume as the 450 Marlin or the 45-70 when trimmed to the same lengths...I HAVE WEIGHED SEVERAL CASES and compared them just to see, when all the BS started about which one was "better" and the 450 Marlin was "no good".

It's all subjective anyway, people have to "prove" this one is better than that one, and anyone who has done this "shooting thing" for any length of time usually has very definite ideas of what they like...so what does it matter? There is so much BS piling up around the forums even a rocket can't keep us above it and we are ALL buried by it.

Use what you like and blow the rest off...it is YOUR hunt, why let someone else decide how to run it.

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I agree there is not a big difference between the 450M and 45/70.

The Manuals I have shows a slight edge to the 450M In A Marlin Lever Gun.


All that said, I still don't think either is an elephant gun...


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Manuals never give all the goodies. There is a whole lot of things to consider when deciding what IS and what ISN'T the gun to use for a particular game animal, dangerous or not.

A hard cast 500 plus grain bullet will penetrate end to end in an american Bison, a Brahma bull or Angus, asian or african buffalo at 1500 fs, and have many times over. I have loads I test on big rounds of Lodgepole pine, 3 ft in diameter and some of them go through the first log and into a second one.

I wouldn't go out dangrous game hunting with a levergun by ANY stretch of the imagination, I've had several over the last 50 odd years and the have ALL jammed at one time or another. Roll one over on it's right side while racking a round and it's liable to fall out on the ground. Or short stroke it and have a REAL mess on you hands I think it's totally stupid to even think a levergun is a DGR, but everyone makes choices...some good ones, some bad ones.

It's up to ME to decide WHAT rifle I will use for WHAT game I go after and it's MY responsibility for my own bacon...and so it is with others. Make the wrong choice at the wrong time and YOU pay the consequences...the rest of the "stuff" is just that...STUFF. It has less to do with the cartridge and more to do with the rifle and it's mechanical limitations or the nut holding it.

Hey, it's YOUR skin and YOUR toy and you gotta be real about it. Kinda like bringing a knife to a gunfight...unless you are VERY good with a blade and very close, guess who wins...samo-samo with a levergun.

For all you hairy legged he-sheep, if you want a lesson in why the Marlin has pressure limitations, just take one apart, take off the barrel and look at the threads and look at all the pieces and parts, the bolt, the way it locks up, how the lever works etc...real hard. It works well at the design pressures for it's designed game...but for the stuff with teeth or very big feet and a trunk I want a bolt gun and all the stomp I can get...and something that will work when I'm upside down and backassward.

Luck

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NFG,
you said very well, what I've been hinting at!

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Soooo


I think we agree...

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How many have or will ever actually GO DGR hunting, refering to the "dark continent" type or large bear, yet the forums are full of tons of "stuff" on the subject.

Funny thing is, I've shot more deer and relieved more downed cattle with a 22LR than I have with any of the dozens of shooters I've have/had over the years. I even dusted a medium sized black bear with a 38 SP when it was tearing up my trash bin and wouldn't leave. It was young, starving, dangerous and not afraid and much better off dead than getting tangled up with some kid, dog, or other ranch animal. If I had known it was a bear I would have grabbed my 12 ga loaded with buck and slugs instead of a pea shooter. blush

There are ranches around the area I live that raise bison for hunting and meat, just like cattle. You can stand by the fence and have a 2000lb bull come up and eat hay or lick salt out of your hand. They just stand around grazine while someone "hunts" one already picked out by the rancher...and paid upwards of $2500 for the "priviledge"...I don't call that hunting, but it does give a good idea of what a 45 cal is capable of...at least.

I won't go into the woods during hunting season because idiots run up and down the dirt roads on ATV's and pickups and the dust is so bad you can't see anything much anyway...the pall of dust hangs over the mountains for two weeks and you can walk across the mountains from one valley to another on the tops of campers and motorhomes. Things have sure changed over the past 50 years.

The 45-70 or 450 Marlin cartridges have plenty of pizzzaz for most large game animals world wide coupled with the correct bullet, dangerous or otherwise, but it is an oxymoron to mention levergun and DGR in the same breath...I want something with A LOT MORE whackdoodle, thank you. If I happen to get in the "sh**" and that's all I had to work with, calling a time out to run home and get my REAL DGR might not work. Hahahahahah

I guess we all need our fantasies to get through the day. whistle

I apologize for the rant, I need to lighten up. blush Hahahahaha

Luck

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NFG, I must say it is good to know not everybody is jumping on the 45/70 bandwagon for hunting "dangerous game" these days.
I love hunting with my lever guns, however the only critter that it sees, that some classify as dangerous is hogs here in the USA. It drops them like they ran into a Mack Truck head on!

I have also seen the pictures and read stories of hunters using the 45/70 lever gun with this or that speacial bullet and poweder load. Killing Cape Buff and other dangerous African game..........anybody can get lucky but sooner or later you will end up paying the Pieper.

I myself am more in tune to thinking like Mr. Elmer Keith, bigger is always better and my .458-Lott or .475-mag don't mine proving so. The hunting of bears I have always left to my .375-Wby or .416-Remmy "all rifles" in the model 70 Wincherter bolt gun, especially if I am going to bet my life on the rifle in hand.

Last edited by Tonk; 02/24/11.

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How about hogs. Hogs are a mean hard to put down game.

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I own a Guide Gun and would personally look at hard cast (gas checked). I like Beartooth, but the 525 gr is a little too much in my opinion. I've settled on the 405 grain version and have shot them over powders like Re-7 and H322.


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funny how after 140 years or so, lever guns suddenly don't work...


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LOL, I've got a 115 year old '86 in 45-70 chunking 500 grs at a mere 1237 fps with holy black, I'd like to see some "wont workers" try to catch one. smile


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Originally Posted by gunner500
I ran 525 piledrivers outta my marlin @1755fps w/ rl-7 a good stout but safe load.
If You wanna hot-rod a 45-70 get a Ruger #1, a coupls boxes of beartooth 525 piledrivers, starline brass, cci-250 primers, and some rl-7 and have at it.
When that gets boring have Your smith ream it to 45-90, 45-100, or 45-120.
The 45-120 Sharps will cure all wonderment about hot-roddin the old straight walled 45 cal. cases.

Gunner



here is another method of curing the wonderment. I kind of doubt I'd shoot your 525 gr. load out of this twice... 350s @ 1925 are enough.

[Linked Image]


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Quote
I've had several over the last 50 odd years and the have ALL jammed at one time or another. Roll one over on it's right side while racking a round and it's liable to fall out on the ground.


This is completely true. I have two Marlin .45-70s and like them a lot. But when people talk about bolt action dangerous game rifles here many will insist that they must be CRF, no push feeds allowed. But no one ever mentions that when talking about lever actions.

Why?

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Originally Posted by toad
Originally Posted by gunner500
I ran 525 piledrivers outta my marlin @1755fps w/ rl-7 a good stout but safe load.
If You wanna hot-rod a 45-70 get a Ruger #1, a coupls boxes of beartooth 525 piledrivers, starline brass, cci-250 primers, and some rl-7 and have at it.
When that gets boring have Your smith ream it to 45-90, 45-100, or 45-120.
The 45-120 Sharps will cure all wonderment about hot-roddin the old straight walled 45 cal. cases.

Gunner



here is another method of curing the wonderment. I kind of doubt I'd shoot your 525 gr. load out of this twice... 350s @ 1925 are enough.

[Linked Image]


Damn, I bet so, what's it weigh, 5.5lbs?


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Some of the best loading data I've found for heavy loads in the 45-70 are in handloader # 248. Brian Pearce wrote the article and has pressure data included.
I found his velocities were a little low compared to the velocities chronographed in my rifles. However both of mine are recent manufacture 1886 with 22" (same length) barrels so I backed off 1 grain.
As to reliability of lever actions both will feed upright, sideways or upside down, fast or slow cycling. Why it would need to feed upside down I'm not too sure, but they are utterly reliable.
For soft skin dangerous game I believe with the 405 wooleigh @ 2050 would be more than sufficient.
For cape buffalo I would definitely utilize something else.
I think it's interesting the a 450/400 is considered a dangerous game cartridge, 400 grain @ 2050 (usually slightly slower over a chronograph) but a 405 @ over 2000 from a 45/70 is not for soft skinned game.
I know some will say the 400 has a better sectional density which is true but consider the 405 woodleigh has a higher sectional density than the 180 30 cal or 270 375.
The woodleigh at this speed holds together great, over 90% weight retention, does not expand quite as much as the 405 Kodiak and penetrates better. Besides that they a quite accurate.
JMHO

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Originally Posted by gunner500


Damn, I bet so, what's it weigh, 5.5lbs?


just shy of 6#.


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to put the 1885 into context. the Marlin here is a 16" Trapper, not a GG, and the Browning has been cut to 19" from 22" IIRC.

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Hell of a brace of lightweight Thundersticks there Toad, nice!


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thanks, gunner. they range from ~6# to ~8# for the '86s

have an '86 made in 1891, but it's a .45-90, the crescent butt plate is kind of a pain, and the long heavy barrel is a deal breaker...

and most of 'em have shared the woods with big bears.


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Originally Posted by toad
thanks, gunner. they range from ~6# to ~8# for the '86s

have an '86 made in 1891, but it's a .45-90, the crescent butt plate is kind of a pain, and the long heavy barrel is a deal breaker...

and most of 'em have shared the woods with big bears.


Sweet, that's what they're made for, my '86 45-70 is the little half round half octagon rifle with a 24" barrel and half mag, it's plenty handy for an '86.

ANY critter short of Elephant can be handily taken inside 125 yards, it shoots really well with black powder.


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