Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting .308 sniper rifle for deer/elk/bear.

gicts:

I am sorry what was the question? LOL

Don't know if you made it to the General Hunting forum, but I've just about got a war going on over there with Morality of Hunting thread. For some reason, no one can get past the "gut shooting a buff" thing and get on with thread. Must be my natural charm.

Buffhunter-------If long range hunting is within your parameters, more power to you. Fifty years ago I also was pretty fair with a Springfield. You must understand where many of the posters on this forum are coming from....Many of us were taught from a very early age that it was an honor to be able to hunt. It was drummed into us that the animals we hunted deserved a humane and relatively painless termination and should not be made to suffer. Many of us passed this on to our children and they will pass it to theirs. I know that as soon as you made that first shot on the buffalo that you probably felt badly about it, for I would suspect that the persons who raised you, also injected the same things most of us were taught..good luck to you....

superhornet:

Thanks for the well wishes! Friday I am backpacking alone up into some prime elk country for an entire week and I'm going to tote that heavy gun up and try my best to make a good, one-shot kill.

.I will let you know how it turns out.

A couple of comments:

A heavy barreled .308 sniper rifle is a pretty stupid choice for long range shots at game. Do yourself a favor and get a real long range cartridge in a lighter rifle.

Those posters who say they can hit pie plates at 300 yards, all the time, not once in awhile, offhand have probably never tried it. If you can do that, come up to Camp Perry. There's a good chance you'll win the national offhand championship.

Indy:

You are not one for mincing words, hey?

Back in my youth, I humped an M60 through some really nasty jungle. I'm older now, but I still think I can haul the thing up the mountain. I've already spent a week bear hunting with it and it is not fun to carry (makes my M70 Win African in .416 Rem Mag seem like a 5 pounder), but I will get by.

As far as the 300 yd off-hand posters, I generally give people the benefit of the doubt when it don't cost me nothing.

Can't argue with you philosophy though (Life is short. Hunt hard).

BTW The .308 in question came to me by way of a good friend who died of lung cancer last April. I told his wife (widow) I would try and bag something with it in his memory.

Indy,

I will follow your tone here...

You're being and idiot! Have you ever hunted long range? Do you know anything about it?
you may know how to shoot long range hell anyone can throw lead. But before you take your foot out of your mouth think about what you say.

A heavy barrel 308 is more than suitable to take deer sized game at 700 yards. I know cause I have. I also know several others who combined have taken 100's of animals past 500 with a heavy barrel 308!
If you think I am BS'ing about the pie plate at 300 I have witness'. Pay for my expenses to Camp Perry and my time away from my business and I'll be glad to come.
I think it is funny that all the competition guys think they are the only ones who can shoot. I have my own range at my home from 0-3500 yards. But that doesn't mean I feel the need to compete. It also doesn't fit into my schedule with my business. I shoot when time allows . That's why I built my own range.
I just completed 2 weeks of hunting with a heavy barreled rifle. Your comment about them being stupid shows your knowledge of accurate shooting.

C'ya

I have seen WYOWHISPER shoot and my opion is that he is a pretty dam good shot also what is wrong with a 308

"A heavy barreled .308 sniper rifle is a pretty stupid choice for long range shots at game. Do yourself a favor and get a real long range cartridge in a lighter rifle."

I am new to this forum, but here is my 2 cents worth (for whatever it is worth):

I don't shoot at moving animals, when the wind is up, or off-hand, but the cartridges that have 308 performance in rifles (in .264 to .308) will cleanly take deer sized animals out to 600 yards (my experience). The weight of my rigs is noticeably less than a varmint barreled rifle and I use a 284 parent case or above. But, since I use a specialty handguns (XP-100's) my MV's are lower for a given cartridge in a rifle length barrel.
These shots were made rests with a BR type stability out of guns that will outshoot the majority of over the counter rifles.
Basically, BR rigs being used in the field. It is not shooting for the sake of trying, but intentional shooting with complete expectation you will cleanly take your animal with one shot (or you do not shoot).
It involves practice in shooting at those distances from field positions. In fact, I typically use my hunting loads for PD shooting so I can get use to my rig.
Just because you don't understand it, or at the present time are unable to do it (or it is just not for you), don't doubt the motives or abilities of the men who spend great amounts of time, money, and education to hunt and shoot at this level.

AMEN!

WyoWhisper,

When I got to the range to fireform brass for my .220 Extremist, I noticed some fellows had put up a 15" gong at 400 yards. They were shooting at it from the bench with their hunting rifles. Occationally one of the shots would hit it.

Since, like you, I used to have my own range and did lots of off hand shooting, I decided to shoot at the gong. Because I have shot this same rifle with fireforming loads many times I knew where to aim. I turned the 6-24X scope to about 16X and shot the box of reloads. There were only four or five misses out of the twenty shots. Sue called me a show off. I was just having fun.

I have won the wife and I our fair share of "dinners on me" because of some guy who opened his mouth before he should have.. hehehe .... but it is all in good fun...

Indy is right on the offhand part of it. BUT the 308 round is great for tons of uses. Shooting animals either 2 or 4 legged with it has been done for decades out to 600 and beyond with no problems.

Now as to hitting a pie plate at 300 from a position other than offhand, if ya can't do that..... well you need more practice. That should be a chip shot with practice. Unfortunately I suspect that most "hunters" and lots that post here take more time typing and less shooting. I can remember before learning and practicing being amazed at 200 yard shots. Now I have a MZ that will shoot deer at 300 with no problems.

Jeff

As stated, the 308 Win is a praticularly versatile and useful cartridge. In the hands of someone special, it will score kills on a broad range of game animals. At the ranges mentioned here (500-600 yds) and with proper 162-180 grain bullets, it has an optimum game weight use for clean kills on 300-400 lbs of animal. Are there exceptions, yes.

A couple of my good hunting fraternity are trophy hunters, and you would never see them walking into a hunt with shots out at 500 plus yards with a 308 Win. Trophy hunting is a bit of a different game as most use the flattest trajectory with the heaviest bullet for wind bucking ability they can find, all the while maintaing tremendous energy for clean kills with lethal penetration. These guys shoot custom built and barreled various 7mm STW, 7mm RUM, 338-378 Wby and 338 RUM. The 338s are by far the best at delivering the complete package on big animals at extreme range (600-700 yrds). For mule deer and antelope, the big sevens produce lighter recoil then 30 mags and deliver big hits with laser beam trajectories.

The feat of killing a mature bull elk cleanly at 600 yards (Which is trophy hunting range by the way) with a 308 Win is far less likely than one who shoots one of the various 7 mags from that distance or better yet any 338 mag.

Activities such as this one are all about probability, one usually increases the odds in their favor as best they can.

The reason I use the word "stupid" to describe the choice of a .308 for long range shooting or hunting is that there are about 30 calibers which are easily better choices.

A 30-06 is a far better choice. It has a flatter trajectory and bucks the wind better.

A .300 magnum is better still.

Then there are calibers like .270 and the 7mms. Why shoot some wimpy .308 168 grain bullet at 2600 fps (or a 155 grain at 2950 with a 32" barrel) when you can easily get 3200 fps or so with a better BC bullet?

The .308 never (I mean NEVER) wins long range championships at Camp Perry except for a few matches where it is the only allowed caliber. It's a bummer.

As for heavy barrels, I concede, if what you are really doing is shooting game from a bench rest, as opposed to carrying the rifle up the mountains. But at least get a heavy barreled rifle in a decent long range caliber.

Of course, if a certain .308 has "sentimental value," that's something else.

Don't argue with me about the .308. Just look at any ballistics tables.

Here's why I think many (not all) of you long range guys are all wet.

I currently own four "heavy barreled" rifles--two .308s, one 30-06, and one new Tubb2K in 6mmXC caliber, which rifle and caliber currently win the long range championships at Camp Perry.

I regularly shoot these rifles in 600 yard matches. Prone. Slow fire. From a tight sling. The range is known exactly. My sights are pre-adjsuted for that exact range. I have previously fired on the same firing point. I get all the time in the world to prepare. The target never moves and is a big black circle on a white background. There are nice big range flags to help me judge the wind. Between shots I watch mirage through an 82mm spotting scope to catch faint wind changes. I even can ask the guy who shoots ahead of me how many minutes of windage he used. I also know exactly where each shot hits because a guy in the pits puts a big white spotter disk in the target. And I get five sighter shots before shooting for score.

With all these advantages, I can shoot far better than people who merely hunt at similar ranges, not because I am a better shot, but because I have eliminated many variables.

Here's the point.

On several occasions, I have put all five sighters in the X-ring, which measures 6" in diameter at 600 yards.

But on other occasions, the first shot has been a 9.

That's enough to wound a deer instead of killing it, which is why I don't shoot at deer that far away.

I know of many cases where so-called experienced hunters grossly overestimate ranges, especially in the West. Did I tell you about the running pronghorn I killed, offhand, at 600 yards? My guide said it was 600. It was actually maybe 200, and I would not have fired at all exept it was already wounded. It was running directly away. Even then there was probably a good dose of luck involved.

If I were going to maximize the .308 for big game hunting out to 600 yards I'd look real hard at developing a load with Nosler's 200gr Accubond (BC .588) A little number crunching with quickload indicates 2600 fps MV is doable via a 26" barrel. With a proven load, practice, a laser rangefinder, and enough sense to pass on iffy wind conditions, this load could deliver an honest 1500 ft-lbs at 600 yards.

ok.. I get tired of this holier than thou crap.. but here goes...

Camp Perry isn't God's Proving grounds, it is a controlled environment and you know exactly what is gonna happen.. I have more respect for a guy who can go into unknown conditions and still hit his intened target with one shot.. thats what we as lr hunters strive to do.. thats why we practice in all conditions..
umm we usually hunt with a partner and he is constantly ranging the target. we have dope charts for our rifles, if not a handhelp ballistic comp. that has our rifle/load data in it.. and you can change the input data to match conditions where you are. Wind flags nope we have grass, trees, leaves, dust.. and wind meters.. we learn what all these things do in all types of wind so we can identify the wind speed.. and wind direction all the way to the target.
I passed on a few shots at 886 yards this year.. the wind wouldn't stay consisitient and settle for me so I passed.
I did however conect on an Atelope at 660 yards one shot right through the heart.. I had 3 witness' my hunting partner and I laid in the sage grass for over an hour until the right conditions and right opporuntiy was there.
LR hunters just don't go out an start throwing lead.. the real serious ones spend just as much time as you practicing and fine tuning.
Quite frankly I am tired of your camp perry crap.. it really means nothing to me as a hunter .. like I said it is a controlled environment.
If you would take the time to learn about how the sport of long range hunting and how it is done correctly you might have a different opinion of what is actually possible.

WW

FWIW I shoot or shot Perry quite a bit. With AR15 service rifle and iron sights only. Its one of the easiest ranges to shoot a perfect score at 600 yards. I've shot more than 1 or 2 perfect scores at 600 there. Not being able to shoot well there is only an indication that you are not at the top of your game YET.

You and I both know there are tons of variables. Also tons of clear indicators to clean shots. And we pick and choose as to if or when or where. This is not war where we HAVE to shoot. And at Camp Perry if we were given unlimited time(like we get in the field) then it would be even easier to shoot tiny knots at 600. Comparisons don't bode well against each other.

You also know, as I do, that responsible LR shooters fire one shot and make a clean kill percentage wise way more often that weekend warriors(I never used the word responsible here) ever will at even 100 yards.

Point through this whole thread should be, we know we are capable and you will too, WHEN the time comes. No one should just go out and click and shoot. In fact the first thing I found out in competition is that I could shoot well enough to reliably scare the crud out of a deer at 600. It took many barrels to get it to where I can kill one reliably at that range. Now add a scope to the factor and a flat accurate wind bucking rifle and tools of the trade..... Some folks will never get it. Most should never try it.

Jeff

Jeff, that's the best observation and point to take out of this whole danged thing.

Thanks,

"ok.. I get tired of this holier than thou crap.. but here goes..."

Don't get your dander up, WyoWhisper. Nobody is holier than thou. I have two points:

1. As EVERYONE KNOWS, it's easier to hit at 600 yards at Camp Perry than to hit game that far away. If a reasonably high percentage of good (Master class or higher) shooters cannot consistently hit the 10-ring on the first shot at Camp Perry, it's much more likely that they will wound a deer.

Maybe, just maybe, YOU won't, but we don't all have a 3500 yard range out the back door. What about the truly good long range shot (on the target fields) who pays $5000 to go hunt out West, and, on the fifth day of a five day hunt sees a good rack just a "little bit" out of his range?

2. If you are going to hunt at long range, why handicap yourself with a .308?