Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting Berger Hunting Bullets in VLD

Well stated.

I think I posted on this thread or the other thread going right now about my experience with a hard quartering to me whitetail buck. In through the shoulder exit through the flank/front of the opposite rear ham. From the mush that bullet made of that deer I think that a shot made from the opposite direction would have been just fine also. Bergers are not magic but they and they are frangible, but the resulting shrapnel is not pixie dust. The pieces carry enough weight for substantial penetration. I cannot help that all of the other animals that I have killed with Bergers have been more traditional broad side shots.

dave7mm-
Would you mind giving more details?

EddyBo �

I recall seeing that now that you mention it. I saw you are from �SW MS� and assumed it was a small deer, perhaps incorrectly. Just for the record (and it may be in your post), bullet diameter/weight/impact velocity?

Since you shot it from the front, I assume it went straight down, particularly given the damage you describe. My concern is more with shots quartering away, or worse, and more about elk than deer or antelope. (For the most part, I use the same loads for all three.)

According to VLD proponents:
1. Berger says not to expect more than 2-3� penetration before expansion and 14� after that.
2. Bigsqueeze, a VLD advocate, says you need to limit the angle to 30-35 degrees max and I think I�ve seen others suggest avoiding raking shots.
3. Bigsqueeze also reports Ray at Berger suggests 2850fps as the maximum impact velocity to prevent bullet blowup.
4. Mule Deer says the fragments often fail to dent the off-side ribs.
5. More than one (not you) refuses to address the issue of performance when deep penetration is needed, as with the buck I shot in 2007. (It could just as easily have been an elk.) Some refuse to admit the situation is a valid concern, others just refuse to address the issue at all.

You�ve undoubtedly seen the picture of the buck taken with a 140g 6.5mm at 3400fps, provided earlier in this thread. Lots of unnecessary meat damage there. If that was an exit wound I�m sure it dropped quickly. If it was a blow up on entrance, maybe not. I don�t run any hunting bullets that fast, but some of mine clock over 3200fps at the muzzle. Slowing them down to 2850fps, as Bigsqueeze says Berger suggests, means what � I get to choose between not taking shots inside 175 yards or ruining a front quarter?

I�m sure the VLDs work just fine on most chest shots, as there is too much evidence to support that conclusion for me to ignore it. The bullets I currently use also work well and I don�t worry about the angles should things go bad, or their velocity or ability to penetrate.

Coyote Hunter,

For me the VLD gives more advantages than any other design. The one drawback is it will not reliably penetrate a grass filled paunch on the way to the chest.

As long as you can see ribs and you hit ribs on a raking shot all will be well. If you must shoot at a departing animal then break the pelvis and finish with a second shot.

The benefits of the design far outweigh the drawbacks, for me.

Your aforementioned North Fork has way to low a BC for me to use as it severely restricts the bullets usefulness. There is no way I would give up 500yds of effective range to be able to shoot through the butt end of an animal on the way to the chest.

I have never had to shoot through a ham on the way to the chest but I regularly use the VLDs range advantage. We all have to make choices and if the butt to chest shot is important to a hunter he would be wise to choose a different bullet than the VLD.

I have taken a 500lb grizzly bear with a very strong raking shot on the first shot (He traveled 60yds and started swaying) and a directly going away shot with the second (DRT).

The VLD preformed perfectly for me in that instance, and in every other instance I have used it under.

I would recommend keeping muzzle velocity below 3300fps.

...............Well let`s see here!

I as a VLD advocate personally prefer limiting angled shots to no more than 30-35 degrees. Doesn`t mean that a few 45s cannot be taken.

So what if Berger recomends a low impact velocity of 1800 and a high of about 2850 fps and up to 3000 fps max. Many other bullet makers have some kind of recomended impact velocities for proper expansion so they can do what they do. Well Berger has their recos too! Berger did tell me by phone "In order to avoid a potential problem with the bullet blowing up from too much speed, they reco`d those maximum impact velocities." He did not say "that if 3000 fps was exceeded as an impact velocity, that the bullet "would" blow up before penetrating the 2" to 3" that the Bergers are supposed to do.

From my 300 WSM Frontier carbine, that certainly isn`t a problem. The 190 VLD which I used on my last elk hunt, had an MV of approx 2865 fps using RL17. In fact, that shouldn`t been an issue for most all 30s including the 300 Win, 300 Bee, 30-06, 308 etc. For just about all average killing distances for elk, 1800 to 2850 fps as an impact speed, is right on par. And if one suspects that his elk will be taken closer at less than 100 yards with his 300 Bee or Win Mag, then he can always load `er down to accomodate the VLD recomended impact speed.

I have addressed very plainly, the issue of penetration or the lack of it by the VLDs. More penetrations are needed IF the shooting angles are too wide and as a last resort on the last day of the hunt, a hind shot is taken to then penetrate forward to the vitals.

I have repeatedly stated, that the VLDs do not kill via a great deal of penetration. That is not the VLD gig or Berger`s concept of killing game.

As far as the deer pic is concerned where a 6.5mm VLD was used at a 3400 fps MV? Yep! I see alot of damage in the shoulder and neck area. But so what? Still plenty of meat there to be had from that deer from other areas.

And why should it matter whether the VLDs dent the off or opposite side ribs or not? Regardless, as long as you have a kill, what difference does that make? On larger girthed elk, VLD fragmentation doesn`t generally penetrate to the off side anyway. As long as the vitals are disrupted which really insures a kill, then why are complete pass throughs or almost complete pass throughs needed?...Oh I know! Just in case there is a wide angled shot or just in case one needs to track the game.

Your main beef with the VLDs are based on the "what ifs." What "if this" or "what if that" happens. We all think about those "what ifs." Guess I`m just lucky uh?...........48 one shot VLD kills. All taken at 35 degree shot angles or less, and all ran no further than a few yards after impact. Keep in mind though that over 45+ years of hunting, I have about 200 to 225 other head of game (mostly hogs) taken with other bullets, none of which were a hind quarter shot, or shots taken at extreme quartering angles. Lucky there too I guess.

In fact, I`ve seen a few cases of people coming back empty handed from their hunts, regardless of what darn bullet they were using.

We are clearly going to have to agree to disagree, which is fine by me.

You like the advantages the VLD gives you for your shooting, I prefer the advantages of the North Fork, MRX/TTSX, and others. I think both of us can honestly say �The benefits of the design far outweigh the drawbacks, for me.�

For what it is worth, the only time I�ve shot an animal �through a ham on the way to the chest� it was not the intended placement. For 25 years I could say �it hasn�t happened to me�. Fortunately, when it did, the bullet I was using was up to the task. It might never happen again or it might happen again on my next shot. Also, since I don�t shoot over 600 yards the BC of the North Fork bullets doesn�t bother me enough to matter and the BCs of the MRX and TTSX bother me even less.

That sounds like a pretty fair assessment.

We can all agree we need to understand how the bullets we choose to shoot game with will perform and use them appropriately.

This, I think, is at the core of a lot of bullet discussions;and folks who "know" their bullets and what they will do under a variety of circumstances,have few problems....

Since no one else really addressed it, in that situation, ie. a deer turning at the shot that puts the bullet "low in the right ham", a Berger would completely destroy the femur and most likely the spine, immobilizing the deer and allowing for another shot. I've had and/or taken raking shots (whether entrances or exits) through the femur/pelvic bones of several deer with several different bullets and calibers. TSX's, Ballistic-Tips, AMAX's, Partitions, SMK's... If I had to take a hole shot on a deer going away, I would much rather have a Berger or other rapidly expanding/fragmenting bullet then a TSX or other "tough" bullet. I've seen the results from both and I'll take the Berger...

That right there seems to about sum up most bullet arguments.

What works for some may not work for others, but we all know what type of bullet we use and how to use it, and what a person can do with it...

Coyote hunter, I shot that deer at around 350 with a 180 berger from a 7mmWSM running about 2900. It was not a small deer but not a monster either, about 210lbs. The deer did not go straight down he made little circles in the field before falling over. Here is a pic of the deer, below. I posted a threaad on it on my states dept of wildlife forums back when I killed the deer. In case you have any doubts and think this is some kind of recent fabrication you can go search the MDWFP forums which is now closed to posting and maybe find it under archived posts, same user name everywhere.



It may have been this one, cant remember which one it was, but one of these two.