Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters 375 H&H vs 416 Rem for Africa

Greetings,
I was wondering what some experienced people would have to say about choosing a rifle chambered in one or the other of these cartridges for use in Africa. The reason I ask is that I long to go to Africa to hunt Cape Buffalo and Lion someday. I am a regular working stiff, so doubt that I'll ever be able to afford to go to Africa more than once or twice in my lifetime, therefore the need for only a single dangerous game rifle (at least at this time). I really like the Winchester Model 70 Safari Express, but cannot decide on the cartridge. I understand that either of these cartridges should work for buffalo and lion, but I don't want to end up with something like the 416 Rem that provides more recoil than I can stand and comfortably shoot accurately with. I am not especially sensitive to recoil. I own a .338 Win Mag that I shoot regularly and have used for Brown Bear, Caribou, and many elk and I have shot a 375 H&H and it doesn't seem too bad to me either. What do you think? Personally, since I already shoot a 338, I lean towards the 416, since the 338 and 375 are so close to one another. However, I realize that the 375 is the "all-around" caliber that can do most anything. Craig Boddington recommended in his "Safari Rifles" book that he saw the 338 and 416 as the ideal two rifle battery. I respect his opinion, but in his survey with PH's in Africa, he got a lot of other views. I would welcome anyone's opinion on this, especially if you have experience with both cartridges (or similar). Thanks.

I'd say the 375 H&H is enough gun 95% of the time, and the 40 cals are enough gun 100% of the time, given proper shot placement. The 416 shooting 400's @ 2400 fps shoots just as flat as the 375 shooting 300's @ 2500. Either of those loads is flat enough shooting for 250 yds given a 200 yd zero.

Yes, the 416 has more recoil than a 375, but if you can handle a 338 and 375 with aplomb, you'll have no problem stepping up to a 416.

I personally find most folks need to step up to the 45 calibers shooting 500 gr pills before recoil becomes objectionalble.

Join SCI, meet some other hunters, go to the clubs and try their rifles.

Take your time and buy a good, used .416, like CZ-550 in .416 Rigby (ammo is expensive), or a Model 70 in .416 Rem Mag. Handload it down if you think the recoil is not too bad, and play with it. If you don't like it, sell it and get something else, without losing any money except ammo cost (which was fun to shoot).

Likewise, you can find Whitworth Mauser .375s for $500-600, used Model 70s for $700, Ruger 77 RSM for $850-1000, etc. You need to try a bunch of them to see how they fit you and sights line up. If you like the caliber more than the rifle, buy different rifle. Or upgrade to a nicer one you find. Buy the new one after you have cut your teeth on the used ones that will retain their value at resale.

I have owned both, and still have a .375 H&H. Jeff Cooper's hooting master John Gannaway says the .375 H&H is "...nifty as black shoes" and "...everyone should have one".

Both cartridges will work on your Africa hunt. The over.40 cartridges are needed if you have to sort out a wounded animal at close range in tough cover.

.375 ammunition is available everywhere, and you can start hunting now with that rifle. PHs like to see clients with a .375 because their experience usually is folks can shoot them well.

Recently I have been shooting a .376 Steyr, which is a .375 Short if you will.

Now in Zim in '02 after I put two 300 grain softs behind the shoulder of a big buff and he was still standing there, I was thinking .400 caliber thoughts. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

jim

Lion and buffalo present two different sets of problems. One weighs 450 pounds and is "soft,", the other weighs 1,600 and is as "hard" as they come. A .375 H&H is fine for lion, but not enough for buffalo unless you like having the wits scared out of you. A .416 will do nicely for buffalo and will therefore handle a lion with aplomb, so that is the way I would go. By the way, CB's combo of .416 and .338 is exactly what I would choose.

I have some info that may be helpful.

I have owned 3 different .416 Weatherby's, a .416 Remington several .458's and a .460 and also have several decades handloading experience as well as many many hundreds of kills using these same cartridges.

I think you should go with the .416 Remington.

The reason the .375 is universally popular is not because of it's power or killing ability on large game, but because it has a recoil level that most casual hunters and that is really what most of us are, can accommodate.

We already knew that putting a bullet in the right place is the primary objective, so if it is a .375 caliber bullet then usually everyone is happy and you get a taxidermy bill.

The .416 hits noticeably harder than the .375 but the difference in recoil does not take it into an area that you will not be able to handle. It is more, make no mistake, but if you load the cartridge to your recoil tollerance and practice as you should, then it will prove more effective and comforting on dangerous game.

For lion, I recommend you use the Woodleigh Weldcore 340 grain spire point bullet and go for accuracy as you will have confidence to place shots precisely both for plains game and for lion.

For a heavy load, you can go 2 roads and I would get a box of each to see what your rifle likes and make sure you are still ok with the loads in terms of recoil.

Buy a box of 350 Grain Barnes X bullets and a box of the new Woodleigh 450 Grain Weldcores with the heavier jackets.

Woodleigh is no "johnny come lately" like the sudden rush of bonded bullets on the market today and Woodleigh's are tested on buffalo before being released to the public so they are always a proven bullet.

The 350 X is a great bullet for longer shots and will penetrate a buffalo lengthwise. The Woodleigh will introduce him to the speed of gravity with certainty and haste. Woodleigh bullets absolutely numb big animals and take away all their enthusiasm for aggression.

I personally, would take all these to Africa but I would base the loads I carried in the field on terrain which will influence the range of the shot. Your outfitter can advise you on that.

Regarding the 45's, the other contributors are correct as to the increase in recoil and only hardened shooters can conquer these rifles.

In terms of performance on game, my experiecne is that the .458 is a much better cartridge than the experts claim, especially when handloaded to potential. I use 2 loads in my current .458 and I use the same bullets in my .460.

These are the 400 grain Barnes X and the 550 grain Woodleigh. My experievce with these 2 bullets is that if it can breath, these bullets will cure the problem permanently.

I load the 400 grainers to 2440 fps in the .458 which is a top velocity load and to 2900 fps in the .460 which makes it think it is a 7mm Remmy.

With the 550 grainers, I get 2050 fps in the .458 with very heavy recoil because of the light weight of the Model 70 and 2460 fps in the .460.

Either load slams one ton animals to the ground. The .45's do hit harder than the .416's there is no challenging that fact. What is enough is really determined by what is enough for you as an individual to handle.

Being a handloader is the most practical thing you can do to ensure you end up with the best combination.

Amen!

I'll never forget the first recovered Woodleigh bullets that I ever saw � a cigar or shoe box full of Woodleighs that my friend Geoff McDonald (who makes 'em) had recovered from buffalo and boar. All were photogenically expanded and obviously still very nearly all there. Geoff clearly knows how to make superb premium big-game bullets.
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Welcome to our forum, John! I hope you'll be here often!

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Since you are not particularly recoil-sensitive I would lean toward the .416. But fire one first a few times to make sure. Do it offhand, as the thing that turns most shooters off the .416's is our silly American obsession of shooting everything off a benchrest except in the field. This makes recoil seem 3-4 times as bad as it really is.

With all due respect to our obviously experienced Aussie friend, I would bring one expanding load and one solid load to Africa. Too many loads means you'll end up carrying a lot of ammo you won't shoot, and there are definite restrictions on how much you can take these days, both on airplanes and in some countries. (This is from a gun writer who HAS brought too damn many loads--and rifles--to field-test in Africa.)

In my experience the classic 400-grainer works well in the .416's. I have used the 400-grain Nosler Partition as a soft more often than any other, and it works well. They moved the partition forward and really beefed up this bullet, so it normally retains around 90% of its weight. It will penetrate a buffalo's chest at any reasonable angle, yet usually won't pop through the skin on the far side--which many PH's like when shooting buffalo in herds, as it prevents wounding another. It really whacks buffalo.

Have used both Barnes and Trophy Bonded solids, and prefer the Trophy Bondeds, as they are essentially a roundnose with a flat tip. These feed well in magazines but hit noticeably harder than RN solids. But about as good should be the new Barnes banded solid with flat point, a very similar design--but a little longer overall in the same weight, as there's no lead core.

All that said, the .375 will do the job fine, with good bullets aimed correctly.

MD

For all readers not used to my "in your face" style of review, please do not think I would intentionally denigrate to amuse myself in these forums.

I had my own website I had to close down because it was interactive and designed to allow readers to ask technical questions and I would pass on info based on my experiences.

I closed it after it reached 3,500 hits per day and litterally drowned me in unpaid work. I have got kids to feed as well you know, and I havn't been succesful at getting them to eat targets and lead fragments yet. Not even with milk!

FYI

There are no hunting seasons in Australia, no bag limits and no Department of Wildlife. The average Aussie can kill hundreds or even thousands of animals in a lifetime or a single year if he wants depending what he is hunting.

I have known hunters and am guilty of it myself in younger days of taking thousands of rounds away for a weeks hunting.

As a past Technical Editor for a commercial magazine, I had 2 brothers (Professional cullers) that used to correspond with me who took 12,000 documented kills 4 years.

At the SHOT show in February, I was talking to Geoff MacDonald from Woodleigh Bullets who knows a hunter that has taken over 10,000 buffalo.

I myself have shot out as many as 4 barrels from a single action and many others leave me for dead in the total number of kills they have made.

The one great advantage in being able to pass on information is that none of us (Aussies) has ever seen ballistic gellatine and can only offer experience based on flesh and bone free range experience as game farms are also illegal in most of Australia and a hunter that uses one is disgraced if word got out.

Different culture to be sure, but I hope some good can come of sharing a little experience here and there. Besides, I know I don't know it all, so hope to drain a little info for myself where I can.

Pretty sound advice Aussie. Now if only you could find a way to put your politicos into captivity You'd be all set. Glad to have you with us.

Aussie, I had a brain cramp. I meant to ask you if you guys get to hunt the red buffalo??? I heard they were as hostile and tough as they come.

EvilTwin,
Thanks for the support.

The polies there are as brain dead as anywhere on the rock and their only real contribution is to perfect the concept of the travelling cocktail party, remembering of course, that governments have no money. they are in effect, penniless bums sponging off the tax payer.

If you write to them and sign your letter, "You remain my humble servant" they get offended?

How can a public servant get offended at that I ask you?

The "Red Buffaol" you refer to, I am assuming is the wild scrub bulls that are hunted there. If so, these are generally more dangerous than buffalo and far more aggressive. Cheaper to hunt too.

There are red Buffalo in Africa commonly called "Dwarf Buffalo" that are native to the scrub rather than the savannah and are smaller than the cape variety and notably more aggressive but unfortunately, not in Aussieland.

Australia has a range of animals that are mostly (Except for the Hog Deer) 52 weeks a year open season.

These include 6 species of deer:
Fallow in all 4 color phases, Red, Rusa, Chital (axis), Sambar and Hog deer.

Also have feral goats, pigs, foxes, brumbies (wild horses), donkeys, buffalo, banteng (A wild ox native to Asia), camels, and a host of spooky stuff that continually gets thrown into conversation like panthers, wobbygongs and whatever.

If you like testing bullets and cartridges, it is one of the only placeses now that you can literally wear out the gun barrels on game every year.

A good place to learn about handloading and ballistic performance because every time you make a load you don't like, you can blast off the rounds on feral game.

My record is 100 kills from 110 rounds in 3 hours. No big deal over there.

Sounds like 19th century America. There is an Asian red buffalo that is huge, nasty and likes water. I know there was(?) a population in S. America and was under the impression there were some in Australia too. Pardon me but I'm NOT up to date on flora and fauna in australia. I don't watch those characters on bunny hugger TV.

If you have a chance test fire the 416 to ensure you can handle the recoil...as suggested not off a bench! Most likely you should be able handle the 416 given you are somewhat tolerant of recoil.

The 416 would be my choice over the 375 for Cape Buffalo. I would use 400 grain bullets...my choice these days are mono-metal bullets that upset/expand somewhat ie Barnes TSX and North Fork Cup Points at 2400fps out of a 416 they should work very well....there is really no need for a Solid with these bullets. I used the TSX last year on Buff, with my 458 Lott 500grain bullets, at 2250 fps and it works.

Use the 338 win for the lion a Woodleigh Soft or such would work well!

All,

Thanks for all of your contributions. There was certainly a lot of information in your responses. As a result, I am going with my first instinct and have decided on the 416 Rem. When I get to Africa, I intend to use the .338 for plains game and most likely lion, as was suggested here, and keep the 416 for the bigger stuff. Now all I have to do is figure out the best scope choice for the .416. Any thought on that? Once again, thanks for the help.

Test

I've got a 416 and a 375 in identical rifles, and the difference in recoil is not much to write home about if from the standing position. You'll do great with the 416.

I went through the whole scope search when I bought my 416, and ended up with a Leupold 1.75-6. To my eye, it looks great on the rifle. More importantly it's got plenty of FOV, plus more than enough magnification should I ever need it. I didn't like the idea of clamping a ring right over the objective lens on the 1.5-5, although many do it successfully. The 1.75-6 is the perfect length to work with Talley mounts on a Model 70.

Charlie Sisk initially recommended that scope (I think), and I'm glad he did.

If you load for your 416, give RL15 a serious look. It burns clean, stable, and produces good accuracy and velocity in my rifle. I wanted to try some 400gr TSX's in mine, and Barnes indicated that they had great luck with this powder as well.

Either one is great. I've killed buffalo with a 375 Weatherby (awesome cartridge) 416 Rem and 300 Weatherby (180 ballistic tips it was my only choice) and a 458 lott. All were one shot kills. Not brained either, most were quatering towards me shots. If you can afford it have Sisk build you one and you will have gun that will last a lifetime. Both the 375 or 416 are great Alaska guns also. These are two of my favorite calibers so enjoy stepping into the bigger bore guns. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Could you give some details about this kill? Sounds interesting. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Argentina March 2004. If i could figure out how to post a pic i would. Rick maybe you can help me out. I was hunting birds when the outfitter offered my buddy and I a chance to hunt Asian Water Buffalo which are easily as big as Cape. Only one problem we didn't have a rifle. He offered us his 300 Weatherby with "bullets made just for this rifle" I looked at the ammo and realized the outfitter didn't know jack about rifles because the rounds were loaded with 180 grain ballistic tips. I told him that wasn't a buffalo round but he insisted it was. I told him we would hunt Buf but I would not be held responsible for a wounded animal if I made a good shot and the bullet failed to perform. He reluctantly agreed (i think he just wanted the trophy fee). Anyway we got into a good spot hidden under a tree about 200 yards out. My buddy shot first and took a nice bull with 3 shots. The first one was enough but as long as it is still standing our theory is keep shooting. The herd ran around the dying animal for a minute and then settled down as they couldn't see us. So i grabbed the rifle from Greg (my hunting partner) and took aim on a great bull looking right at us. Unfortunately the Ziess scope had a piece rattle loose during Greg's shot so we quickly disassembled the rear eye piece and sort of fixed the problem but I ended up with about a 2/3 field of view. The buf was still trying to figure out what we were so I shot him right were the neck comes out of the body and he dropped like a rock. Charlie Sisk hates this story but I have 4 witnesses. The ballistic tip dropped a 2,000 lbs animal with one shot. Truth be told the shot was probably around 225 yards and the bullet had slown down enough that it basically acted as a Partition.

The real problem was the outfitter looked at us smugly and said " I told you these bullets were made for buffalo". <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />