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Question - is there enough advantage to go through the extra forming step to do a Vartarg or just simply do a 20 Fireball. I know that there is a lot of data out there for the Vartarg I am just not sure of the true advantages. Any advice would be appreciated.

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Goto 6mmBR, http://www.6mmbr.com/index.html or Saubier, http://www.saubier.com/forum.html then decide just how much hair splitting or nitpicking you want to do. For all intents and purposes it's the same cartridge with a different names.

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I contemplated building a 20 Vartarg for sometime, but could not get past the proprietary dies etc. I ended up building a .221 FB and have never looked back. Lower cost, less hassle, no .20 cal. cleaning stuff to buy, more load data, plenty of .22 cal bullets.

PS, if your using a 700 action, make sure you start with a Fireball donor, and not a .223 donor.

Last edited by Grand; 02/15/11.
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NFG and Grand thanks, I guess I should have gone into a little more detail. The donor gun is a Rem 722 (222) the tube is most likely going to be a Lilja SS 1-12 24" heavy varmint. Stock - Undecided, and trigger will be replaced.
NFG - it is the splitting of the hair that keeps us playing with these things. And Grand - I have the 22's covered too well - looking for a baby sister to the 20 Practical - 17's covered also. But again thank you for your response.

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Originally Posted by Grand
I contemplated building a 20 Vartarg for sometime, but could not get past the proprietary dies etc. I ended up building a .221 FB and have never looked back. Lower cost, less hassle, no .20 cal. cleaning stuff to buy, more load data, plenty of .22 cal bullets.

PS, if your using a 700 action, make sure you start with a Fireball donor, and not a .223 donor.


What is the difference between a Fireball donor and a 223 donor?


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I have a take off 204 given to me, by another forum member. ( thanks again TOM!)

I am looking at doing it in a 20 Vartag.. it is a shot out 204 barrel from Pac Nor...

Playing with another 204 barrel, I am just overly impressed as everyone else is with it..

but I do think the 20 Vartag Turbo in logical...even tho the 20 Fireball is very efficient, my logic is I can load the Turbo to Fireball specs or up to Turbo specs....

Guess the cheapest way on dies, is get a collet bushing die in 222 and then just use thicker bushings to neck it to 20 cal...
and a 222 die will still seat the bullets just fine..and a 222 body die will knock the shoulder back..

I sort of wish Hornady would also make a 20 HMR rimfire.... I think it would be a better round than a 17 HMR due to having a heavier bullet.... with performance between the 17 HMR ( 2550 fps MV ) and the 22 Mag with the 30 grain plastic tip bullets ( 2200 fps MV)

Speed sells to the masses, but accuracy sells to the purists..
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Originally Posted by Craigster
Originally Posted by Grand
I contemplated building a 20 Vartarg for sometime, but could not get past the proprietary dies etc. I ended up building a .221 FB and have never looked back. Lower cost, less hassle, no .20 cal. cleaning stuff to buy, more load data, plenty of .22 cal bullets.

PS, if your using a 700 action, make sure you start with a Fireball donor, and not a .223 donor.


What is the difference between a Fireball donor and a 223 donor?


The feed rails on the Fireball actions are different and the extractor is in a different location.

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Have you considered "splitting the difference" and choosing the .20 Tactical? Several major manufacturers make the dies. The .223 bolt face is perfect, since it is a glorified necked-down .223, and also the feed rails would not need to be changed.


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Originally Posted by Seafire
I sort of wish Hornady would also make a 20 HMR rimfire.... I think it would be a better round than a 17 HMR due to having a heavier bullet.... with performance between the 17 HMR ( 2550 fps MV ) and the 22 Mag with the 30 grain plastic tip bullets ( 2200 fps MV)


i believe that it is called the 5mm rimfire... though it is not made by Hornady at this time yet...


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That 20 Practical is great for us cheapos, not extra dies to buy OR brass...I built one last year...shoots great, plenty of velo, I use Redding bushing dies, the same ones as I use for my 17 Rem and 223 when I'm not using my Lee collet dies...just a smaller bushing....I think I read where someone was using a Lee 223 Collet die for crimping his 20 Practical...gotta check that out, doesn't quite compute.

You could do the same with the 20 FB with Redding bushing dies...just change the bushing and also the primer rod to 204 or 17 Rem.

Absolutely right Elkman, but splitting a hair and then splitting it again gets way to fine for my old eyes. Hahahahaha. I guess it depends on if it is an Elephant hair or a flea hair.

Luck

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the vartarg is a 20 fireball. Very little difference. You will be impressed at what the vartarg is capable of.



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NFG - Man if I get into double splitting I think my wife will send me and the guns out the door. I think that I am leaning to just the 20FB, That is what my 7 year old keeps telling me. This is actually his first build. His older brother and sister have been in on a couple each so I am letting him make the call. I have found that they keep it simple and don't spend as much time crunching data, they just pick the one that sounds cool.

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I would think 20 Fireball would be easier to form and play with. Also, the brass would at least be headstamped "Fireball," which might be a good thing for a kid.

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Pass the 8" twist 223AI and hold the fluff................


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Elkman: For the reasons mentioned above a .221FB/20 Vartarg built on a M-700 .223 donor will not reliably eject the brass. Use the correct donor and avoid ejection issues.

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The extractor isn't in a 'different' location on my 17 Fireball. Course I've only run 17 Fireball through it, and it did pickup 222 and 223 fine. Also ran the 17 Fireball bolt through my 222 and 223 and it ejects them fine.


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The extractor is in a different location, which causes the brass to be ejected at a different angle. .223 action will eject loaded FB ammo fine, but fired cases release from the extractor prematurely due to ejection angle.

.221 FB Left, .223 Right.

FB extractor at 8 O'Clock, .223 Extractor at 6 O'Clock

[Linked Image]

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Same/same on 17 Fireball/223, go figure.


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I joined this forum just to reply to this post.

Now, with the .17 WSM, .17 Fireball, and the .17 Hornet out, there are a couple more "in between" cartridges.

What I would like to see is something like a .20 WSM and maybe a .20 Hornet (closer to the .17 Hornet design than the .22 Hornet).

Also, I think I would take the simplicity of the .20 Practical over the .20 "Tactical" laugh and .20 "Vartarg".

Lastly, the .19 Calhoon, .19 Badger, and .19-223 Calhoon should not be overlooked.

I think a tiny bit bigger than the .17's and a tiny bit smaller than the .22's is the way to go. Would love to see some pictures of those in here.



17hmr vs 17wsm vs 17 hornet
[Linked Image from i.ytimg.com]


17 hornet vs 17 rem fireball vs 17 remington
[Linked Image from i.ytimg.com]


The lineup of 17s are (Left to Right): .17 Mach II, .17 HMR, .17 WSM, .17 Hornet, .17 Fireball, .17 Remington.
[Linked Image from guide.sportsmansguide.com]

[Linked Image from ingunowners.com]


Pictured left to right, 17 HMR, 17 Hornet, 22 Hornet, 223 Remington, and 220 Swift.
[Linked Image from realguns.com]


17hm2,17hmr,17 hornet, 17 fireball, 17 rem
[Linked Image from i26.photobucket.com]

Last edited by AubMassCoyote; 01/28/20.
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I think there are some guys who have 20 Ackley Hornets over on Saubier. Vartarg is about perfect if you ask me, I love both of mine. If you want to talk small caliber, that is the place.

http://www.saubier.com/forum.html

Last edited by jdunham; 01/27/20.

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