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Yep now that the back slapping and whooping and chest beating is out in the open you just chip shot yourself into the
class A***hole executive lounge.
Good one...But you still hav'nt answered my ?Where does hunting stop and shooting start for you???

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As I have already stated.......you have managed to get or have waited for the animal to come into the zone inside which the animal would perceive danger ( if it knew you were there ) that takes hunting skill and landcraft.

thats it period.....I have never once said it does not take skill to shot a animal at long range, not once, and it puts food on the table agreed.
Call yourselves hunters if you want (you 'aint) but deep down you know the difference between someone who can put the sneak on a animal and outwit them by fieldcraft and those who unload the benchrest from the truck and shoot.
I think you need to reality check your version and definition of a "hunter" than that held by the vast majority of people let alone shooters et al. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
BTW.....what is your opinion of gutshot animals?

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.......you have managed to get or have waited for the animal to come into the zone inside which the animal would perceive danger
At what range would that be???
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Call yourselves hunters if you want
Thats what we are...We just shoot farther thats all
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and those who unload the benchrest from the truck and shoot.
Sorry bud...Don't use a bench
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I think you need to reality check your version and definition of a "hunter" than that held by the vast majority of people let alone shooters et al.
Right now the "VAST MAJORITY" just seems to be 'YOU"

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Well boyd its kinda like this.....read this real sloooow so it goes in,I wouldn't expect loads of back up on what people think of you and your ilk,given that I am posting on the Loooong range forum the comments you and others have been making....."gut shooting" "chip shots" match bullets for hunting etc. probably leave such a bad taste in the mouth of everyone else they probably dont drop by here often.
It is plainly obvious that you will insist on calling what you do hunting and also obvious that you wont answer any of the things I have asked off you.
Having hunted yes...hunted <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> all over the world I can tell you the ability to know and get close to your target animal is most often highly regarded.
Shooting it at extreme ranges well .....thats just shooting at long range skilled for sure but NOT hunting <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
now if you would care to answer my questions that you have been avoiding <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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I will answer your gut shot ? tomorrow....Gotta hit the sack

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...Gotta hit the sack


What range are we talking here ? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

just kidding !! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

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Thor222(thats too small to hunt deer with....)

What do I think of gut shots. Well I think they are misplaced. Impacts that did not go where they are intended.

Those animals are very easy to find if you have any experience in the woods though.

And yep I've done it. Funny part is its done much more than most folks will admit and at ranges mostly way under what you are probably predicting.

FWIW we have liberal deer seasons, limits and I've been hunting since a kid and guided hunters for quite a bit of time on a ranch where we were required to harvest over 300 deer a year. Therefore I've seen results of a lot of shots.

Whats your point on gutshots-- I actually did not roll this thread backwards to see.


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..........how you acomplish this does not change the fact that it is still hunting
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

yep just as I said...if you haven't got it by now you probably wont ever. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Thor222


It seems that you are the one that doesn't get it. You simple want to impose your views on everyone else with no other critiera other than your views and or opion.With the epuipment of today 500 yard shots are not only possiable but relitively easy if you know what you are doing



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I wasn't going to post anything here as I am FAR from being a long-range hunter. I don't have the equipment, skill, desire, or need to try and shoot anything over 300 yards, mostly under 100 anyway. However, I have followed this post on and off and have a few things to add. A fellow interested in this subject posted a question, a valid question at a place that he felt that experienced people could help him out. Fortunately, guys like Jamison and Boyd Heaton(there are others,sorry if I forgot your name) that have the experience and the generosity to help this fellow out. I have no desire or business trying any of these long range shots on game but that doesn't mean that folks with the equipment,skill, and dicipline should abandon the idea. When legal, I'm not the one to tell people how to hunt or what hunting is in general. I think that nowadays its safe to say that most folks hunt out of enjoyment than necessity(sp?). Of course folks eat the meat that came from animals they killed, but they could've just as well went to the local grocery store and got it. That said, "challenging" hunting for lack of a better word seems to be a popular item. There are many folks that hunt with a bow, muzzleloader, handgun, and hunt long range style. Since the terrain I live and hunt in typically offers close range hunting for deer, I hunt with bow and handgun a good deal. I've chosen a challenging way of hunting that I like, is practical for my hunting environments, and that I'm competent in. I tip my hat to you long range guys since I know from limited experience that it takes discipline and dedication to be able to make these long range shots. I doubt very seriously that I'll ever get into long range hunting, but if a hunter chooses so and does it proficiently then more power to them. Good hunting this year everyone.


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High Brass--Thanks for your opinion, as I believe it is the opinion of most hunters out there. I also "short range" hunt with rifles and handguns, as well as being an avid bowhunter. I like to think that I can handle whatever shot is presented, as long as I have the correct equipment on hand. I have taken big game animals from powder burn range out to around 850 yds and varmints out to over 1300 yds, so I have a little experience. I don't shoot competition anymore, as my job as a firearms instructor pretty well keeps me busy. I wouldn't wanna get burned out... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

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I will answer your gut shot ? tomorrow....Gotta hit the sack
I watched a short range hunter a few years back putting on a chase for some guys.Unload his trusty turdy-turdy at a small group of deer he just kicked up.Keep in mind I am 700+ yards away from this "hunter" watching through my big eyes.We had watched these deer come up the point at first light and bed down in a thicket by the way.One of the deer was hit high in the right rear quarter and the exit was low on the left side through the last rib.The 2nd deer hit had a right front leg busted off just below the knee.Both deer made it around the point out of the "hunters" sight.The hunter then sat down fired up a "non" filtered cig.Smoked it.Then got up walked down the point,away from the deer about 100 yards.Now about 20 minutes have gone by.Both deer are bedded down no more than 300 yards to the right of this guy.My hands were tied.We watched both deer for another 20 or so minutes until the "hunter" left the hill.To answer your ?.Gut shots happen.I watched the gut shot deer above for close to an hour.Was'nt pretty.We finished both deer with one shot a piece...After getting both deer out we stopped at the camp where the "SO CALLED" hunter was out of.Ask him why he did'nt go after the deer.He told me he had'nt shot anything.When I showed him the video we had taken of himself shooting and wounding both deer.He told us if we did'nt leave he was gonna call the cops..In fact we turned him in for not making an attempt to find the deer he wounded... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

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"A fellow interested in this subject posted a question, a valid question at a place that he felt that experienced people could help him out."

they also failed to comment on his deliberste gut shooting of a animal.

"Whats your point on gutshots-- I actually did not roll this thread backwards to see."

I suggest you do and read about buff hunter claiming to have deliberately gut shot a Buffalo from 30 yards,I personally think this is BS,yet surprisingly for all you experienced "hunters" out there not 1 commented about BH doing so to 1 of the dangerous 5 in africa...so as I said naive?..whos kidding who.

"since I know from limited experience that it takes discipline and dedication to be able to make these long range shots."

never claimed otherwise you will find,just that long range shooting 'aint hunting.

"When I showed him the video we had taken of himself shooting and wounding both deer.He told us if we did'nt leave he was gonna call the cops..In fact we turned him in for not making an attempt to find the deer he wounded... "

To put it simply good for you,the guy was no hunter just a slob who shouldn't have a gun.

I can see we have reached a impasse regarding this,If I had the hardware available,and had practiced enough,I might have a go at taking a long range shot myself....the one thing I wouldn't do when sitting in my den sipping a nice single malt and looking admiringly at the mount on the wall was delude myself that I had hunted anything....there is a world of difference.
So the next time you are about to drop the hammer on a animal 800+ yards away,ponder this am I hunting here? and why is the animal not bothered by my clowns outfit and the flashing light on top of my head?
I will leave it at that then.
good luck in your future long range shooting.
sincerley Thor222

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Thor and High Brass:

I suspect you are both through commenting. I did not have time to roll back. Let me just say that if someone gut shot something on purpose that the best thing that could happen is reciprocity.

Those shots happen, not on purpose, but happen all the time.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here. Neither of you 2 and I'll include myself, can draw a solid line as to differences. This debate can go on forever. Let me put in a few deeply personal thoughts that may help add to the comment. I speak not for everyone. I speak for myself. I am a bowhunter from way back. IMHO bowhunting is real hunting. I don't think that pistol hunting is challenging. Anyone can kill one at 100 yards with iron sights and a pistol. Anyone can kill at 200 with a scope. MZ don't do anything either. Easy out to 300 yards. My buddy thats not a shooter took a muley at 218 last fall with my MZ. CF rifles are not hunting either. There is nothing to a shot out to 300-400 for me. 500-600 gets interesting and I start to have to put effort back into it.

Now I'll go to the point to say that its the effort that interests me and qualifies the statement hunting. It takes skill and effort. Its not sitting in a blind waiting out a deer feeder with sandbags and a rifle at 75 yards. That can't be challenging. It might qualify as hunting to you. To me its simply harvesting.

Which is what you call our LR shooting. Not hunting. But harvesting or shooting. I can maybe grant you that. But then again if you aren't a bowhunter then you arent' truly hunting to me either.

So you see, as said a long time ago, its in the eye of the beholder.

Again I fail to see how we can continue to waste time getting hung on the word hunting. It has nothing to do with ethics or legality.

I will add that as a competitive shooter-- folks that are dedicated shooters like Boyd and a few others that I'll never hold a candle to, these folks are a cut above the average joe hunter. Boyds gut shot reply is a prime example. They were not there simply to shoot. But to "hunt" and target a specific animal. They chose the terms of the hunt. Instead they do what other hunters should complete and then continue it on to its final and correct end. Most out there would ignore.

I'm afraid you may have never taken a hunter education course in which our state mandates us as instructors, to talk about the evolution of the hunter. Picking the weapon of choice and terms of the hunt means you have evolved to the top. You are not out for the kill only. But the parameters you set are much more stringent than the average joe.

I fail to see that you are condemning LR hunters. Yet you continue to be hung up on a 7 letter word.

You pick yours, we'll pick ours. Personally I support your choices. And I expect you to support mine. It's very similar to those hunters that agree with some forms of gun control. IE we don't need assault weapons. Its what I shoot, I'm good at it, I don't do any harm. So why don't you support me. Cause you need me to support your pistol or deer rifle if the time comes.

I did take time to sit at the computer today and use dogpile for a LONG time researching the word hunting. No where could I find that there was a weapon parameter, size parameter, distance parameter etc... Which is what I expected. My choices end with the same result as yours do.

What is a pity, to me anyway, is that we are expected to agree with your views and abandon ours. While the correct way is for us to support your hunting and you support ours. Amigo.

Jeff


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From thor:

suggest you do and read about buff hunter claiming to have deliberately gut shot a Buffalo from 30 yards,I personally think this is BS,yet surprisingly for all you experienced "hunters" out there not 1 commented about BH doing so to 1 of the dangerous 5 in africa...so as I said naive?..whos kidding who.

_________________________________________________

Duh! Make up your mind bubba! First you lambast me on mutiple posts for my comment of deliberately shooting a buff to provoke a charge. Then, many posts later, you state you beleive it is all BS. Are you forgetting to take your meds or what?

For the record, I did deliberately shoot a buff a to wound it and provoke a charge. I hit it a little low and a little far back. Study your "Pefect Shot" book and you will see that I probably clipped its liver. That way the buff is pissed, has complete structural use of its body and leaves a good blood trail for the trackers. I also stated that I felt guilty when the buff didn't respond immediately and then I hit it twice where I should have the first time and it died after about a 10 yard charge.

Is that a nice thing to do. Hell no. Are buffalo nice when they get a chance to take out people, lions, etc. Hell no. I don't like anything to suffer needlessly (except maybe for my enemies). I quit duck hunting and bird hunting, even though I have a good friend who has access to some of the best pheasant and quail country in Colorado, because I got tired of killing birds and finding old wounds and pellets in them. Those birds (IMO) survive and suffer for months.

Ask any PH, and they will tell you that a "gut shot" animal will be dead within a week, even quicker if there are lions and such around.

At least, I was going to give the buff a chance to stomp my ass before he died. Maybe that is not your cup of tea, but I make no apologies. The only real regret I have is the fact that I might have put the PH and tracker in a dangerous situation.

But that has absolutely nothing to do with long-range hunting. Nothing.

The object of long range hunting is to make a one-shot, clean kill at the longest range you feel confident. Blazing away at an animal you jump at 20 yards, hoping against hope, to break something, is far worse IMO, than placing a controlled shot at a known range, with a rifle/cartridge combination that you have shot repeatedly at those same ranges.

A cool shot at long range, can certainly be more deadly than an excited nimrod blasting away at more moderate ranges without any idea of where his bullets are going to land at those ranges.

Having said that, I believe thor that you are a fake and a coward. In every post that asks you direct questions, you always reply with generalities, emotion, and name-calling, but no facts. You stated you have hunted around the world. My question is for what? KY jelly for you and your boyfriend?

There are a lot of good, decent, experienced hunters on this forum, who try to be helpful and honest. You seem to be nothing but a malcontent, trying to stir up trouble.

If you are an experienced hunter, than why don't you provide us some examples of your experience, rather than bad-mouthing people who have been there and done that?

To the rest of you, I apologize for the tirade, because that is not what this board is about. Again, thanks for the helpful advice, and I will let you know how my hunt (only 2 more weeks) turns out.

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For the record, I did deliberately shoot a buff a to wound it and provoke a charge...... A+ grade a**hole

Is that a nice thing to do. Hell no.........I don't like anything to suffer needlessly (except maybe for my enemies)........Please refer to above..errrr but you did gut shooter A+ AGAIN

Ask any PH, and they will tell you that a "gut shot" animal will be dead within a week, even quicker if there are lions and such around......Only a week of suffering needlessly if the buff had run off,not so bad really then A++ AWARDED

I make no apologies. The only real regret I have is the fact that I might have put the PH and tracker in a dangerous situation.......Firstly if the PH condoned that then A+ to him,if not then if they whipped you black and blue you would have deserved it A++ Awarded

The object of long range hunting is to make a one-shot, clean kill..........indeed any hunting DUH!! read above for what you actually did A++ Awarded

There are a lot of good, decent, experienced hunters on this forum.......Agreed there are indeed,I dont count you amongst them however <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

If you are an experienced hunter, than why don't you provide us some examples of your experience, rather than bad-mouthing people who have been there and done that.......been there and done what exactly?...deliberately cause suffering to a animal?...no thanks its always my aim for 1 quick shot kills <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

To the rest of you, I apologize for the tirade.......to the rest of the forum, you have been revealed for what you are. [/quote]

ok BH thats it,but I hope some day that your gut shooting antics repay you.....them big AK kodiaks rip a mean hole.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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You still never answered anyone's questions.

As for what I am. Hunting is a blood sport. Accept it.

Just like bull-fighting, dog-fighting, and cock-fighting.

Just as you don't deliberately hurt the weak (i.e. deer, elk, rabbits, quail, etc.), pissing off dangerous game (i.e. animals that are fully capable of taking you out), is something else altogether.

The only hunters I disrespect are the cowards that have the PHs shoot their elephants (Oh, I just can't see it!), or look for a hidely hole when they muff a shot on a buff, because they are too scared.

Killing a dangerous (but unsuspecting) animal with one perfect shot is like hitting a 300 lb biker in the head with a lead pipe, when he isn't looking. Sure you accomplished your task. Is it noble? Are you giving him (or her) a fair chance?

Hell no. But walk up to him square and trade punches with him for 3 or 4 shots and you get an idea of what living on the edge is all about. (Not to mention pissing blood for 3 days).

So from your self-rightous perch, instead of squawking about what a horrible person I am, tell us what you've done that makes you such a supreme know-it-all hunter.

My guess, is we'll get no details, just hyper-bole.

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WTF??


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Rost..I do not know what the hell that was about either....very random...


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Still trying to make sense of that post...

Buff are you saying that every animal you harvest you make sure that they know you are there?....and if you do let the animal know you are there only then is this giving him a fair chance? So us hunters only get a true experience by pissing an animal off and "trading shots" with it for 3 or 4 times.....WTF!!.....buddy I think you got it all mixed up somewhere down the line and that is being very nice....


- Greg

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buffhumper, why do you even take a gun? It would be more realistic and put you closer to nature if you used your testosterone dripping fists and feet. Then, and only then, you would be able to trade, blow for blow, equally....... You'll get yours!!!!!!! 721

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