Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting .308 sniper rifle for deer/elk/bear.

I recently acquired a .308 Rem Police sniper rifle with a 4-14x56 Government Model II sniper scope. I plan on using it for black bear, deer, and maybe elk this fall. Using a good quality range finder, I would like to try to kill a bear at around 500yds, a deer at 600 yds, and maybe an elk at 400-450 yds.

Since the scope is calibrated to the Federal 168 grain match cartridge, what would you guys recommend for a hunting bullet that would exhibit identical ballistics, but better performance on game as the 168gr HPBT?

Experienced opinions only please. Thanks.

BTW I have killed several elk, one bear, and dozens of mule deer (not to mention 2 cape buffalo and an elephant with 110 lb of ivory) so I am not a novice hunter.

For someone so skilled as to have taken "dozens" of big game including Dumbo, I find it hard to believe you need schooling on an appropriate bullet. Oh, I almost forgot "only experienced opinions please".

I have killed several deer and antelope with my .308 Win in the last few years and I just used the 175 Sierra MatchKing in Federal GMM. I wouldn't hesitate to use this same load on a black bear. If I were going to kill BIG hogs or elk with this round, the 168 gr TSX would probably be my go-to bullet.

This is my brother and his buck killed at 330 yds with my .308.

This is my buck killed with the same rifle at 525 yds.

The 165 Scirroco shoots to same POI as the Gameking in my 308 if that tells you anything.The Scirroco beats anything I've used as for as consistent performance at different impact velocities,but I confess to not having shot any of the game you mentioned atthe ranges you anticipate.I got other stuff that works better for that.

Jamison, Gene,

Thanks for the info. I guess, I'll try out the 168 Scirroco and the TSX on the practice range and see how well they work with my scope/rifle combination.

Supertrucker??

Hmm! Well all of my of my elk (including a 6x7) were shot within a 100yds using .270 Win and .7mm Wby. My bear was killed at about 60 yds with a .7mm Wby. Most of my deer were shot within a 150 yds using .270 Win and .7mm Wby (I did kill one at around 200 yds with a .7mm Wby). I have also shot 3 or 4 antelope (longest shot about 250 yds) with a .7mm Wby. The 2 cape buffalo and elephant were all shot within 30 yds with a .416 Rem. Mag.

So even though I've shot my share of big game, they have almost been shot within a couple of hundred yards. Now I am trying to get some info from hunters who have killed big game at 400 - 600 yards. That's a very different kind of hunting at which I have no experience at all. As for soliciting only experienced opinions, that was to minimize the ever-present "know-it-alls" that offer up their expert advice on topics which they know nothing at all. BTW In hunting vernacular, its jumbo or ellie. Dumbo lives only in Disnyland or Walt Disney World (and in the minds of tree-huggers).

IMHO you are stretching the ranges for the 308. I'd say at best its a 300-400 yard rifle for deer sized game. Jump above that and I'd be much happier with a 300 mag or larger.

Just my opinion.

And recall that a properly built rifle, there is not much if any difference between a "sniper" rifle(whatever the hell that is) and a hunting rifle, other than a few pounds or more.

The mags give you more energy, ability to efficiently use heavier bullets, and a bit more room for error on wind drift and drops at mid ranges like you want to shoot.

As you well know it won't be the rifle that makes it possible to handily take a mid range shot effectively, it will be thousands of rounds downrange each year.

Go to punching paper and the 308 is fine out to 600-1000 yards.

I'm editing to add the fact that folks seem to think the 308 is the "sniper" round for a reason. It is with the military and that carries over to the civilians many times. LE uses it because the military perfected the rifles and ammo and it works. The military used it because in a pinch you can grab linked M60 ammo Etc.... and still have a functional weapon. Try that with your 300 Win, 6.5x284 or my 338/300 RUM rounds. Given a choice I suspect that most folks would choose a better round for longer distance shooting. Sorry for the soapbox but I wanted to better explain why the 308 round was picked-- even though its not ideal.

Jeff

I appreciate the comments Jeff. There is a tendency for todays military snipers to go toward the larger caliber rounds (I beleive the 300 Win Mag and the .50 Cal are now the military sniping rounds of choice). If I were to buy a new rifle just for long range hunting of deer/elk, etc, it would definitely be a 300 Win. Mag.

The popularity of the .308, although kicked off by the fact that it was the defacto NATO round for a number of years, is that much money time and effort has been involved in developing bullets, loads, and sniper scopes especially calibrated to maximize long range effectiveness on human targets. (Not to mention it's relatively mild recoil as opposed to the 300 Mags, 338 Lapua Mags, and .50 cals.

Many experienced military snipers think the .308's effective limit on humans is about 700 yards. (BTW most LE sniping is done at less than a 100yards with 80 yards the norm). Using that rule of thumb, I felt (that with the proper bullet) 600 yds would be about the effective limit on deer-sized game.

You are right in that the line between hunting rifles and sniper rifles are starting to blur in some areas. Most sniping rifles are designed to have MOA or better accuracy, with a bedding system that is designed to consistently produce that accuruacy despite variations in weather or altitude. When combined with the proper scope, range finder, and ammunition, you have a tool with a lot of potential for consistent long range hits.

But as you stated, being ability to utilize that tool requires a lot of practise at long range shooting, and you must match the right bullet to the game and the yardage. That is the hard part. Again thanks for the comments.

I have killed everything I've shot at, including kudu, zebra and a few deer with a 308 and Barnes bullets. My current favorite is the 165 XLC.

I really cannot imagine a better all around cartridge and bullet combination.

I have just purchased a 308 Win built by Homer Strickland of Accuracy Arms in Anchorage. I can hardly wait to top it with a good Leupold, and start developing loads.

Since deer are about the same size as men, I would find it hard to believe the 700 yard rule does not apply equally to deer.

In combat you do not have to kill your target to be successful. Unless I'm missing something, gut shooting a deer a 700 meters would be deemed unsuccessful by most.

I wont list experience in order to keep snide remarks at a minimum.
With that:
#1 definately go with Barnes 165 TSX or similar premium bullet if you plan on long range shots at deer.
#2 while some have had good results with the 308 on larger game I would not use it for bear or elk much past 250. granted USMC scout snipers are getting the proverbial
"1 shot/1kill" past 1000 yds. but these shots are not made on game animals deserving respect. Plus "muj" is no where near as tough to take down as an elk or a bear.
for long range on larger animals the 300 Win or larger is the better way to go. IMHO

I have shot several ( 4 to be exact ) deer with my .308 using 150 grain Nosler BT's out past 300 yards. Two were close to 400. I know this because they were all standing in the shooting lane of our club where we had metal gongs set up for practice. All were does - and weighed about 100 lbs. In each case I was sure of the range to the target and I was able to shoot off the bench. That is the only reason I took the shots. All were solid, double lung hits. All four deer were recovered.
Having said that, from what I learned from that experience I do not think I would try for elk much past 250 yards using my .308. There are better calibers much better suited for that task.

I have not looked at the ballistic tables but I suspect a .308 out at 500 yards has less energy than a .30-30 at 200, and 200 is stretching a .30-30 on big deer.

Thanks for the replies. I guess I will try the 165 TSX to see how my rifle digests them.

I agree that a .300 Win Mag would be a better long range elk rifle. Some rifle nut/elk hunters claim you need around 1800 ft/lbs of energy at whatever yardage you plan on hitting your elk. That being said, I don't know of too many people who would question the effectiveness of .44 Rem. Mag on an elk or moose at 50 yards, but if your get 800 ft/lbs of energy with that cartridge at 50 yards, your probably doing pretty good.
Remington's catalog shows their .308 still retaining about 1600 to 1700 ft/lbs at 300 yards. So I wouldn't dismiss the .308 as a 300 yard elk cartridge (again it wouldn't be my first choice, but it's what I have).

Being able to hit the right spot with the right bullet may be equally (or more) important in my opinion.

Again thanks for the input and I'll let you know how my hunts turn out.

BTW The Remington catalog shows .30/.30 at around 900 ft/lbs at 200 yards, the .308 is still kicking around 1000 to 1200 ft/lbs at 500 yards.

Buff hunter, I will throw in my experience as well. I truly love long range killing of critters. Premium bullets, especially Barnse bullets in a .308 are a big time no no for long range. They simply WILL NOT expand at 350+ yards when shot out of a .308. For closer shots under 300 yards, they are fine, but you want a bullet that will ALWAYS expand at 300+ at .308 ballistics. My choice for many years has been the 165 and 180 grain ballistic tips. Guys that poo poo this bullet have little or no experience with it at longer rangers, in .308/.30-06 class rounds. The ballistic tips don't explode on impact and hasn't for many years, as long as you don't go with the light weights (125-150 grain). I have killed moose, deer (tons) and several elk with the 165 grain ballistic tips from 30 yards to 550. ALL have been dead right now, most with exit holes, all with HUGE wound channels. These were all out of a short barreled .30-06 at 2,750 fps (.308 ballistics). Several deer bit the fish at over 550 yards with bang flop results. The .308 is very capable out to a max of 600 yards on deer sized game. I wouldn't push elk past 400 with the .308. You are asking a lot of a smaller round at that range. Elk are not people, people are MUCH easier to kill. Hit an elk in the leg and he will run and "usually" live. Hit a human in the leg and he is down for the count crying for momma. Practice practice practice at long range. You can't simply look at a chart, read your range finder and make a shot. Don't depend on charts to tell you what your bullet is doing. You HAVE to actually go shoot at those ranges in field conditions. Flinch

CL,

I would think the object of shooting old muj is to "bring a world of hurt to those most deserving". Roger Out.

Flinch,

Thanks for your input. I fully realize that I will have to be able to make a good shot on any critter at 350+ yards to be effective. A gut shot deer/elk/bear at 450 yards, it not much different that a gut shot deer/elk/beer at 45 yard IMO.

It's interesting that you think the ballistic tip is better at long range (in those calibers) than the barnes. Although I've only used barnes solid (elephant and cape buff), I've used the Swift A-frames on buff and it does seem to make some sense that a bullet that opens up grudingly (i.e. holds together at 30 or 40 yards might not open up at all at long ranges and subsequent diminished energy/velocity). That's give me something to ponder.

I guess, I will try an shoot both and see which one is the most accurate with my scope/rifle and use that combination. Because (unless the bullet fails to penetrate) where you hit them is (IMO) the most important factor of all.

There is a Chinese proverb "Often people doing something, are interrupted by people telling them that what they are doing is impossible."

I guess I will go out this year and limit myself to 500 yards for bear (didn't get drawn for a deer) and 350-400 yards for an elk (of course if I see the granddaday of all elk or an interesting color phase of a bear, I will whack them at a closer range if that so presents itself).

I will let all of you know the results (even it it's hunted 15 days and never saw sh-t). LOL

"To hunt, to bathe, this is to live" from an ancient Mesopotamian carving.

gg

I wouldn't know. I don't gut shoot. I shoot to kill.

Hello David,

You obviously get the idea. I would have to dislike someone very much to deliberately gut shoot them. I have way too much respect for deer and elk (not to sure about bear though).

I actually did deliberately gut-shoot a cape buff one time. But in Zimbabwe the trackers are so good that you are certain to get another chance at killing the animal (not so here in the US). Even then, I felt guilty and quickly finished off the animal.

Jamison-Is that a GA Precision stick in your antelope photo?
Sako

Its a Longshot Rifles built stick. Chris Matthews owns Longshot Rifles, but he also is one of the smiths at GA, hence the Rockish appearance.