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I recently acquired a .308 Rem Police sniper rifle with a 4-14x56 Government Model II sniper scope. I plan on using it for black bear, deer, and maybe elk this fall. Using a good quality range finder, I would like to try to kill a bear at around 500yds, a deer at 600 yds, and maybe an elk at 400-450 yds.

Since the scope is calibrated to the Federal 168 grain match cartridge, what would you guys recommend for a hunting bullet that would exhibit identical ballistics, but better performance on game as the 168gr HPBT?

Experienced opinions only please. Thanks.

BTW I have killed several elk, one bear, and dozens of mule deer (not to mention 2 cape buffalo and an elephant with 110 lb of ivory) so I am not a novice hunter.

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For someone so skilled as to have taken "dozens" of big game including Dumbo, I find it hard to believe you need schooling on an appropriate bullet. Oh, I almost forgot "only experienced opinions please".

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I have killed several deer and antelope with my .308 Win in the last few years and I just used the 175 Sierra MatchKing in Federal GMM. I wouldn't hesitate to use this same load on a black bear. If I were going to kill BIG hogs or elk with this round, the 168 gr TSX would probably be my go-to bullet.
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This is my brother and his buck killed at 330 yds with my .308.
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This is my buck killed with the same rifle at 525 yds.

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The 165 Scirroco shoots to same POI as the Gameking in my 308 if that tells you anything.The Scirroco beats anything I've used as for as consistent performance at different impact velocities,but I confess to not having shot any of the game you mentioned atthe ranges you anticipate.I got other stuff that works better for that.


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Jamison, Gene,

Thanks for the info. I guess, I'll try out the 168 Scirroco and the TSX on the practice range and see how well they work with my scope/rifle combination.

Supertrucker??

Hmm! Well all of my of my elk (including a 6x7) were shot within a 100yds using .270 Win and .7mm Wby. My bear was killed at about 60 yds with a .7mm Wby. Most of my deer were shot within a 150 yds using .270 Win and .7mm Wby (I did kill one at around 200 yds with a .7mm Wby). I have also shot 3 or 4 antelope (longest shot about 250 yds) with a .7mm Wby. The 2 cape buffalo and elephant were all shot within 30 yds with a .416 Rem. Mag.

So even though I've shot my share of big game, they have almost been shot within a couple of hundred yards. Now I am trying to get some info from hunters who have killed big game at 400 - 600 yards. That's a very different kind of hunting at which I have no experience at all. As for soliciting only experienced opinions, that was to minimize the ever-present "know-it-alls" that offer up their expert advice on topics which they know nothing at all. BTW In hunting vernacular, its jumbo or ellie. Dumbo lives only in Disnyland or Walt Disney World (and in the minds of tree-huggers).

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IMHO you are stretching the ranges for the 308. I'd say at best its a 300-400 yard rifle for deer sized game. Jump above that and I'd be much happier with a 300 mag or larger.

Just my opinion.

And recall that a properly built rifle, there is not much if any difference between a "sniper" rifle(whatever the hell that is) and a hunting rifle, other than a few pounds or more.

The mags give you more energy, ability to efficiently use heavier bullets, and a bit more room for error on wind drift and drops at mid ranges like you want to shoot.

As you well know it won't be the rifle that makes it possible to handily take a mid range shot effectively, it will be thousands of rounds downrange each year.

Go to punching paper and the 308 is fine out to 600-1000 yards.

I'm editing to add the fact that folks seem to think the 308 is the "sniper" round for a reason. It is with the military and that carries over to the civilians many times. LE uses it because the military perfected the rifles and ammo and it works. The military used it because in a pinch you can grab linked M60 ammo Etc.... and still have a functional weapon. Try that with your 300 Win, 6.5x284 or my 338/300 RUM rounds. Given a choice I suspect that most folks would choose a better round for longer distance shooting. Sorry for the soapbox but I wanted to better explain why the 308 round was picked-- even though its not ideal.

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I appreciate the comments Jeff. There is a tendency for todays military snipers to go toward the larger caliber rounds (I beleive the 300 Win Mag and the .50 Cal are now the military sniping rounds of choice). If I were to buy a new rifle just for long range hunting of deer/elk, etc, it would definitely be a 300 Win. Mag.

The popularity of the .308, although kicked off by the fact that it was the defacto NATO round for a number of years, is that much money time and effort has been involved in developing bullets, loads, and sniper scopes especially calibrated to maximize long range effectiveness on human targets. (Not to mention it's relatively mild recoil as opposed to the 300 Mags, 338 Lapua Mags, and .50 cals.

Many experienced military snipers think the .308's effective limit on humans is about 700 yards. (BTW most LE sniping is done at less than a 100yards with 80 yards the norm). Using that rule of thumb, I felt (that with the proper bullet) 600 yds would be about the effective limit on deer-sized game.

You are right in that the line between hunting rifles and sniper rifles are starting to blur in some areas. Most sniping rifles are designed to have MOA or better accuracy, with a bedding system that is designed to consistently produce that accuruacy despite variations in weather or altitude. When combined with the proper scope, range finder, and ammunition, you have a tool with a lot of potential for consistent long range hits.

But as you stated, being ability to utilize that tool requires a lot of practise at long range shooting, and you must match the right bullet to the game and the yardage. That is the hard part. Again thanks for the comments.

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I have killed everything I've shot at, including kudu, zebra and a few deer with a 308 and Barnes bullets. My current favorite is the 165 XLC.

I really cannot imagine a better all around cartridge and bullet combination.

I have just purchased a 308 Win built by Homer Strickland of Accuracy Arms in Anchorage. I can hardly wait to top it with a good Leupold, and start developing loads.

Since deer are about the same size as men, I would find it hard to believe the 700 yard rule does not apply equally to deer.


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In combat you do not have to kill your target to be successful. Unless I'm missing something, gut shooting a deer a 700 meters would be deemed unsuccessful by most.



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I wont list experience in order to keep snide remarks at a minimum.
With that:
#1 definately go with Barnes 165 TSX or similar premium bullet if you plan on long range shots at deer.
#2 while some have had good results with the 308 on larger game I would not use it for bear or elk much past 250. granted USMC scout snipers are getting the proverbial
"1 shot/1kill" past 1000 yds. but these shots are not made on game animals deserving respect. Plus "muj" is no where near as tough to take down as an elk or a bear.
for long range on larger animals the 300 Win or larger is the better way to go. IMHO


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I have shot several ( 4 to be exact ) deer with my .308 using 150 grain Nosler BT's out past 300 yards. Two were close to 400. I know this because they were all standing in the shooting lane of our club where we had metal gongs set up for practice. All were does - and weighed about 100 lbs. In each case I was sure of the range to the target and I was able to shoot off the bench. That is the only reason I took the shots. All were solid, double lung hits. All four deer were recovered.
Having said that, from what I learned from that experience I do not think I would try for elk much past 250 yards using my .308. There are better calibers much better suited for that task.


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I have not looked at the ballistic tables but I suspect a .308 out at 500 yards has less energy than a .30-30 at 200, and 200 is stretching a .30-30 on big deer.

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Thanks for the replies. I guess I will try the 165 TSX to see how my rifle digests them.

I agree that a .300 Win Mag would be a better long range elk rifle. Some rifle nut/elk hunters claim you need around 1800 ft/lbs of energy at whatever yardage you plan on hitting your elk. That being said, I don't know of too many people who would question the effectiveness of .44 Rem. Mag on an elk or moose at 50 yards, but if your get 800 ft/lbs of energy with that cartridge at 50 yards, your probably doing pretty good.
Remington's catalog shows their .308 still retaining about 1600 to 1700 ft/lbs at 300 yards. So I wouldn't dismiss the .308 as a 300 yard elk cartridge (again it wouldn't be my first choice, but it's what I have).

Being able to hit the right spot with the right bullet may be equally (or more) important in my opinion.

Again thanks for the input and I'll let you know how my hunts turn out.

BTW The Remington catalog shows .30/.30 at around 900 ft/lbs at 200 yards, the .308 is still kicking around 1000 to 1200 ft/lbs at 500 yards.

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Buff hunter, I will throw in my experience as well. I truly love long range killing of critters. Premium bullets, especially Barnse bullets in a .308 are a big time no no for long range. They simply WILL NOT expand at 350+ yards when shot out of a .308. For closer shots under 300 yards, they are fine, but you want a bullet that will ALWAYS expand at 300+ at .308 ballistics. My choice for many years has been the 165 and 180 grain ballistic tips. Guys that poo poo this bullet have little or no experience with it at longer rangers, in .308/.30-06 class rounds. The ballistic tips don't explode on impact and hasn't for many years, as long as you don't go with the light weights (125-150 grain). I have killed moose, deer (tons) and several elk with the 165 grain ballistic tips from 30 yards to 550. ALL have been dead right now, most with exit holes, all with HUGE wound channels. These were all out of a short barreled .30-06 at 2,750 fps (.308 ballistics). Several deer bit the fish at over 550 yards with bang flop results. The .308 is very capable out to a max of 600 yards on deer sized game. I wouldn't push elk past 400 with the .308. You are asking a lot of a smaller round at that range. Elk are not people, people are MUCH easier to kill. Hit an elk in the leg and he will run and "usually" live. Hit a human in the leg and he is down for the count crying for momma. Practice practice practice at long range. You can't simply look at a chart, read your range finder and make a shot. Don't depend on charts to tell you what your bullet is doing. You HAVE to actually go shoot at those ranges in field conditions. Flinch


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CL,

I would think the object of shooting old muj is to "bring a world of hurt to those most deserving". Roger Out.

Flinch,

Thanks for your input. I fully realize that I will have to be able to make a good shot on any critter at 350+ yards to be effective. A gut shot deer/elk/bear at 450 yards, it not much different that a gut shot deer/elk/beer at 45 yard IMO.

It's interesting that you think the ballistic tip is better at long range (in those calibers) than the barnes. Although I've only used barnes solid (elephant and cape buff), I've used the Swift A-frames on buff and it does seem to make some sense that a bullet that opens up grudingly (i.e. holds together at 30 or 40 yards might not open up at all at long ranges and subsequent diminished energy/velocity). That's give me something to ponder.

I guess, I will try an shoot both and see which one is the most accurate with my scope/rifle and use that combination. Because (unless the bullet fails to penetrate) where you hit them is (IMO) the most important factor of all.

There is a Chinese proverb "Often people doing something, are interrupted by people telling them that what they are doing is impossible."

I guess I will go out this year and limit myself to 500 yards for bear (didn't get drawn for a deer) and 350-400 yards for an elk (of course if I see the granddaday of all elk or an interesting color phase of a bear, I will whack them at a closer range if that so presents itself).

I will let all of you know the results (even it it's hunted 15 days and never saw sh-t). LOL

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In combat you do not have to kill your target to be successful. Unless I'm missing something, gut shooting a deer a 700 meters would be deemed unsuccessful by most.


I wouldn't know. I don't gut shoot. I shoot to kill.


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Hello David,

You obviously get the idea. I would have to dislike someone very much to deliberately gut shoot them. I have way too much respect for deer and elk (not to sure about bear though).

I actually did deliberately gut-shoot a cape buff one time. But in Zimbabwe the trackers are so good that you are certain to get another chance at killing the animal (not so here in the US). Even then, I felt guilty and quickly finished off the animal.

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Jamison-Is that a GA Precision stick in your antelope photo?
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Its a Longshot Rifles built stick. Chris Matthews owns Longshot Rifles, but he also is one of the smiths at GA, hence the Rockish appearance.

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Roger on the Longshot. It definitely has Rock lines, hence my Q. Bonus hits next month along with my b-day. In the market for another stick and looking. A GAP is looking to be my choice.

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Buffhunter, did you bench press the ivory, too. Just poking a little fun at your name. If you have the skill to make a shot consistently, and I suspect you do, then no one should have a problem with wanting to shot something at long range. You have enough gun...I suggest a Barnes X Triple Shock for the pill. Obviously your odds of wounding an animal are increaing with the range. But, if you've got the skill and the tools I hope it works out. I'll look forward to seeing the story of you hunt in this thread next fall.

Pictures of you bench pressing the deer, bear or elk would be impressive.

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I'll have to concur with flinch that the triple shock is not the bullet for the .308 at extended range. The triple shock is a great bullet if you are going to be launching it out the muzzle at 3000 fps or more, and you keep the impact velocity at 2000 fps. In a .308, a 165 or 168 gr pill is doing at best 2800 fps from the muzzle, and I don't have any balistic charts with me, but believe out around 300 yds you'll be dropping below 2000 fps. If you go with a softer bullet such as a balistic tip, you'll still have a strong enough bullet for 2800 fps at th muzzle, and get reliable expansion down to about 1700 fps.

I think this is a backwards approach to a long range hunting rifle. First pick the bullet you want to use, then figure out what velocity you need at the longest range you expect to use that bullet, then look for a parent case to launch that bullet fast enough to get the desired terminal velocity at your max desired range.

I don't see the .308 being a 500 yd big game round. While there may be minimum power requirements for ideal shots in an ideal world, the real world presents situations in a slightly different manner. Better to have a bit more gun just in case.

I'd also say generally those with the skills for taking game at 500 yds don't need to ask questions about suitable equipment. They also would not choose a .308. If one can afford all the proposed hunts, then one could certainly afford a 300 magnum, and be much better served for the task at hand.

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They also would not choose a .308.

I would tend to disagree with that statement. While the .308 isn't the best round for long range, many guys have extensive experience with it (and the training and practice under their belts to make it work) because of LE or Military experience. The .308 is also extremely forgiving for beginners in the loading dept and in the recoil dept, which makes it even better than a .300 Win Mag under 600 because it so easy to shoot. I have take several big game animals cleanly at ranges to 605 yds with a .308 and wouldn't hesitate to use it again.

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Hagar,

Never thought of my posting name in that light! I was thinking more of "buff" as in cape buff (man I love to hunt those beasts), but I used to be able to field gut a medium-sized deer and strap in to a backpack and hike it out. Not anymore though, I never did care much for the taste of the bones and such, so a sharp knife make for a lighter load!

458lott:

As stated in an earlier post, I kind of "inherited" the .308, so I want to work with it to get the most out of it as a long range hunting rig. Truth is, if I can't reliably make 400-500 yards shots with the rifle/scope/cartridge combo, I won't attempt them. But I have control over that. What I can't control is bullet performance at long range and that's why I am soliciting advice from people who have used .308s on deer and elk at extended ranges. Again thanks for all the pratical info and advice.

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Quote

I'd also say generally those with the skills for taking game at 500 yds don't need to ask questions about suitable equipment. They also would not choose a .308. If one can afford all the proposed hunts, then one could certainly afford a 300 magnum, and be much better served for the task at hand.

Truer words were never spoken! I would pick a 338 Lapua if I needed to shoot elk or bear at long range. I don't know why I would need to though? If I took a 500 yard shot I would want a good tracking dog, (if it was legal) chances of a clean kill at long distances are not good with any caliber. There are just to many things that can go wrong. (Wind gusts)
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I would want a good tracking dog...chances of a clean kill at long distances are not good with any caliber

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Experienced opinions only please. Thanks.

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The .308 has a well earned rep of being a great rd. to learn long range shooting. The barrels last a long time. They don't kick hard even from prone in a heavy rifle and they do a pretty good job of bucking wind. Happen to have a couple myself.
Another good bullet for hunting is the Nosler Partition. It will open well at low impact speeds. Has for me out of a 7X57 at over 500 yds several times ( 140 gr. bullet 2800 fps.) A 165-168 gr. .308 slug can/should do the same. E

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Great White North.

Some folks are a bit more educated shooters than others. The wind gust you speak of is no critical than the animal taking a step at 100 yards. If you know what you are doing, neither will happen, yet anything can happen at any point. There is never anything that is 100% guaranteed. Other than you won't get em if you don't shoot.

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In target shooting if you miss a wind change you might shoot a 9 instead of an X. If you miss a wind change at 600 yds shooting at game the result will be a lot more sickening.
It all depends on what you are willing to accept.
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You are assuming someone will shoot in less than ideal conditions. With a scope on the gun its awful hard to miss a wind change at 600 yards. I do miss one sometimes while on iron sights though I'll admit that. But I don't hunt with iron sights. In a scope you have all the info you'll ever need to see the wind shifting.

So what do we do about taking a 100 yard shot on an animal thats alert and just as you shoot another person shoots in the canyon over and the animal you are firing at, ducks, lunges, whirls or starts to run.

Nothing is 100% in control. Wind changes are very visible. Even ones that move my 223 bullets at 600 only 3-4 inches are very visible in a scope.

It only requires lots of practice time and dedication.


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One reason a 308 is so highly regarded for long range work is that its light recoil makes it easy to practice enough to become a good shot way out there. And practice you must to hit past 300m, much less at the kind of ranges you mentioned.

I would also brush up on tracking, since your 30-30 analogy is so accurate. Few consider it a 200m deer gun, and most would expect a long tracking job on a deer shot at that range with one. Perhaps the biggest problem is simply finding where the deer was standing when the bullet struck. A third of a mile is a long way in the field, and things look different there than they do from your firing point. In such a case, I would mark my firing point by hanging a marker such as an extra orange vest in a tree. (A flag made of surveyor's take will be too small to see at that distance.) Shoot an azimuth to the game's last known location. Walk downrange, shoot a back azimuth to the marker and use your rangefinder to position yourself along that azimuth. Then you can start looking for spoor.

I used a 308 a fair amount in the military and made some interesting groups with it at the ranges you talk about. One reason I could do this is that our doctrine called for two-man sniper teams, with the less-experienced man on the rifle. The seasoned guy ran the spotting scope, read the wind and told the shooter where to hold. Among guys who knew the deal, any glory that acompanied a long shot went to the spotter first, the team second and the shooter last.

So the best advice I can give you, aside from dropping this project altogether, is learn to read the wind. There are mechanical ways to deal with trajectory but reading wind is still an art.


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Back to what I said, those that have the skills for the job aren't asking the equipment questions. If the guy really wanted to go about it correctly, he'd be asking how to get the shooting skills for consistantly placing shots way out there. Once said skills were gained, then he'd likely have the equipment figured out along the way.

Once again, plenty of guns are up to the task, most shooters aren't.

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Thanks for the real world advice Okie John. As I stated in an earlier post, if I can't consistently hit at longer ranges, no way am I going to shoot at game at those ranges. I have shot a fair amount at 300m and can usually keep my group within 4 or 5 inches (and that was with a less than ideal scope). But I still beg to differ from .458 Lott. Being able to place a bullet were you want it at long range, is a separate issue from knowing which bullet to use on game at those ranges.

Killing anything, means hitting the right spot, with the right bullet for the range in which it is intended. Most hunting bullets work well on deer-to-elk sized game at 50 to 250 yards. But finding the right bullet for 400-600 yard shots on game is another matter (just look at the differences in opinion on this topic). People who have used the .308 successfully at longer range, say it is adequate with the proper shot placement and bullet. People who like the big bores (either theoretically or in practise) say the .308 doesn't have enough mustard.

Many elephants and cape buff have been shot with .303s and to the big bore enthusiast, that just isn't done.

Thanks for the input anyway, and I will let everyone know how the hunts turn out.

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Sounds like your heart is in the right place. With the right skills you can take game at long range, and as 458 Lott pointed out, you discard a lot of marginal gear as you learn. The best way to learn the wind is to shoot NRA High Power, Palma or F-Class. You live and die on the wind in those matches. When I was a kid in the Oklahoma National Guard, our rifle team ruled when the wind kicked up because the wind always howled on our ranges. Guys who didn�t live in windy states couldn't touch them then.

The most important skill is the ability to handle unexpected outdoor logistical chores like a good infantry platoon sergeant. I mentioned land navigation in my first post, but I�ll repeat that the ability to get from exactly Point A to exactly Point B and back is crucial. Half the best hunting time is at dusk in the fall, so learn to do this at night and in bad weather, too.

The ability to analyze terrain is also critical. Maps and aircraft help but you really learn it on the ground. Your goal is the ability to predict from whence the game will come. But if you can do that, you don�t need to make long shots.

Also learn to pick routes over rough terrain and be physically hard enough to get game out over them. Warren Page or Jack O�Connor (I think) wrote of a �Six-Mile Shot.� The actual shot was 5-600m across a canyon. To reach the meat, he and his guide had to ride around it, six miles one way. Luckily, the writer made his shot in the morning, the elk fell in his tracks, the guide knew the area, and the pack horses cooperated. Can you imagine having to track an elk that had a six-mile head start? What if he had made that shot at dusk and had to find the bull at night? What if the ride had taken two days?

Lots of things to think about before you cue up a long shot.


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I'm with Chris Jamison on this one.

I have a 340 Weatherby for long range, but am very confident in the 308, and am most likely to be afield with my 308.

I have four rifles in 308s - a Savage with accutrigger - get one, an old remington 722, a Kimber 84M and a Rem 700 built by Homer Strickland. All of them, from $340 to $3500, shoot the 308 so well I sometimes wonder why I got the $3500 one!!!

In the Walter clan, the 308 reigns supreme.


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Why strain to make the kill? Deer at 400 or 500 I could buy...almost. But a bear or Elk? Just sounds like a bad idea to me. I tend towards more gun rather than less. If I had a rifle that I trusted to penetrate, and a bullet that would perform at those ranges I'd take the shot, provided everything was right.

FWIW I'd reccoment using a 165 Partition as they will likely expand with more reliability at the reduced impact velocity of the 308 at the extended range. I fear the TSX might be tougher and not expand.

My $0.02, and they're Canadian so not worth much.


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Barnes recomends 1800 fps minimum for the TXS,Nosler Rcomends 1900-2000 fps for the partion fo open this comes from Nosler reloading guide #4 The Barnes minimum speed comes from talking to Barnes



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I'm not a long range hunter myself, but I stumbled upon an interesting article while researching an upcoming project.

http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/longrange_shooting/shooting_hunting.htm

There's quite a bit of bullet info in there.


Huntin' season yet?

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I am an avid .308 Win. fan for deer and bigger game within 300 yards.
At longer ranges like what you are talking about velocity drops off rapidly and so does terminal bullet performance.
The super bullets will not cut it at those velocities.
Standards like the Hornady spire points will perform a tad better. Or.....the Nosler partitions.
I go to a more powerfull caliber for the above reasons.
The .308 is good up to 600 m. on people. Wounding is as good or better then killing in a military sense.
N_O_T in hunting, wounding should not be an option, neither should a cavalier attitude by taking big chances with a big game animals life and risky recovery as some others pointed out. Or ................to prove to yourself that "it can be done".
I am not accusing you at this point of calousness since you genuinly might not be aware of the limitations of the .308 in hunting.

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seems to me that if you can make a head shot at 500 yds, go for it. you either kill the animal or miss it cleanly....unless you shoot the jaw off...get my dift??

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okie john,

I've spent more than my share of times being alone and lost in the jungles of SEA, the deserts of SWA, the bottom lands of Kentucky, and the mountains of Colorado. So I know of what you speak. In my younger days, I could start a fire, hunker down, or walk all night if I needed to. Nowadays, I keep map and compass, GPS, and a backpack with bivey sack, LW sleeping bag, H20 tablets, and a little bit of food with me whenever I stray out in the boonies.

chazgreen,

a guy I was hunting with, once claimed he saw a nimrod shoot an antler off of a nice mule deer. So unless it's a charging buffalo, elephant, or lion, I'll stay away from the head shots, thank you very much.

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Tony Montana,

Thanks a bunch for the link! There was some excellent information on every aspect of long range hunting (and hitting). Very good stuff.

Rick (buffhunter)

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No problem, glad it had some info you could use. Clearly the Lilja crew has the experience to back up their writing. I was very impressed with the quality of all of the articles on their site. Good luck this fall!


Huntin' season yet?

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buffhunter/ my point exactly..if one cannot keep shots in a tight kill zone (7 inches) in the field, regardless of the yardage, keep the bullet in the chamber. i love to hear about those 500 yard kills; never hear much bragging about the animals shot in the jaw or the rear hoof; woods have too many gut shot deer to encourage those who lack that rare field skill to make CONSISTANT 400 yd bang flops.

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I agree that the .308, while a fine all around cartridge, is NOT a long range big game caliber. I like for my STRIKING velocities to be above 2500fps for thin skinned game. I have seen a remarkable difference when this line is crossed. Good Hunting!

safariman


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Well Guys,

I finally got around to shooting my sniper rifle. I shot off of the bipod instead of sandbags to make the shooting more realistic.

Without touching the scope settings. I fired 3 shots at 100 yards, 200 yards, and 300 yards. It was a fairly hot day, with a more-or less steady wind hitting my back at about 7-10 MPH.

Results:
At 100 yards, 1 inch group (including the fouling shot), with two rounds hitting the same hole (maybe 1/16-1/8 inch off). at 200 yards 1 inch group, at 300 yards 2 5/8 inch group.

I was going to shoot some more but both the heat (approx 90+ degrees) and the wind started picking up so I thought I would try again on another day. I was using the Fed 168 BTHP match ammo.

I went out today and bought some Fed 150 Nosler and some 168 Win Ballistic tips to see how they work in the gun.

If either one of them shoots as well as the Fed Match, I feel confident that a 350-400 yard shot on a black bear is reasonable and a 300-400 yard lung shot on an elk is doable.

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I'm editing to add the fact that folks seem to think the 308 is the "sniper" round for a reason. It is with the military and that carries over to the civilians many times. LE uses it because the military perfected the rifles and ammo and it works. The military used it because in a pinch you can grab linked M60 ammo Etc.... and still have a functional weapon. Try that with your 300 Win, 6.5x284 or my 338/300 RUM rounds. Given a choice I suspect that most folks would choose a better round for longer distance shooting. Sorry for the soapbox but I wanted to better explain why the 308 round was picked-- even though its not ideal.

_______________________________________________________________

I have often wondered why military snipers who aren't carrying the big .50 are using .308's

I can understand law enforcement, being most of their shots would be under 100 yds.

I find it hard to believe military snipers would be limited to a .308 even over a 30\06 that past snipers used.

Do you really think it is only about the ammo supply, or does the military really believe in the .308 for other reasons?







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chazgreen,
A few years ago I was at a gun show in MPLS MN.
Sitting at a table was some rufus with a Browning A- Bolt in 338 Win Mag. He had a polaroid picture of a cow elk that he had shot at some crazy distance and he was proud as a peacock of it. It had about seven holes that I could see,
some in the guts, some in the back legs, etc. I would have been ashamed of such a thing myself. I can't remember the yardage anymore but it was around 600 give or take 100.
Different strokes for different folks! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
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Got back from the range today. The 150 grain Feds seem to shoot better at 200+yards, but at 100 yards both the 168 Win. Ballistic Tip and the 150 Fed. shot at exactly the same place. I think I will start out with the Feds for the hunt. I also sighted in my .416 Rem Mag. in case I have to go into the scrub oak after a wounded bear.

There was a fellow at the range that was shooting a 100 grain Barnes X in .25 cal. on a 300 WSM case. According to him, it chrono'd at around 4100 ft. I shot it a couple of times and at 200 and 300 yards it is flatter than a pancake.

He is going to use it on caribou this fall. One hell of an interesting round.

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buffhunter-- Don't let him fool you--I built one of the .25-300 WSM's last year and 3800 is a hot load with a 100 gr Barnes TSX--If he told you he's getting 4100 fps, he need a new chronograph or he's a bald faced liar. You can get get 4100 fps with a 75 gr VMAX, but not the Barnes TSX...Speaking from experience... CJ

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Sounds like a cool caliber for deer in the open alpine country....

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I actually did deliberately gut-shoot a cape buff one time. But in Zimbabwe the trackers are so good that you are certain to get another chance at killing the animal (not so here in the US). Even then, I felt guilty and quickly finished off the animal......you arsehole,that kind of [bleep] moronic behaviour gives hunters a bad name,and shows how much respect you had for your quarry (none).

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buffhunter, the .308 is a fine cartridge and your rifle may be fine as well, but labels don't make good or fine stuff great stuff, which is what one needs for the long range shooting (or hunting) you seem interested in.


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No offence intended, but deliberately heading out to shoot game at 500-600 yards is very irresponsible. You are purposely decreasing your chances of a quick, humane kill and greatly increasing the chances that you will wound or terminally injure an animal. At those ranges it is likely that you will not find the wounded game and it will die needlessly. �Sniper rifles� are indeed cool, but I doubt that you�re trained as a sniper. A trained sniper would know that deliberately decreasing your odds of a quick efficient kill just for fun is a foolish idea.

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No offence intended, but deliberately heading out to shoot game at 500-600 yards is very irresponsible

Maybe for you...
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At those ranges it is likely that you will not find the wounded game and it will die needlessly.

What makes you think this?--Are you speaking from experience?
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�Sniper rifles� are indeed cool, but I doubt that you�re trained as a sniper.
You don't know me, or anyone else on this board, for that matter, so how would know what training has been had?
Quote
A trained sniper would know that deliberately decreasing your odds of a quick efficient kill just for fun is a foolish idea.
Most people who hunt long range seriously are just as good, if not better, shots at long range than are most short range hunters.

Dude--get a little education on a topic before you jump into it with both feet--Its hard to get both feet out of your mouth after putting them in as deeply as you just did.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

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No offence intended, but deliberately heading out to shoot game at 500-600 yards is very irresponsible.
I was really gonna stay out of this.But I really have a hard time keeping my mouth shut on this topic.....500 or 600 yards for a TRUE Long Range Hunter is a One shot,load them in the back of the truck deal.At 500 yards if the pin is dropped on one of my guns by myself or the other person in my crew.What ever is on the other end is dead...No if's ands or buts.We have "NEVER" shot a deer in the jaw.And we have "NEVER" had an animal get away from us..And I can only remember one time having to shoot an animal more than once.The deer at 780 yards was dead on his feet.But I did not like the fact it was still standing.It was in fact not needed

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QOUTE ;-500 or 600 yards for a TRUE Long Range Hunter is a One shot,load them in the back of the truck deal.

I can find only 1 word wrong with this sentence....that word being "hunter".....I could go with just about anything else shooter,taker of game,anything you care to name...but hunter sorry no.
I am not in anyway disputing your ability to take game at looooong range so dont get me wrong....but call it for what it is.

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I reckon the gang at Camp Perry ain't punching longrange tags,though the longrange tag punchers often play at Perry.

Semantics is trivial debate. Done deeds is simply that.

As an aside,were I twisting up a tool purposely geared towards stopping distant heart beats,the 308 wouldn't rate conversation.

'Course...your mileage may vary..........


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Ditto here, also...
But... sometimes, I like to run what I brung, and if an opportunity arises, I wouldn't let a little thing like having a .308 in hand stop me... I hasn't yet, out to 604 yds on real, live critters...But I would have shot them at 64 yds just as <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> fast...

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I savvy the sentiment..............


Brad says: "Can't fault Rick for his pity letting you back on the fire... but pity it was and remains. Nothing more, nothing less. A sad little man in a sad little dream."
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Thanks to all the information and advice from the experienced long range hunters. Two more weeks
and off I go and this will truly be antic-climatic if I
don't get a shot (or a bear).

As to "......you arsehole,that kind of [bleep] moronic behaviour gives hunters a bad name,and shows how much respect you had for your quarry (none).

Thor

________________________________________________

I see why you picked a fantasy name for your moniker.

As for "respect" I think the buffalo and I understand each other perfectly. It's the indignant, self-rightous idealists who live in a world of their own delusions that are clueless.

BTW It is amazing how much courage a person gets from the safety of cyber-space.

So, I'm curious noble hunter, how many rabbits, doves, and squirrels have you shot?

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that word being "hunter"..
There is no difference between what you do.And what I do.I have spent hours,days and weeks glassing hill sides "HUNTING" to find an animal to harvest.The fact that I "CHOOSE" to and have the knowledge and equipment to harvest game at ranges most people can't fathom.I'm not a hunter?????Please explain how what I do is any different than someone sitting in a tree stand or blind waiting for game to come to them..At what range do "YOU" draw the line between "HUNTING" and "SHOOTING"???? Please tell me..And another thing...I will give you or anyone else an "OPEN" invite to go "HUNTING" with me.I bet you would see things in a different light after a day or two with me...

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BoydHeaton,

Your invite is probably a waist of time. Ignorant prejudice is fun to hold and nearly imposible to overcome with facts.


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As to "......you arsehole,that kind of [bleep] moronic behaviour gives hunters a bad name,and shows how much respect you had for your quarry (none).

Thor

________________________________________________

I see why you picked a fantasy name for your moniker.

As for "respect" I think the buffalo and I understand each other perfectly.


Errrr!!! so let me get this straight...you and the buffalo understand each other perfectly..... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> so you deliberately gut shot him.....ah yes!! got it now??

you know it was wrong,is wrong and always will be wrong not to try for a quick result when shooting a animal.

I hope the next animal you gutshot stomps you,but then as you will be 100000 yards away you probably think you missed and wont bother yourself going to look.

Long range shooting sure....but not hunting,only in the US do we do this kind of thing...from what I can gather
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....but not hunting
I am waiting for someone to tell me why it is "NOT" hunting

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....but not hunting
I am waiting for someone to tell me why it is "NOT" hunting


Ok I am rolling along in my truck,and think I see something in the distance way off to one side.
I stop my truck get out and glass the area,sure enough its a shootable (add long range target here) I get my GPS lazer guided nasa spec. range finder and measure the distance to said target at (add looooong yardage here) excellant!!! lets go hunting!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
Next thing I do is get my shooting bench out of the truck and set it all up,this takes a few minutes then the rifle is set up as required.....nearly there in my hunting quest <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Now I get my anemometer and measure the wind direction and speed...so close now <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> one final bit to do I get my laptop and configure all the relevant information into it, bullet,wind speed direction distance...the usual suspects.
ok now we are cooking <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> so back to the bench with calculation in hand, set rifle up for computed windage and bullet drop....take aim and fire....hopefully this will result in a kill.....its as simple as that job done trophy in the bag hunt over <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> the mighty nimrod has struck once more.

If you fail to realise that shooting at animals at looong ranges isn't hunting by now you probably never will,but be under no illusion although probably no one (myself included) doubts that it takes skill etc yada yada to make such shots.....most people think you are laughable and ridiculous to claim such a title for yourselves.....

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Thor,

So with that logic, I trust you shoot a single shot rifle, no scope, in a medium cartridge like a 30-30.
To use a repeater, scope and use a military cartridge like the
'06 is not hunting.
Where do you draw the line? The rules or standards you set for yourself are you setting for other people?

There is an art and science with hunting, it may seem more science with some but none the less it is hunting.

My buddy bowhunts with a recurve and tells me using a compound to shoot past 25 yards is not hunting. Kinda of stupid is it not?

Just curious, what is long range for you?

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So I guess that you bow hunt and anything past 20 yards is not hunting? As I see it hunting is about the taking of an animal for food just as it was in the old days how you acomplish this does not change the fact that it is still hunting



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....but not hunting
I am waiting for someone to tell me why it is "NOT" hunting


Ok I am rolling along in my truck,and think I see something in the distance way off to one side.
I stop my truck get out and glass the area,sure enough its a shootable (add long range target here) I get my GPS lazer guided nasa spec. range finder and measure the distance to said target at (add looooong yardage here) excellant!!! lets go hunting!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
Next thing I do is get my shooting bench out of the truck and set it all up,this takes a few minutes then the rifle is set up as required.....nearly there in my hunting quest <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Now I get my anemometer and measure the wind direction and speed...so close now <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> one final bit to do I get my laptop and configure all the relevant information into it, bullet,wind speed direction distance...the usual suspects.
ok now we are cooking <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> so back to the bench with calculation in hand, set rifle up for computed windage and bullet drop....take aim and fire....hopefully this will result in a kill.....its as simple as that job done trophy in the bag hunt over <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> the mighty nimrod has struck once more.

If you fail to realise that shooting at animals at looong ranges isn't hunting by now you probably never will,but be under no illusion although probably no one (myself included) doubts that it takes skill etc yada yada to make such shots.....most people think you are laughable and ridiculous to claim such a title for yourselves.....

Thor222
I had a feeling you were ignorant to how Long Range Hunting is done.After your post the "FEELING" has turned to "KNOWING" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

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..........how you acomplish this does not change the fact that it is still hunting
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

yep just as I said...if you haven't got it by now you probably wont ever. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

A few things to note though about all you loooong range "hunters" I didn't notice many condeming the deliberate gut shooting of a animal....does this sum up your ethos or is "buffhunter" a isolated instance?

Also who actually believes that buffhunter actually did what he said from 30 yards? like he claimed MMmmmm I smell BS
On top off the "I want to take a bear at 500 yards etc etc remark who is kidding who here?
as stated not knocking your shooting ability no sireee....hunting ability oh yes.
putting food on the table is certainly one thing keeping hunger from the door etc, how its done is quite another matter.

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222.You still have'nt answered my ?...So if I go to Texas,get drivin to a blind over looking a Sendero.Can see 400 yards both ways.Climb up in my blind,get out my bino's.Glass all day to find a nice buck to shoot.Is that hunting???

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I can't figure why you're here posting on "Long Range Hunting" are you strolling or trolling?

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So I guess that you bow hunt and anything past 20 yards is not hunting? As I see it hunting is about the taking of an animal for food just as it was in the old days how you acomplish this does not change the fact that it is still hunting
JWP...I don't think we will ever get an answer out of this guy or girl.All I have read is a bunch of crap on how they think its done....Takes all kinds I guess

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On top off the "I want to take a bear at 500 yards etc etc remark who is kidding who here?
We Killed one with one shot last year at 675 yards.

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Ditto, Boyd. I killed two Antelope last year with two consecutive shots at 502 and 525 yds, respectively. The first was with a .308, believe it or not...

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Ditto, Boyd. I killed two Antelope last year with two consecutive shots at 502 and 525 yds, respectively. The first was with a .308, believe it or not...
500 yards for guys like you and me are chip shots.Inside 750 the 308 to me is just fine on deer size game.....The bear we took last year was killed 675 yards with one 210gr JLK vld MATCH bullet that left the barrel of my 30 inch 300 RUM at 3350fps.(THAT OUGHT TO START SOMETHING)Match bullets on game...NO WAY!!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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Thor222

I'm easing along in the woods. With my old compound bow. I spy a buck walking a trail. I've never been in this neck of the woods but its windy and he doesn't know I'm there.

I pull down my headnet all the way. Roll my cap around so the bill won't hit the string.

I know the ballistics of my bow awful good. Unfortunately I'm shooting a low BC arrow combo. I prefer the penetration capabilities.

But I do have a few good things going. I've got on comfortable warm waterproof new boots. The latest in high tech underwear to keep me warm(no cotton) but good old wool over that. I've got goretex in the pack in case it rains. I've got a layer of scent blocker suit on in the middle. I've washed with unscented soap, treated myself with baking soda, I'm a mix of new and old. Got that xstatic bacteria preventing longies on. Warm and dry. Have some of the new camo patterns too that help me blend in well. But no ghille suit. Heck those are so outdated anyway-- from centuries back....

The terrain is down a draw. So there is a gully between myself and the deer. Being I've never been here I don't know yardage. But I do know that if I miss guess more than a yard or two and its over 20 yards (which it is but just a bit) then I'll either miss or have a superficial non life threatening wound. Don't need that under my belt. So I take out my old rangefinder and spin the wheel while the buck is nibbling along. Got it now. 23 yards. I was thinking more like 27 but that gully can fool ya. I've always hunted with one sight pin thats adjustable. Its an easy way to work it and won't get me confused in the heat of the moment.

I move my pin to 23 yards. The wind from the fresh norther is really howling in my face and in my favor. But its blowing my arm and bow around fierce. So i ease back and lean back and sideways against the near tree. Gives me a good solid rest.

I draw back with my release(its from the 70s so don't go howling after all the chinese used them centuries ago) and settle my sights through my peep.

When the buck is head down and quartering away a bit I trip the release and the old 2117 and Zwickey are on the way.

Solid double hemo pneumo thorax hit. Give it some time and go get him.

So is that hunting? its not long range. takes advantage of tools that I don't need to use but are not any newer than 23 years(bow is 23 years old, arrrows, release, heads etc. are older).

Its all in how you view it yourself. Its why this thread is so lame anyway. Remember we are to band together. Not apart and call names.

I've killed animals with my knife, with a broken arrow. Both at zero distance IE I've had hold of them. I've used a spear. A longbow, recurve, compound. Wood arrows, aluminum, carbon. All kinds of heads INCLUDING flint. I've used pistols, 45s, 3 inch 44s, 357s, 3030 contenders. I've used shotguns, slugs and buckshot. I've used a bunch of rifles. I've shot 45,50,54 MZs. And MZ pistols.

Each one was an experience. From zero yards to 3 yards to over 500 with iron sights to over 800 with scopes.

And in the end it doesn't mean anything to you and I could care less. But to me they were all special and memorable. None much more important or exciting than the rest.

We are here to please ourselves. Its a solitary sport mostly.

Personally anything mentioned here is hunting.

And IMHO, the easier the shots that are taken, IE 100 yards out of a stand, are probably closer to shooting than hunting, than when the person makes it challenging. Its the nature of the beast and often of the male ego to keep it interesting.

The end point here should be that if you are capable only at 50 yards then you don't stretch that. I'm a bowhunter a bunch. Whats my lethal range? Depends on which bow I choose and what game I'm after. Its a variable. But I know my limitations and choose not to exceed them, regardless of the quarry, small or record book size.

The rest, including yourself, would be best served to look inward, rather than casting stones outward.

Am I far from the truth here?

Respectfully, Jeff


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Ditto, Boyd. I killed two Antelope last year with two consecutive shots at 502 and 525 yds, respectively. The first was with a .308, believe it or not...
500 yards for guys like you and me are chip shots.Inside 750 the 308 to me is just fine on deer size game.....The bear we took last year was killed 675 yards with one 210gr JLK vld MATCH bullet that left the barrel of my 30 inch 300 RUM at 3350fps.(THAT OUGHT TO START SOMETHING)Match bullets on game...NO WAY!!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Yep now that the back slapping and whooping and chest beating is out in the open you just chip shot yourself into the
class A***hole executive lounge.

Rost459 nice hunting story with your bow there.

Heres the difference between your story and the LD shooter one,you have managed to get or have waited for the animal to come into the zone inside which the animal would perceive danger ( if it knew you were there ) that takes hunting skill and landcraft.
If a LD shooter sets up all his equipment wearing (perhaps appropriately ) a clowns outfit complete with flashing light on top to take his 800 yard shot at a deer, that is outside the area of what a deer (in my experience) would regard as immediately threatening...it sees you knows your there what is it likely to do?...nothing most likely from that range.
So tell me mighty nimrods where does the term hunting apply here?

Buffhunter a suggestion for you,if you want to know about shooting buffalo or anything else african why not try www.accuratereloading.com try the "I deliberately gut shot a buff at 30 yards yarn there"...purely as a matter of interest of course <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Personally I think the only buff you have had will be on your shoes before another day in the office <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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FWIW my 3 yard shot on a whitetail I was checking an area in jeans and a white T shirt, no camo, no bath, lucky winds. Carried the recurve just in case. If thats no a clown suit and up close, well never mind.

I think I fail to see where you draw the line-- am I missing something. If we are going to go by saftey zones, sight smell etc... then the hunter in the box stand at 100 yards or less, well the deer could never see them, never smell them in the tight blinds I've been in. We can watch TV, run a heater, have a conversation, film etc.... the deer don't have a clue.

If you can draw a clear line-which again IMHO is impossible-- please have at it. All you'll do is divide the ranks further.

You may not term it hunting per your parameters. But one thing you cannot argue is skill level. I can guarantee that the skill level for the 3 yard bow shot is much less than for the LR shot. And there is no skill level to mention with a 100-200 yard rifle shot or a 50 yard pistol shot. Where is there any skill in sitting in a tree over a trail, beside a feeder, in front of a food plot and having a deer or XYZ come within 20-30 yards or less. The shot is a gimme. As it should be.

Are we not all in the woods to enjoy? Why should I say your flintlock is stupid compared to my recurve. Or my recurve to your compound or why is my compound too modern compared to your longbow. Or atlatl. They are all simply tools of choice. Whatever floats your boat.

What we do not need is division. I am a competitive shooter. I"ve never shot 1000 Yd BR like Boyd and others(sorry I can't recall all the names). I dont' dislike their competition. I can't say I've walked a mile in their shoes. I prefer to lay on my belly with a rifle at 1000. And not with a scope. With iron sights under parameters that allow my AR15 service rifle and shoot away and win matches. And I'm a laugh when I hit a shotgun range. And mostly a pistol range is a laugh too. I've only 20 points towards my pistol badge so you can see I 'm no shining light there.

My point is we still need each other. The enemy here is not me because if I feel like it I'll dink a deer at 800 yards and YCKMA. Or because I choose to shoot a doe with my recurve while you are a trophy hunter.

The enemy here is not the anti hunter or anti shooter. Or Charles Schumer or Hillary Clinton. There is no clear enemy. We do not have to worry about fighting the minority here. We are the minority. The anti's are the minority. Its the 80% of the fence sitters that we have to show that we are on our own. We don't care if they play soccer, race cars etc... but that our sports are no different than theirs. And inherently much safer sports. Sports that require lots of mental skill. Sports that produce fine citizens of our younger crowd. That crowd that will shape the future of this country. And keep her free and clear. The way she was intended to be. So that all the sacrafices of the past are not in vain.

Do you see why this is a moot point? I'm efficient and enjoy what I do. I'm totally sure you are efficient and enjoy what you do. There is no need to look further. You are on my side and I on yours.

Regards, Jeff


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Yep now that the back slapping and whooping and chest beating is out in the open you just chip shot yourself into the
class A***hole executive lounge.
Good one...But you still hav'nt answered my ?Where does hunting stop and shooting start for you???

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As I have already stated.......you have managed to get or have waited for the animal to come into the zone inside which the animal would perceive danger ( if it knew you were there ) that takes hunting skill and landcraft.

thats it period.....I have never once said it does not take skill to shot a animal at long range, not once, and it puts food on the table agreed.
Call yourselves hunters if you want (you 'aint) but deep down you know the difference between someone who can put the sneak on a animal and outwit them by fieldcraft and those who unload the benchrest from the truck and shoot.
I think you need to reality check your version and definition of a "hunter" than that held by the vast majority of people let alone shooters et al. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
BTW.....what is your opinion of gutshot animals?

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.......you have managed to get or have waited for the animal to come into the zone inside which the animal would perceive danger
At what range would that be???
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Call yourselves hunters if you want
Thats what we are...We just shoot farther thats all
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and those who unload the benchrest from the truck and shoot.
Sorry bud...Don't use a bench
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I think you need to reality check your version and definition of a "hunter" than that held by the vast majority of people let alone shooters et al.
Right now the "VAST MAJORITY" just seems to be 'YOU"

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Well boyd its kinda like this.....read this real sloooow so it goes in,I wouldn't expect loads of back up on what people think of you and your ilk,given that I am posting on the Loooong range forum the comments you and others have been making....."gut shooting" "chip shots" match bullets for hunting etc. probably leave such a bad taste in the mouth of everyone else they probably dont drop by here often.
It is plainly obvious that you will insist on calling what you do hunting and also obvious that you wont answer any of the things I have asked off you.
Having hunted yes...hunted <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> all over the world I can tell you the ability to know and get close to your target animal is most often highly regarded.
Shooting it at extreme ranges well .....thats just shooting at long range skilled for sure but NOT hunting <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
now if you would care to answer my questions that you have been avoiding <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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I will answer your gut shot ? tomorrow....Gotta hit the sack

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...Gotta hit the sack


What range are we talking here ? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

just kidding !! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

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Thor222(thats too small to hunt deer with....)

What do I think of gut shots. Well I think they are misplaced. Impacts that did not go where they are intended.

Those animals are very easy to find if you have any experience in the woods though.

And yep I've done it. Funny part is its done much more than most folks will admit and at ranges mostly way under what you are probably predicting.

FWIW we have liberal deer seasons, limits and I've been hunting since a kid and guided hunters for quite a bit of time on a ranch where we were required to harvest over 300 deer a year. Therefore I've seen results of a lot of shots.

Whats your point on gutshots-- I actually did not roll this thread backwards to see.


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..........how you acomplish this does not change the fact that it is still hunting
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

yep just as I said...if you haven't got it by now you probably wont ever. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Thor222


It seems that you are the one that doesn't get it. You simple want to impose your views on everyone else with no other critiera other than your views and or opion.With the epuipment of today 500 yard shots are not only possiable but relitively easy if you know what you are doing



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I wasn't going to post anything here as I am FAR from being a long-range hunter. I don't have the equipment, skill, desire, or need to try and shoot anything over 300 yards, mostly under 100 anyway. However, I have followed this post on and off and have a few things to add. A fellow interested in this subject posted a question, a valid question at a place that he felt that experienced people could help him out. Fortunately, guys like Jamison and Boyd Heaton(there are others,sorry if I forgot your name) that have the experience and the generosity to help this fellow out. I have no desire or business trying any of these long range shots on game but that doesn't mean that folks with the equipment,skill, and dicipline should abandon the idea. When legal, I'm not the one to tell people how to hunt or what hunting is in general. I think that nowadays its safe to say that most folks hunt out of enjoyment than necessity(sp?). Of course folks eat the meat that came from animals they killed, but they could've just as well went to the local grocery store and got it. That said, "challenging" hunting for lack of a better word seems to be a popular item. There are many folks that hunt with a bow, muzzleloader, handgun, and hunt long range style. Since the terrain I live and hunt in typically offers close range hunting for deer, I hunt with bow and handgun a good deal. I've chosen a challenging way of hunting that I like, is practical for my hunting environments, and that I'm competent in. I tip my hat to you long range guys since I know from limited experience that it takes discipline and dedication to be able to make these long range shots. I doubt very seriously that I'll ever get into long range hunting, but if a hunter chooses so and does it proficiently then more power to them. Good hunting this year everyone.


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High Brass--Thanks for your opinion, as I believe it is the opinion of most hunters out there. I also "short range" hunt with rifles and handguns, as well as being an avid bowhunter. I like to think that I can handle whatever shot is presented, as long as I have the correct equipment on hand. I have taken big game animals from powder burn range out to around 850 yds and varmints out to over 1300 yds, so I have a little experience. I don't shoot competition anymore, as my job as a firearms instructor pretty well keeps me busy. I wouldn't wanna get burned out... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

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I will answer your gut shot ? tomorrow....Gotta hit the sack
I watched a short range hunter a few years back putting on a chase for some guys.Unload his trusty turdy-turdy at a small group of deer he just kicked up.Keep in mind I am 700+ yards away from this "hunter" watching through my big eyes.We had watched these deer come up the point at first light and bed down in a thicket by the way.One of the deer was hit high in the right rear quarter and the exit was low on the left side through the last rib.The 2nd deer hit had a right front leg busted off just below the knee.Both deer made it around the point out of the "hunters" sight.The hunter then sat down fired up a "non" filtered cig.Smoked it.Then got up walked down the point,away from the deer about 100 yards.Now about 20 minutes have gone by.Both deer are bedded down no more than 300 yards to the right of this guy.My hands were tied.We watched both deer for another 20 or so minutes until the "hunter" left the hill.To answer your ?.Gut shots happen.I watched the gut shot deer above for close to an hour.Was'nt pretty.We finished both deer with one shot a piece...After getting both deer out we stopped at the camp where the "SO CALLED" hunter was out of.Ask him why he did'nt go after the deer.He told me he had'nt shot anything.When I showed him the video we had taken of himself shooting and wounding both deer.He told us if we did'nt leave he was gonna call the cops..In fact we turned him in for not making an attempt to find the deer he wounded... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

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"A fellow interested in this subject posted a question, a valid question at a place that he felt that experienced people could help him out."

they also failed to comment on his deliberste gut shooting of a animal.

"Whats your point on gutshots-- I actually did not roll this thread backwards to see."

I suggest you do and read about buff hunter claiming to have deliberately gut shot a Buffalo from 30 yards,I personally think this is BS,yet surprisingly for all you experienced "hunters" out there not 1 commented about BH doing so to 1 of the dangerous 5 in africa...so as I said naive?..whos kidding who.

"since I know from limited experience that it takes discipline and dedication to be able to make these long range shots."

never claimed otherwise you will find,just that long range shooting 'aint hunting.

"When I showed him the video we had taken of himself shooting and wounding both deer.He told us if we did'nt leave he was gonna call the cops..In fact we turned him in for not making an attempt to find the deer he wounded... "

To put it simply good for you,the guy was no hunter just a slob who shouldn't have a gun.

I can see we have reached a impasse regarding this,If I had the hardware available,and had practiced enough,I might have a go at taking a long range shot myself....the one thing I wouldn't do when sitting in my den sipping a nice single malt and looking admiringly at the mount on the wall was delude myself that I had hunted anything....there is a world of difference.
So the next time you are about to drop the hammer on a animal 800+ yards away,ponder this am I hunting here? and why is the animal not bothered by my clowns outfit and the flashing light on top of my head?
I will leave it at that then.
good luck in your future long range shooting.
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Thor and High Brass:

I suspect you are both through commenting. I did not have time to roll back. Let me just say that if someone gut shot something on purpose that the best thing that could happen is reciprocity.

Those shots happen, not on purpose, but happen all the time.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here. Neither of you 2 and I'll include myself, can draw a solid line as to differences. This debate can go on forever. Let me put in a few deeply personal thoughts that may help add to the comment. I speak not for everyone. I speak for myself. I am a bowhunter from way back. IMHO bowhunting is real hunting. I don't think that pistol hunting is challenging. Anyone can kill one at 100 yards with iron sights and a pistol. Anyone can kill at 200 with a scope. MZ don't do anything either. Easy out to 300 yards. My buddy thats not a shooter took a muley at 218 last fall with my MZ. CF rifles are not hunting either. There is nothing to a shot out to 300-400 for me. 500-600 gets interesting and I start to have to put effort back into it.

Now I'll go to the point to say that its the effort that interests me and qualifies the statement hunting. It takes skill and effort. Its not sitting in a blind waiting out a deer feeder with sandbags and a rifle at 75 yards. That can't be challenging. It might qualify as hunting to you. To me its simply harvesting.

Which is what you call our LR shooting. Not hunting. But harvesting or shooting. I can maybe grant you that. But then again if you aren't a bowhunter then you arent' truly hunting to me either.

So you see, as said a long time ago, its in the eye of the beholder.

Again I fail to see how we can continue to waste time getting hung on the word hunting. It has nothing to do with ethics or legality.

I will add that as a competitive shooter-- folks that are dedicated shooters like Boyd and a few others that I'll never hold a candle to, these folks are a cut above the average joe hunter. Boyds gut shot reply is a prime example. They were not there simply to shoot. But to "hunt" and target a specific animal. They chose the terms of the hunt. Instead they do what other hunters should complete and then continue it on to its final and correct end. Most out there would ignore.

I'm afraid you may have never taken a hunter education course in which our state mandates us as instructors, to talk about the evolution of the hunter. Picking the weapon of choice and terms of the hunt means you have evolved to the top. You are not out for the kill only. But the parameters you set are much more stringent than the average joe.

I fail to see that you are condemning LR hunters. Yet you continue to be hung up on a 7 letter word.

You pick yours, we'll pick ours. Personally I support your choices. And I expect you to support mine. It's very similar to those hunters that agree with some forms of gun control. IE we don't need assault weapons. Its what I shoot, I'm good at it, I don't do any harm. So why don't you support me. Cause you need me to support your pistol or deer rifle if the time comes.

I did take time to sit at the computer today and use dogpile for a LONG time researching the word hunting. No where could I find that there was a weapon parameter, size parameter, distance parameter etc... Which is what I expected. My choices end with the same result as yours do.

What is a pity, to me anyway, is that we are expected to agree with your views and abandon ours. While the correct way is for us to support your hunting and you support ours. Amigo.

Jeff


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From thor:

suggest you do and read about buff hunter claiming to have deliberately gut shot a Buffalo from 30 yards,I personally think this is BS,yet surprisingly for all you experienced "hunters" out there not 1 commented about BH doing so to 1 of the dangerous 5 in africa...so as I said naive?..whos kidding who.

_________________________________________________

Duh! Make up your mind bubba! First you lambast me on mutiple posts for my comment of deliberately shooting a buff to provoke a charge. Then, many posts later, you state you beleive it is all BS. Are you forgetting to take your meds or what?

For the record, I did deliberately shoot a buff a to wound it and provoke a charge. I hit it a little low and a little far back. Study your "Pefect Shot" book and you will see that I probably clipped its liver. That way the buff is pissed, has complete structural use of its body and leaves a good blood trail for the trackers. I also stated that I felt guilty when the buff didn't respond immediately and then I hit it twice where I should have the first time and it died after about a 10 yard charge.

Is that a nice thing to do. Hell no. Are buffalo nice when they get a chance to take out people, lions, etc. Hell no. I don't like anything to suffer needlessly (except maybe for my enemies). I quit duck hunting and bird hunting, even though I have a good friend who has access to some of the best pheasant and quail country in Colorado, because I got tired of killing birds and finding old wounds and pellets in them. Those birds (IMO) survive and suffer for months.

Ask any PH, and they will tell you that a "gut shot" animal will be dead within a week, even quicker if there are lions and such around.

At least, I was going to give the buff a chance to stomp my ass before he died. Maybe that is not your cup of tea, but I make no apologies. The only real regret I have is the fact that I might have put the PH and tracker in a dangerous situation.

But that has absolutely nothing to do with long-range hunting. Nothing.

The object of long range hunting is to make a one-shot, clean kill at the longest range you feel confident. Blazing away at an animal you jump at 20 yards, hoping against hope, to break something, is far worse IMO, than placing a controlled shot at a known range, with a rifle/cartridge combination that you have shot repeatedly at those same ranges.

A cool shot at long range, can certainly be more deadly than an excited nimrod blasting away at more moderate ranges without any idea of where his bullets are going to land at those ranges.

Having said that, I believe thor that you are a fake and a coward. In every post that asks you direct questions, you always reply with generalities, emotion, and name-calling, but no facts. You stated you have hunted around the world. My question is for what? KY jelly for you and your boyfriend?

There are a lot of good, decent, experienced hunters on this forum, who try to be helpful and honest. You seem to be nothing but a malcontent, trying to stir up trouble.

If you are an experienced hunter, than why don't you provide us some examples of your experience, rather than bad-mouthing people who have been there and done that?

To the rest of you, I apologize for the tirade, because that is not what this board is about. Again, thanks for the helpful advice, and I will let you know how my hunt (only 2 more weeks) turns out.

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QUOTE
For the record, I did deliberately shoot a buff a to wound it and provoke a charge...... A+ grade a**hole

Is that a nice thing to do. Hell no.........I don't like anything to suffer needlessly (except maybe for my enemies)........Please refer to above..errrr but you did gut shooter A+ AGAIN

Ask any PH, and they will tell you that a "gut shot" animal will be dead within a week, even quicker if there are lions and such around......Only a week of suffering needlessly if the buff had run off,not so bad really then A++ AWARDED

I make no apologies. The only real regret I have is the fact that I might have put the PH and tracker in a dangerous situation.......Firstly if the PH condoned that then A+ to him,if not then if they whipped you black and blue you would have deserved it A++ Awarded

The object of long range hunting is to make a one-shot, clean kill..........indeed any hunting DUH!! read above for what you actually did A++ Awarded

There are a lot of good, decent, experienced hunters on this forum.......Agreed there are indeed,I dont count you amongst them however <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

If you are an experienced hunter, than why don't you provide us some examples of your experience, rather than bad-mouthing people who have been there and done that.......been there and done what exactly?...deliberately cause suffering to a animal?...no thanks its always my aim for 1 quick shot kills <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

To the rest of you, I apologize for the tirade.......to the rest of the forum, you have been revealed for what you are. [/quote]

ok BH thats it,but I hope some day that your gut shooting antics repay you.....them big AK kodiaks rip a mean hole.
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You still never answered anyone's questions.

As for what I am. Hunting is a blood sport. Accept it.

Just like bull-fighting, dog-fighting, and cock-fighting.

Just as you don't deliberately hurt the weak (i.e. deer, elk, rabbits, quail, etc.), pissing off dangerous game (i.e. animals that are fully capable of taking you out), is something else altogether.

The only hunters I disrespect are the cowards that have the PHs shoot their elephants (Oh, I just can't see it!), or look for a hidely hole when they muff a shot on a buff, because they are too scared.

Killing a dangerous (but unsuspecting) animal with one perfect shot is like hitting a 300 lb biker in the head with a lead pipe, when he isn't looking. Sure you accomplished your task. Is it noble? Are you giving him (or her) a fair chance?

Hell no. But walk up to him square and trade punches with him for 3 or 4 shots and you get an idea of what living on the edge is all about. (Not to mention pissing blood for 3 days).

So from your self-rightous perch, instead of squawking about what a horrible person I am, tell us what you've done that makes you such a supreme know-it-all hunter.

My guess, is we'll get no details, just hyper-bole.

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WTF??


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Rost..I do not know what the hell that was about either....very random...


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Still trying to make sense of that post...

Buff are you saying that every animal you harvest you make sure that they know you are there?....and if you do let the animal know you are there only then is this giving him a fair chance? So us hunters only get a true experience by pissing an animal off and "trading shots" with it for 3 or 4 times.....WTF!!.....buddy I think you got it all mixed up somewhere down the line and that is being very nice....


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buffhumper, why do you even take a gun? It would be more realistic and put you closer to nature if you used your testosterone dripping fists and feet. Then, and only then, you would be able to trade, blow for blow, equally....... You'll get yours!!!!!!! 721

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Just what we need to further the sport even more. I think you were VERY nice.
Jeff


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Thanks Rost.....I want to post more but am going to hold off....:)...been hot in La Grange I'm guessing?


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This post has gotten way off from what the original topic was about.

But again "for the record". You can rationalize it however you want, but hunting is about killing animals that are basically minding their own business.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with that, because it's getting down to what has allowed any creature to survive.

Any way you cut it, you have to kill to eat and you have to kill anything that threatens to kill you, either directly (i.e. a hungary bear) or by eating up what you need to eat to survive.

That's it in a nutshell. If you can't see that, then please explain to me what I am missing!

I don't shoot prairie dogs, because they offer me nothing in the way of food or threat. But if you get a sense of satisfaction out of the technical and practical aspects of shooting them, far be it from me to criticize.

As far as antelope, deer, and elk, I've shot my share, but I'm not that crazy about the meat and unless it is really a fine animal, I will let them go.

As stated earlier, I stopped bird hunting because I got tired of killing quail, pheasants, and ducks with old wounds. Still if that is what you enjoy, I don't judge, because killing and suffering is as much a part of life as sex and happiness.

For my part, I enjoy hunting dangerous game where there is real danger. I try to get within spitting distance and depending on whether I'm looking at a world class trophy or an average animal (not to mention what it will cost if I wound it and lose it), I take my shot.

There are very few animals I would deliberately wound. The Cape Buffalo is at the top of the list. Why? Because I have more respect for that animal then any animal in the world.

When it comes to courage, tenacity, and a will to kill you the buff reigns supreme. Shooting a buff to hurt him but not physically impair him for the short run, is a sign of respect not meaness or pettiness. Giving him a chance to "even the score", IMHO is one of the greatest compliments to the animal and one of the most thrilling episodes in all of the world of hunting.

I've seen guys pop prairie dogs with .22s and laugh as the critters turned somersaults and dove into their holes.

I don't consider that sporting or worthy of a top predator, but that's just my opinon.

If you spend your life rationalizing and sugar-coating why you hunt, I consider that dishonest. The "kill thrill" is what has given every predator the edge to risk its life to take another.

That is the real essence of the hunt, at least for me. I make no apologies, but if you look deep down in your heart, maybe you will recognize some truth in what I write.

But if the best you can come up with is 'WTF" than you aren't thinking too hard about why people and animals that really love to hunt, really love to hunt.

Like they say "Somedays you eat the bear, and somedays the bear eats you." That's how I live my life.

No offense to anyone (excepting to thor, which never has answered a direct question), but you hunt your way and I'll hunt mine, but I honestly do believe that me and the buff have a perfect understanding of the situation. If I kill him and live, I win. If he kills me and he lives, he wins. If we both die, then at least we broke even.

Good hunting (to the hunters) and in 2 days I will begin my "long range" bear hunt. For this hunt I want to make a one shot kill at 300+ yards with a .308 sniper rifle, just to see how it works. I've scouted hard and have already found an area where a bear is feeding. The prints don't look particularly large, so I'm guessing it is a yearling or sow. I will probably not shoot that bear (unless it is one hell of a interesting color phase), because I want a bigger one.

Again thanks to the "experienced" long-range hunters for their hints and advice and I will post my results (good or bad) providing some of you don't get your wishes and I get recycled into bear [bleep]. Personally, I don't have a problem with that, but if it is all possible, I will come back and haunt the posters who have criticized me. BTW I am not kidding and I might just be strong-willed enough to pull it off.

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Gmoney

Some other drivel got in the way here. But to the question. Its actually been nice since Sunday morning when we started on a fence. Low humidity and a north breeze. Probably only was about 97 yesterday without the humidity it felt good actually. I didn't sweat all that much.

This morning is a different story. Fog everywhere and the humidity choked me going out the door. And supposed to be 100-101 or so plus index.

I'm sure yours is the same!

Best, Jeff


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Sure is.....we have zero breeze....it's supposed to really cool off this weekend though....all the way down to 95 or so!!!!;).....those dove better look out though...I'll be out there if it's 120....


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wow.. even a year later there is still heated discussion about long range hunting....

I am first and foremost a hunter been doing it quite some time.. I am even a professional guide.

I spend alot of time in the summer and early fall scouting areas to hunt from.

I look for areas that give me a line of sight well over 1000 yards. These areas typically include the migration trails from one area to another. I also look for areas that offer views into multiple staging areas as well as multiple bedding areas. These shots are typically 500 yards+

Keep in mind that these shots can also be within 100 yards as well.

As far as what one person described as being close enough to the animal to scare them or make them fear or whatever.. thats freakin' hogwash.. why would you want to take a chance of spooking the game before you get your opportunity. If you can observe the game at a distance and take it cleanly with one shot .. why wouldn'y you? Reguardless of the distance.

A close shot more often than not leads to an animal bolting for anywhere but where it is at.

so YES I am a hunter but more often than not I "snipe" my intended target.

All you "purists" can just deal with the reality of it. Long range hunting has proven time and time again to be a sucessful and efficient way to hunt. There are thousands of feet of video tape to prove it. I spend the fall guiding for outfitters, my job then is to get the "hunter" as close as possible so don't tell me it is because I don't have the skills to get close. I prove that I can for 10 consecutive weeks a year.

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Well, my old pappy always said, "If you can do it, it ain't braggin', its just a fact. Of course, living in Florida now, do not get many long shots and am to old to do it anymore. But, have a SS 30-30 that still does the trick on whitetail. Longest shot in Florida, 240 yards, handload, CT Ballistic Silvertip...150 grain.......W748...IMHO

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Just as you don't deliberately hurt the weak (i.e. deer, elk, rabbits, quail, etc.), pissing off dangerous game (i.e. animals that are fully capable of taking you out), is something else altogether.

The only hunters I disrespect are the cowards that have the PHs shoot their elephants (Oh, I just can't see it!), or look for a hidely hole when they muff a shot on a buff, because they are too scared.

Killing a dangerous (but unsuspecting) animal with one perfect shot is like hitting a 300 lb biker in the head with a lead pipe, when he isn't looking. Sure you accomplished your task. Is it noble? Are you giving him (or her) a fair chance?

Hell no. But walk up to him square and trade punches with him for 3 or 4 shots and you get an idea of what living on the edge is all about. (Not to mention pissing blood for 3 days).



wow!!! now hold on there buffty hunter I suspect several loose bolts in the metal plate in your head!! because you may well be the 300lb biker who was hit on the head <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
seriously though pal for someone who (allegedly) has shot 2 buffalo and 1 elephant...lets see thats got to run to (guessing here) $30,000 (open to correct figure btw) but anyway that 'aint cheap this implies someone with quite a few greenbacks in reserve <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> so what do you do? you trade 3 or 4 shots with the buffalo to prove what exactly? you must have something seriously LACKING in your life if that is the way you have to get your kicks.dont suppose daddy ever told you it wasn't big or clever to have animals suffer (as you deliberately set out to do) intentionally.
I have never once said that the guys into the long range stuff didn't know what they were about regarding quick and efficient kills.
You on the other hand are beyond redemption and have been revealed for what you are ie a gob [bleep] with a mentally unhinged brain

For the rest of the guys my shooting is mostly <250 yards with a 243 for deer,for me the stalk is the best part of the hunt,I hunt for the enjoyment of the outdoors and putting food on the table,
we may disagree on some things <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> but at least Buffty boy has been revealed for what he is.

cheers Thor222

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awwwww, for the love o' Mike...

Why don't you two (thor222 and buffhunter) go out back and finish this...




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As promised, I said I'd let everyone know how the bear hunt turned out. I hunted hard for 10 days, but the bears didn't want to cooperate.

Where I hunted there was plenty of bear sign, but it was all down low in the drainages. Average visibility about 20 yards. The berry crop was absolutely fantastic this year (rose hips, choke cherry, etc.) and the bears stayed in the thick stuff. Not exactly "sniper rifle" cover. I probably screwed up by going to early in the season as the acorns and high country berries weren't quite ripe.

One thing I learned is that sniper rifle and 4x14 SA Govt II is one heavy rifle to hump up and down ridges. I had to carry it the way you would carry an M60 machine gun (you grunts know what I'm talking about)!

Still I have no doubt that from a prone position with the bipod, I could hit a pie plate at 350 yards (as long as the wind wasn't kicking up too bad), all day long.

I'm trying to decide if I want to lug that rifle on my October elk hunt. It's a backpack hunt, with a serious 5 mile climb to get to my camping place. Then it's another mile or two to where I hunt. My guess is that I will take the .7mm Wby. That rifle is heavier than most deer/elk rifles, but it is a lightweight compared to the sniper rifle. Again, thanks for the advice on bullets and reading the wind.

Good hunting to all.

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UHHHHHH, i'm now veeeeery confused!!!!!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> WHATEVER...................................................... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

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pie plate at 350 with a bi-pod.... crap I could do that off hand...
what does your load do at 100 yards?
are you shooting round nose bullets or what...
your groups at 300 should be about 3" on a normal day....
are your handloading or using factory?

here's a 5 shot 500 yard group from a bi-pod...

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WyoWhisper,

Do I ever agree with you about hitting it offhand.


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WyoWhisper:

pie plate at 350 with a bi-pod.... crap I could do that off hand...
what does your load do at 100 yards?
are you shooting round nose bullets or what...
your groups at 300 should be about 3" on a normal day....
are your handloading or using factory?
_____________________________________________

Using the bipod from a shooting bench, I generally shoot about 0.5 in groups at 100 yd with at least 2 out of 3 in the same hole (or oval).

At 200 yd, shooting as above, I get groups around 1 - 1 and a quarter in.

At 300 yd, I generally shoot 2.5 - 2.75 in groups.

Most groups hit within 2 or 3 inches of where I expect them to land.

What I was talking about was shooting pie plates under field conditions, up hill, down hill, etc. (it is amazing what lying on a prickly pear will do to your concentration.)

That was one heck of a nice 500 yd group. How close was it to where you wanted it to hit?


Consisting hitting pie plates at 300 yd from offhand is some pretty neat shooting in my book. Kudus to you.

BTW I get the above results with 150 gr Fed, 168 gr Win, and 168 gr Fed match. All factory loads. Out to 200 yds, there is not much difference in the Fed and Win hunting loads. The match does seem a little more accurate past 200 yds.

Anyways, after sighting in my .7mm Wby, I decided to go ahead and use the .308 sniper rifle for elk.

I will let you know how it turns out.

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One of the ironies in this thread, which I don't think anyone has pointed out, is that a lot of the blokes who moan about shooting game at long range think nothing of whanging away at running game. I don't shoot at running game. Also, I would gladly take an elk undisturbed at 400 yards over a nervous bull I just got out of his bed at fifty... though it always seems like the nervous bull is the one I'm on! The point is to make a clean kill and I'll wager, swagger and ego aside, some of the blokes on this thread are better at 600 yards than the average jazbo is at 100 yards.

Shooting at range takes practice, patience and discipline as well as all the gear. But then so does all hunting...

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I've taken some running shots at deer from my earliest years hunting and have done well. That's not bragging, but simply a fact. I've also done some longer range hunting and have done well there, too. That doesn't make me anyone special. I'm certainly not "special" enough to believe anything I aim at with a "sniper rifle" is going to fall to my bullet and I'd have to be out of my mind to suggest to others that I'm careful about either approach if I had already stated that I'd shot a buff in the guts just to get a rise out of him. This entire thread was basically shot in the guts about the same time the poster mentioned shooting a buff that way.


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I still sit upon the fence regarding when "hunting" ends and "shooting" begins. I'm loathe, however, to judge someone else who ethically takes an animal through any means lawful and within the personal zone of confidence each individual has with his tools.

I take issue with anyone who does not use their tools in a manner likely to kill prey as quickly and humanely as possible. As stewards of the land, it is our duty to show compassion and respect to any and all animals we place in our crosshairs, iron sights, or whatever manner of weapon we choose. A quick kill devoid of suffering is the ultimate show of respect to the animal. Causing injury to any animal without this requisite intent is wrong. Purposefully injuring the animal with the intent to incite a charge, slow it down or any other end state is wrong. You have taken the honor out of the hunt and interjected your own selfish ego-driven agenda.

I realize poor shots occur and good people make mistakes. I fully realize some animals can take a massive amount of damage and continue to function. I'm not so naive as to think every shot I make will be devoid of suffering upon impact. Regardless, that is my goal.

As such, regardless of your opinion whether LRH is truly "hunting", any time a hunter honors his prey with a quick death, he/she is to be commended. Whether this occurs at 10 yards or 1000 is of little consequence.


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Hunting stops and shooting begins at the moment you decide to take the shot.

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This entire thread was basically shot in the guts about the same time the poster mentioned shooting a buff that way.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Amen to that. If I'd realized just how judgemental and selfrightous so many of the "hunters" are, I would not have posted that bit. Not because of any shame or any belief that it was "wrong" or not "honorable", only because of the fact that the original topic of the post was lost in the debate. Come to think of it the original topic was lost when so many of the so-called "hunters" started taking potshots at the entire concept of long range hunting.

One thing is apparent, many of the people who've posted have a very strict and narrow interpretation of what hunting is and isn't. And also to what is "fair chase" and "honorable".

Someone mentioned that long-range hunting isn't hunting, it is shooting. Using that logic, stalking to within 10 yards and shooting an animal isn't hunting, it is stalking, sitting in a tree stand for 10 days straight and shooting a whitetail isn't hunting, it's sitting, so on, ad nauseum.

With that, I think I will start a new topic under general hunting.

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was the final judgement .300M beats the .308 for large game past 4-500 yrds? There was some real good discusion... at least at the beginning lol

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gicts:

I am sorry what was the question? LOL

Don't know if you made it to the General Hunting forum, but I've just about got a war going on over there with Morality of Hunting thread. For some reason, no one can get past the "gut shooting a buff" thing and get on with thread. Must be my natural charm.

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Buffhunter-------If long range hunting is within your parameters, more power to you. Fifty years ago I also was pretty fair with a Springfield. You must understand where many of the posters on this forum are coming from....Many of us were taught from a very early age that it was an honor to be able to hunt. It was drummed into us that the animals we hunted deserved a humane and relatively painless termination and should not be made to suffer. Many of us passed this on to our children and they will pass it to theirs. I know that as soon as you made that first shot on the buffalo that you probably felt badly about it, for I would suspect that the persons who raised you, also injected the same things most of us were taught..good luck to you....

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superhornet:

Thanks for the well wishes! Friday I am backpacking alone up into some prime elk country for an entire week and I'm going to tote that heavy gun up and try my best to make a good, one-shot kill.

.I will let you know how it turns out.

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A couple of comments:

A heavy barreled .308 sniper rifle is a pretty stupid choice for long range shots at game. Do yourself a favor and get a real long range cartridge in a lighter rifle.

Those posters who say they can hit pie plates at 300 yards, all the time, not once in awhile, offhand have probably never tried it. If you can do that, come up to Camp Perry. There's a good chance you'll win the national offhand championship.


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Indy:

You are not one for mincing words, hey?

Back in my youth, I humped an M60 through some really nasty jungle. I'm older now, but I still think I can haul the thing up the mountain. I've already spent a week bear hunting with it and it is not fun to carry (makes my M70 Win African in .416 Rem Mag seem like a 5 pounder), but I will get by.

As far as the 300 yd off-hand posters, I generally give people the benefit of the doubt when it don't cost me nothing.

Can't argue with you philosophy though (Life is short. Hunt hard).

BTW The .308 in question came to me by way of a good friend who died of lung cancer last April. I told his wife (widow) I would try and bag something with it in his memory.

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Indy,

I will follow your tone here...

You're being and idiot! Have you ever hunted long range? Do you know anything about it?
you may know how to shoot long range hell anyone can throw lead. But before you take your foot out of your mouth think about what you say.

A heavy barrel 308 is more than suitable to take deer sized game at 700 yards. I know cause I have. I also know several others who combined have taken 100's of animals past 500 with a heavy barrel 308!
If you think I am BS'ing about the pie plate at 300 I have witness'. Pay for my expenses to Camp Perry and my time away from my business and I'll be glad to come.
I think it is funny that all the competition guys think they are the only ones who can shoot. I have my own range at my home from 0-3500 yards. But that doesn't mean I feel the need to compete. It also doesn't fit into my schedule with my business. I shoot when time allows . That's why I built my own range.
I just completed 2 weeks of hunting with a heavy barreled rifle. Your comment about them being stupid shows your knowledge of accurate shooting.

C'ya

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I have seen WYOWHISPER shoot and my opion is that he is a pretty dam good shot also what is wrong with a 308



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"A heavy barreled .308 sniper rifle is a pretty stupid choice for long range shots at game. Do yourself a favor and get a real long range cartridge in a lighter rifle."

I am new to this forum, but here is my 2 cents worth (for whatever it is worth):

I don't shoot at moving animals, when the wind is up, or off-hand, but the cartridges that have 308 performance in rifles (in .264 to .308) will cleanly take deer sized animals out to 600 yards (my experience). The weight of my rigs is noticeably less than a varmint barreled rifle and I use a 284 parent case or above. But, since I use a specialty handguns (XP-100's) my MV's are lower for a given cartridge in a rifle length barrel.
These shots were made rests with a BR type stability out of guns that will outshoot the majority of over the counter rifles.
Basically, BR rigs being used in the field. It is not shooting for the sake of trying, but intentional shooting with complete expectation you will cleanly take your animal with one shot (or you do not shoot).
It involves practice in shooting at those distances from field positions. In fact, I typically use my hunting loads for PD shooting so I can get use to my rig.
Just because you don't understand it, or at the present time are unable to do it (or it is just not for you), don't doubt the motives or abilities of the men who spend great amounts of time, money, and education to hunt and shoot at this level.


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AMEN!

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WyoWhisper,

When I got to the range to fireform brass for my .220 Extremist, I noticed some fellows had put up a 15" gong at 400 yards. They were shooting at it from the bench with their hunting rifles. Occationally one of the shots would hit it.

Since, like you, I used to have my own range and did lots of off hand shooting, I decided to shoot at the gong. Because I have shot this same rifle with fireforming loads many times I knew where to aim. I turned the 6-24X scope to about 16X and shot the box of reloads. There were only four or five misses out of the twenty shots. Sue called me a show off. I was just having fun.


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I have won the wife and I our fair share of "dinners on me" because of some guy who opened his mouth before he should have.. hehehe .... but it is all in good fun...

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Indy is right on the offhand part of it. BUT the 308 round is great for tons of uses. Shooting animals either 2 or 4 legged with it has been done for decades out to 600 and beyond with no problems.

Now as to hitting a pie plate at 300 from a position other than offhand, if ya can't do that..... well you need more practice. That should be a chip shot with practice. Unfortunately I suspect that most "hunters" and lots that post here take more time typing and less shooting. I can remember before learning and practicing being amazed at 200 yard shots. Now I have a MZ that will shoot deer at 300 with no problems.

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As stated, the 308 Win is a praticularly versatile and useful cartridge. In the hands of someone special, it will score kills on a broad range of game animals. At the ranges mentioned here (500-600 yds) and with proper 162-180 grain bullets, it has an optimum game weight use for clean kills on 300-400 lbs of animal. Are there exceptions, yes.

A couple of my good hunting fraternity are trophy hunters, and you would never see them walking into a hunt with shots out at 500 plus yards with a 308 Win. Trophy hunting is a bit of a different game as most use the flattest trajectory with the heaviest bullet for wind bucking ability they can find, all the while maintaing tremendous energy for clean kills with lethal penetration. These guys shoot custom built and barreled various 7mm STW, 7mm RUM, 338-378 Wby and 338 RUM. The 338s are by far the best at delivering the complete package on big animals at extreme range (600-700 yrds). For mule deer and antelope, the big sevens produce lighter recoil then 30 mags and deliver big hits with laser beam trajectories.

The feat of killing a mature bull elk cleanly at 600 yards (Which is trophy hunting range by the way) with a 308 Win is far less likely than one who shoots one of the various 7 mags from that distance or better yet any 338 mag.

Activities such as this one are all about probability, one usually increases the odds in their favor as best they can.

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The reason I use the word "stupid" to describe the choice of a .308 for long range shooting or hunting is that there are about 30 calibers which are easily better choices.

A 30-06 is a far better choice. It has a flatter trajectory and bucks the wind better.

A .300 magnum is better still.

Then there are calibers like .270 and the 7mms. Why shoot some wimpy .308 168 grain bullet at 2600 fps (or a 155 grain at 2950 with a 32" barrel) when you can easily get 3200 fps or so with a better BC bullet?

The .308 never (I mean NEVER) wins long range championships at Camp Perry except for a few matches where it is the only allowed caliber. It's a bummer.

As for heavy barrels, I concede, if what you are really doing is shooting game from a bench rest, as opposed to carrying the rifle up the mountains. But at least get a heavy barreled rifle in a decent long range caliber.

Of course, if a certain .308 has "sentimental value," that's something else.

Don't argue with me about the .308. Just look at any ballistics tables.

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Here's why I think many (not all) of you long range guys are all wet.

I currently own four "heavy barreled" rifles--two .308s, one 30-06, and one new Tubb2K in 6mmXC caliber, which rifle and caliber currently win the long range championships at Camp Perry.

I regularly shoot these rifles in 600 yard matches. Prone. Slow fire. From a tight sling. The range is known exactly. My sights are pre-adjsuted for that exact range. I have previously fired on the same firing point. I get all the time in the world to prepare. The target never moves and is a big black circle on a white background. There are nice big range flags to help me judge the wind. Between shots I watch mirage through an 82mm spotting scope to catch faint wind changes. I even can ask the guy who shoots ahead of me how many minutes of windage he used. I also know exactly where each shot hits because a guy in the pits puts a big white spotter disk in the target. And I get five sighter shots before shooting for score.

With all these advantages, I can shoot far better than people who merely hunt at similar ranges, not because I am a better shot, but because I have eliminated many variables.

Here's the point.

On several occasions, I have put all five sighters in the X-ring, which measures 6" in diameter at 600 yards.

But on other occasions, the first shot has been a 9.

That's enough to wound a deer instead of killing it, which is why I don't shoot at deer that far away.

I know of many cases where so-called experienced hunters grossly overestimate ranges, especially in the West. Did I tell you about the running pronghorn I killed, offhand, at 600 yards? My guide said it was 600. It was actually maybe 200, and I would not have fired at all exept it was already wounded. It was running directly away. Even then there was probably a good dose of luck involved.


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If I were going to maximize the .308 for big game hunting out to 600 yards I'd look real hard at developing a load with Nosler's 200gr Accubond (BC .588) A little number crunching with quickload indicates 2600 fps MV is doable via a 26" barrel. With a proven load, practice, a laser rangefinder, and enough sense to pass on iffy wind conditions, this load could deliver an honest 1500 ft-lbs at 600 yards.

Code
Gun / Ammunition : .308 Win.
 Bullet           : .308, 200, Nosler AccuBond 54618
 Bullet weight    : 200 grains or 12.96 Grams
 Muzzle velocity  : 2615 fps
 Crosswind speed  : 10 Mph 
 Ballistic Coefficient(s) (G1): 
 C1=0.588@V&gt;0 fps;

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Range  Velo Time of  Energy   Path    Deflection    Total  Sight correction  Target
        city  flight            to    at crosswind    drop   for setting new   lead
                                LOS    of 10.0 Mph             zero range     33 fps
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
�Yards   fps     s    ft.lbs.   in.    in.     MOA     in.   Clicks     MOA     yds �
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|    0  2615  0.0000   3037    -2.0    0.0   -----     0.0   ------    -----    0.00
M   87  2499  0.1021   2773    +0.1    0.4    0.44     2.0     -0.2    -0.05    1.12
X  100  2482  0.1176   2735     0.0    0.5    0.49     2.6      0.0     0.00    1.29
P  191  2364  0.2294   2481    -3.0    1.8    0.91     9.8     +4.4    +1.51    2.51
|  200  2352  0.2409   2457    -3.6    2.0    0.96    10.8     +5.0    +1.72    2.63
|  300  2227  0.3724   2202   -13.5    5.0    1.58    25.4    +12.6    +4.32    4.07
|  400  2105  0.5115   1968   -30.5    9.3    2.21    47.0    +21.3    +7.31    5.59
|  500  1987  0.6575   1753   -55.2   14.8    2.82    76.3    +30.7   +10.56    7.19
|  600  1873  0.8110   1557   -88.2   21.6    3.44   113.9    +40.9   +14.06    8.87
  

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ok.. I get tired of this holier than thou crap.. but here goes...

Camp Perry isn't God's Proving grounds, it is a controlled environment and you know exactly what is gonna happen.. I have more respect for a guy who can go into unknown conditions and still hit his intened target with one shot.. thats what we as lr hunters strive to do.. thats why we practice in all conditions..
umm we usually hunt with a partner and he is constantly ranging the target. we have dope charts for our rifles, if not a handhelp ballistic comp. that has our rifle/load data in it.. and you can change the input data to match conditions where you are. Wind flags nope we have grass, trees, leaves, dust.. and wind meters.. we learn what all these things do in all types of wind so we can identify the wind speed.. and wind direction all the way to the target.
I passed on a few shots at 886 yards this year.. the wind wouldn't stay consisitient and settle for me so I passed.
I did however conect on an Atelope at 660 yards one shot right through the heart.. I had 3 witness' my hunting partner and I laid in the sage grass for over an hour until the right conditions and right opporuntiy was there.
LR hunters just don't go out an start throwing lead.. the real serious ones spend just as much time as you practicing and fine tuning.
Quite frankly I am tired of your camp perry crap.. it really means nothing to me as a hunter .. like I said it is a controlled environment.
If you would take the time to learn about how the sport of long range hunting and how it is done correctly you might have a different opinion of what is actually possible.

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WW

FWIW I shoot or shot Perry quite a bit. With AR15 service rifle and iron sights only. Its one of the easiest ranges to shoot a perfect score at 600 yards. I've shot more than 1 or 2 perfect scores at 600 there. Not being able to shoot well there is only an indication that you are not at the top of your game YET.

You and I both know there are tons of variables. Also tons of clear indicators to clean shots. And we pick and choose as to if or when or where. This is not war where we HAVE to shoot. And at Camp Perry if we were given unlimited time(like we get in the field) then it would be even easier to shoot tiny knots at 600. Comparisons don't bode well against each other.

You also know, as I do, that responsible LR shooters fire one shot and make a clean kill percentage wise way more often that weekend warriors(I never used the word responsible here) ever will at even 100 yards.

Point through this whole thread should be, we know we are capable and you will too, WHEN the time comes. No one should just go out and click and shoot. In fact the first thing I found out in competition is that I could shoot well enough to reliably scare the crud out of a deer at 600. It took many barrels to get it to where I can kill one reliably at that range. Now add a scope to the factor and a flat accurate wind bucking rifle and tools of the trade..... Some folks will never get it. Most should never try it.

Jeff


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Point through this whole thread should be, we know we are capable and you will too, WHEN the time comes. No one should just go out and click and shoot.


Jeff, that's the best observation and point to take out of this whole danged thing.

Thanks,




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"ok.. I get tired of this holier than thou crap.. but here goes..."

Don't get your dander up, WyoWhisper. Nobody is holier than thou. I have two points:

1. As EVERYONE KNOWS, it's easier to hit at 600 yards at Camp Perry than to hit game that far away. If a reasonably high percentage of good (Master class or higher) shooters cannot consistently hit the 10-ring on the first shot at Camp Perry, it's much more likely that they will wound a deer.

Maybe, just maybe, YOU won't, but we don't all have a 3500 yard range out the back door. What about the truly good long range shot (on the target fields) who pays $5000 to go hunt out West, and, on the fifth day of a five day hunt sees a good rack just a "little bit" out of his range?

2. If you are going to hunt at long range, why handicap yourself with a .308?


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MontanaMarine,

If I read your post correctly, such a bullet is deflected 21.6" in a 10mph crosswind.

What happens if the crosswind is 5mph or 15mph? Yes, I know you can measure it from where you are shooting, but what is the effective wind over the 600 yards, where it may be swirling around, there may be a gully, etc. What if it changes just as you shoot?

Such a condition causes a 10" miss horizontally. If your basic hold is off by 6" you get 16" and a wounded deer.


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...With a proven load, practice, a laser rangefinder, and enough sense to pass on iffy wind conditions , this load could deliver an honest 1500 ft-lbs at 600 yards.

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You're going to pass whenever you think the wind is 10mph?

Have you ever hunted in the West?

Such a practice would make you pass nearly all the time, in which case you would always be sneaking up closer, in which case you would not want the heavy barreled rifle capable of fairly accurate shooting at 600 yards in the first place.

This is just an argument to not attempt 600 yard shots with .308s.


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600 yards is a chip shot for a practiced long range .308 shooter. The right load can deliver plenty of power to same distance.

I've put 10 out of 10 in the black from 500 meters(550yds) with iron sighted rack grade M16s, shooting milspec 55gr ball.

An accurate, heavy .308 with sniping optics is easy money at 600 yards. I've made 600 yard headshots on paper human targets with boring consistency, using heavy Rem 700 and 168gr Federal GMM ammo.

I reiterate:

proven load

practice

laser RF

passing on iffy wind.


Now, personally, I'm not a long range game shooter. I've never shot deer past 200 yards. Likely never will. That's my personal choice. The intent of my first post was do call attention to a particular bullet that can eek out plenty of 600 yard killing power, via a "sniper" .308 rifle.

I'm not advising the non-practiced, once-a-year rifle shooter to grab his walmart rifle, 4X Tasco, and Green Box of 150gr CorLokt to eagerly go forth and sling lead at 600 yard deer.

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Indy

The argument against taking a 600 yard shot with a 308 is silly. But now drop the 308 part and I agree. Even though this is a 308 thread, caliber really should not come into play in the argument.

BTW if you can't dope swirling wind between 0 and 600 with a scoped rifle, you need a bit more practice. I'm not flaming you BUT there is usually even more wind indicators to watch in the field than on a range. And its really easy for anyone with a bit of work to fire 10s or xs at 600 for the first shot. You just have to practice and learn to use what indicators are out there.

But I agree with you and MM on the mart mart hunter. Or probably most for that matter. Including you. You seem to know that you are no where near the level needed to take it on. And you follow those guidelines which speaks tons for your ethics. I hope you are getting through to the masses here. The few of us that are capable enough just don't want the rest of the group howling.... But then again this thread has really evolved tons...

BTW if my hold is so wildly wobbly that its 6 inches or larger at 600 I wouldn't shoot anyway because I'm' not steady enough. Prone and with a scope any capable shooter will be able to hold on an golfball pretty easy.

Jeff


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A little food for thought/reality check:

It was noted by Indy' that the 200gr Accubond drifted 21" at 600 in a 10mph crosswind.

For S&G, running the same bullet in a 300WinMag at 3000 fps MV, results in 18" of drift at 600 yds.

A whole 3" difference in drift between the lowly .308, and the mighty 300WinMag long distance critter-cruncher.

A guy has gotta be able to make a decent wind call, or be willing to pass, with either round.

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What Montana marine stated about the .308 vs. 300 mag. is something most don't bother to consider. Actually the biggest 300 mag. advantage is that, if you sight them both so that their maximum rise above line of sight is 3" or so, the 300 mag. gives you a lot longer point blank range and a lot less drop at 600 yards. These are less important than they were before rangefinders became available.

However, sometimes you don't have time to use the rangefinder. I prefer not to. When I went elk hunting, I sighted the 300 Weatherby so that, by comparing the width of an elk's body with the distance from crosshair center to where the crosshairs got thicker, and allowing for errors, I thought I could make a 400 yard shot, but not longer. As it happened, I shot a bull at only 50 yards.


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End of season report. As promised, I stated I would let everyone know the results of the hunt.

Packing a 12-15 lb rifle on a backpack elk hunt, was a pain at first, but after 3 or 4 days I got used to it. The bipod came in really handy when setting the rifle down (I have always thought it was a hassle, looking for a place to carefully lay a rifle down when on a steep slope and you needed to add or remove clothling layers.)

Unfortunately, I didn't get a shot at an elk this year (Word of advice! When out-of-staters (texans in this case BTW), act friendly and then casually state "Where exactly are you going to be hunting? That way we will stay out of your way." DON'T TELL THEM. I did that this year and opening morning both of them where right where I said I was going to hunt. One shot and lost a bull (may or may not have met point restrictions, based upon what the hunter told me.) and the other shot and lost a cow (spooking a herd out of the drainage which contained a nice 6-pointer). Live and learn, I guess.

I did call in a calf to within 30 yards, but that wasn't what I was after (sure looked like good eating though).

I will be going after antelope next year, so I should get another chance to make a 300-400 yard shot with the rifle. To me having a rifle, that I know I can shoot shoot minute-of-angle out to 4 or 5 hundred yards is worth the added hassle of
packing the extra weight.

Thanks to all the practical advice and support from the true long-range hunters.

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A few things. First, your quote about Texans is a moot point. You are in range for me right now.......

Anyway if you are worried about a MOA rifle to 400-500 yards just get a smith to build you a rifle. You are truly a fool if you think it takes 12-15 pounds to shoot that well. You can have a sub moa hunting rifle in almost any decent caliber at 8-10 pounds that will shoot around 2-3 inches easy and much better(if you load and can shoot worth a flip) at 500 yards.

Watch those Texas remarks or I'll come find ya. And my effective range is a mile or more.


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Get 'em Rost......how's the deer hunting going?


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Hot like yours I bet. May have shot a contest winning Yote Sat. morning. Other than that a small 6 point and mosquitos.

Dad is further down the hospice road so thats taking time, but I may get to Crockett this weekend for a day or so. Rut is kicking hard again around here. Was pretty hot around Oct15, and we are coming on 28 days pretty soon. Increasing moon too.... Wished I could leave Thurs already.. Gotta take what I can get if Dads health allows it.

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Hot here as well in Mason where I hunt....89 on Sat. and 90 on Sunday...saw an incredible 6 point this weekend though.....12" brows!.....at least 21" wide....got to study him a lot and I think he'll score 130" as a 6 pt....G2's are bout 2 inches longer than his brows....I think he's no older than 3 1/2 so we're gonna let him walk although he may be a trophy of a lifetime just b/c of his brows....no movement here except for the regulars to visit the feeder/food plot....zero rutting activity....Nov. 28-Dec. 2 should be good...moon and sun rise about the same time...usually a very good time especially since the first really cold spell usually comes in that same time frame......my regards to your father.....Greg


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Hey Greg

I would think that at 3.5 if he's only a 6, he'll be a 6 or only get tiny G3s later..... I'd mount him if I shot him though. And I'd get him out of the gene pool ASAP. Had that problem in Llano along with a no brow tine problem. Got it sorted out though....

Jeff


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That is my arguement as well....if he's only a 6 now, he probably is not going to start sprouting any more points on his mainframe....can you imagine if he stays a six and what he'll look like in 2 yrs!....but I am outvoted by the rest of the clan about whether or not to take him....Do you still hunt in Llano and if not what part of the county did you hunt in?


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Got priced out in Llano. Hunted some miles south off 71. Crossed Big Sandy and took next road to the left, 308 to Honey Creek Cemetary. Down there a ways. Guy had 150 acres. We were already paying too much at 5k for the place when he doubled it. But it did have a lot of game, hogs, turkeys, deer, and it was year round. But many problems with surrounding landowners hunters...... All in all doubling the price was the best thing that ever happened. I found I can kill bigger bucks on public land in East TX at no cost, that I can draw doe tags too. And it allows my wife and I to start back to out of state trips. The year I lost my lease, I went to Alaska hunting for the first time. It won't be the last. But I did love shooting hogs all the time...

As to the 6, I"d bet a years salary he won't ever get G3s, and if so they won't be more than 1-2 inches long. What a trasher. But there are still idiots loose. I hunted years back on a place in Cotulla. Hunter shot a "old" spike. About 4 inch spikes. I could tell right away it was a yearling.... Opened the mouth and the front 3 teeth were worn flat-- I knew for sure then.... but no, the owner says its a 7 year old deer look at the teeth..... Some you can never teach.

Jeff


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Sorry about the lease here....lots of leases going way up as long as people are willing to pay, and they are....unfortunately the ones with lots of money are usually the ones who do not have a clue.....good luck with the East TX public land....sounds like you are doing okay...I hear you on the out of state trips...last November mulie hunting in NM...time of my life...and the annual trout excursion to Colorado....Greg


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Sir, I have two long range rifles. One is a .30-.338 built on a pre 1964 winchester action, and a .300 WSM built on a Nesika benchrest action. Both rifles cost around $3500 to build because turning an inch group into a half inch group can double the cost of a rifle. In 19 years of hunting the beanfields of North Carolina, My longest shot was 450 yards ranged with a Leica rangefinder off a solid rest. My thoughts are this:

First, how accurate is the rifle. An inch at a hundred is four at four hundred and the vitals of a deer can be about an eight inch circle. Four inches off center before human error is factored in is a wounded deer. Unless you find a load that will shoot a half inch or better, 400 yards is pushing the envelope.

Second, the issue of the bullet performing properly at the end lf the journey to do the job. .308 velocity at 400 yards is .30-.30 velocity and bullets with thin jackets designed to expand in that range like Nosler Ballistic Tips (try 165's) will deliver the most energy to target. Big critters, if you would be comfortable with the energy of a .30 - .30 with the shot placement you have. OK.

Last, my .30 - .338 was the old fashioned solution for getting more range out of a .30-06 which entailed taking a chamber reamer to an "06". Back when the Holland and Hollands were the only magnums in town, the Marine Corps were using the .30 - .338 in the 1000 yard Wimbledon Cup. You can sit with a gunsmith and explore the option of converting your rifle to a .300 WSM which entails recutting the chamber, and opening up the bolt face and magazine. My .300 WSM is very accurate has a lot of power. I believe the lightweight mountain rifles the big guys are marketing the caliber in do not do it the justice that a long range target style rifle does.

PS. talking about this long range stuff, I shot a buck on Sunday at 20 yards with a bow. He went 20 yards shot through the heart and fell down dead!


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I beg to differ on an inch at 100 being 4 at 400. It rarely works that way. And 4 inches at 400 is a poor group any day. A good rifle that is rebuilt should shoot around 1-2 inches at 500 yards. That will cost around 2 grand or more depending.

But your point on group size vs vitals etc... is huge. Factor in many factors of LR shooting and it takes an uncommon shooter to be able to perform. But for those that take the time 300-400 yards, under acceptable conditions, is really a chip shot these days. Bullet selection is paramount, but with the choices of the X bullet and now the accubonds, there is no doubt the bullets can perform. I"ve personally had Xs open up and hold together from as close as 50 yards to just over 800.

Congrats on the bow shot. I much prefer it over rifle hunting, but some times and places you can hunt all year and never be in the right place at the right time.

Jeff


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You are 100% correct again!!!



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Good evening, rost. You wrote: "I beg to differ on an inch at 100 being 4 at 400. It rarely works that way. And 4 inches at 400 is a poor group any day. A good rifle that is rebuilt should shoot around 1-2 inches at 500 yards. That will cost around 2 grand or more depending."

Could you clarify what you are referring to? In other posts you have said you are an exellent High Power competitor. You should know that, if you can shoot this well (or the slightly bigger equivalent at 600 yards) at Camp Perry you will not only win the national championship at 600 yards, but will set the all time national match record.

So what exactly do you mean? I would be very interested in seeing a rifle that actually fired its shots into 0.2 MOA at 500 yards and was chambered in a decent long range big game caliber.


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Quarter MOA guns are not hard to find, even in LR calibers. I had an 18# 300 Tomahawk that would routinely put 3 shots into 2 inches at 600 yds. That's 1/3 MOA and was done multiple times from a bipod... We aren't talking about competition shooting from positions, we are talking about heavy hunting or tactical style rifles set-up to be shot from the bench or bipod... CJ

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Indy

Chris has it right. Plus there is a huge difference in shooting 5 shots into 1-3 inches at 500-600 yards with a scope etc.. and maintaining that to 22 shots at 600.

FWIW I have come off the line at Perry with the only 200 shot at 600 in a match or two. Its just a nagging little thing called offhand that is my nemesis. I suspect I'd be best going to prone only and shooting a match rifle rather than an AR15 service rifle, but I enjoy the challenge so much of the service rifle. And not till I have time to set the national prone record at 600 with a service rifle and or shoot a 200-20x with the service rifle will I swap.

BTW its fairly common for hunting rigs to be made as super bolt guns and shoot 1-2 inch groups at 500 yards. Both 3 and 5 shot groups. After all how many shots do ya need on game. And if shooting a 22 shot group-- sooner or later most days the conditions will sneak in there and nip a super group.

Hope that explains it a bit further. BTW go to longrangehunting.com -- there are a handful of well documented bolt gun smiths dealing with large hunting calibers who have their work firing the size groups I mention. One smith will eventually further lighten my wallet.

Jeff


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rob p:

I consistently shoot 0.5 at 100, 1.75 at 200, and 2.75 at 300 off of the bipod (3-shot groups). The rifle is probably much more accurate than that.

I will be trying it on WY antelope next year to see how it performs at longer ranges.

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Indy

Now I may see part of my post makes sense to me.... but maybe bad to others.

First 1 inch at 100 rarely equals 4 at 400. IE most rifles are worse. IF you get 1 at 100 I"d be more willing to bet its like 6-8 inches at 400.

Hence the need for a better more accurate rifle and load. Sometimes once a good load settles in and stabilizes it won't as much as you think it should. IE its 2.5 inches at 200, at 300 its 2.5 inches. At 400 its 3-3.5 inches etc... Most rifles work the way I mentioned above though. So you have to get a good rifle.

And by being rebuilt-- I mean you can take a factory action and have about 400 bucks truing it up, and then stick on a 300-500 buck barrel, and drop it into a 500 buck stock and then if you don't know how to bed correctly can drop another 200 there etc....

Maybe that clarifies it a bit better.

Of course as noted by others, just because the gun is good, the shooter still has to do a lot of work and practice. To get decent at prone, I laid and dry fired my AR for at least an hour every nite till I got to where my muscle memory was good and things got better. But it came with the price of having to practice that hour each nite....

Jeff


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"To get decent at prone, I laid and dry fired my AR for at least an hour every nite till I got to where my muscle memory was good and things got better."

Well that's certainly one way. Most people I know only dry fire offhand, or maybe a little sitting. They take prone "for granted."

I also perceive that you probably have excellent vision and are not a big fat guy. That AR15 is too small to fit me well and, after shooting the shorter ranges all day, it's hard to see that close front sight. Of course, I tend to dwell on it too long before firing. A few years ago I could actually shoot a tighter "cone of fire" at 300 rapid than 600, because in rapid I don't admire the sight.


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You actually hit on something with 300 vs 600. I had the same thing going. Could shoot 100-5-8x almost all the time if the wind was right. But never could clean 600. Then realized I was probably shooting too slow. Thats why I started the prone dry firing. Vary it going fast, slow, etc..... and the body got used to it. And I started shooting 200s on almost every reduced course and 200s or high 190s on every full course, depending on conditions.

Wife says I'm fat though.... 180 at 5'10". Need to drop some weight. Won't happen right now though....

Prone cannot be taken for granted until you get to the top level. But neither can the rest. I was going backwards-- make sure I could clean it all but standing and then start to work hard on standing but time ran out.

As to vision. I've had glasses since I was a kid and am now 40. I have to wear knoblochs. And I have to use tinted lenses to get contrast. I can manage to focus on the front sight if smoked well and marked with a pencil. But I needed the tint to get the contrast needed to where I could really see what I needed to see. But now that I have not shot in a few years, I'd bet I'll need all new lenses....

BTW that prone practice, man does it pay off on long field shots. Lay that rifle on a backpack and settle in. I feel totally confident that I can hold on a clay pigeon with a scope out past 1000 yards. Thats a small wobble area. But then there are other things to consider past my hold of course. Confidence does help success though.

Have heard Perry is revamping the pits on Rod. That should be nice. And adding an RV park. One of these days when I get back, it'll be better than it was. In the meantime the deer will just have to watch out!

Jeff


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Rost,

One of our best local High Power shots says that the way to shoot an AR15 is to get glasses made which focus 7" in front of the AR15 front sight.

I think Perry is totally revamping the pits on Viale as well as Rodriguez. New target carriers and everything. I think this will be done before 2006 matches. The RV park is so far just an idea, but the certainly have enough space for it.

Why don't you shoot High Power any more? I quit when I was about 25 but then came back when I was 55.


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Hi Indy

Unfortunately my Dad has been a 30 year cardiac patient and the last years have been declining. Go on a 3 hour trip to go fishing and get called to run home again.... I'm the only child. Right now we are on hospice and have only a couple of days or week or so left( I truly hope anyway).

You can see where my time went to. I'm 40. I"ve got time left. And in the meantime I"ve taken to hunting out of state instead. Can't afford both. And with shooting I"d be spending major bucks all year to get ready for Perry and then possibly not be able to go due to Dad, and also let the team down. Just didn't work out. And all those thousands spent would be mostly wasted on practice.

So it'll be mostly hunting for quite a while. Though after this is all over, I may well start dryfiring etc... and just fly up for the team match day to support the team at Perry.

I don't know about focus at 7" beyond the sight, I get my general RX and then borrow lenses either side from the local opt. Take them to a match or 2 at 600 and have them swapped out in front of my eye as I'm aiming. Pick the best one and go from there. Much better for my eyes. I'm allowing them to pick what it takes on the actual range, vs a wild guess. Had taken the AR to the office of the Opt. etc... Was ok, but not the total answer.

Jeff


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Rost495,I am in complete agreement with you on this A couple of months ago I shot a 4 shot group @ 550 yards with long range rifle a 300 win mag with a match grade barrel, 3 shots were 1 3/4" with 2 touching, a fourth shot opened the group to 3 7/8" I stopped at 4 shots because th wind was getting erratic. By the same token I have a bone stock factory 300 wi that is only capable of 3 shots into 7/8" at 100yards As you mentioned long strings are more difficult than short ones



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BH,

Please post photo of jumbo, I am curious to see one with 100+ lbs of ivory. I don't get to see them that size anymore. Where did you shoot him?

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Duckster,

Just so there is no misunderstanding, the elephant ran about 60 lbs a side, not 100 lbs a side. Anyway, I killed him in the Gokwe area of Zimbabwe on 9/11/2003. I first hit him about 30 yds away. He stumbled and the PH and I ran to about 20 yds and I hit him twice more. On the third shot he was already toppling. We then ran to within a yard and I shot him in the spine. All shots were made with my M70 Win Safari in .416 Rem Mag using Rem factory loads with 400 gr Barnes solids.

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duckster:

PS Sorry about the quality of the picture, but it was over 100kb at 640x480 so I had to down size to to 320x240.

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BH,

Did you post it or PM? I can't see anything. Thanks for the details.

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Quote
End of season report. As promised, I stated I would let everyone know the results of the hunt.

Packing a 12-15 lb rifle on a backpack elk hunt, was a pain at first, but after 3 or 4 days I got used to it. The bipod came in really handy when setting the rifle down (I have always thought it was a hassle, looking for a place to carefully lay a rifle down when on a steep slope and you needed to add or remove clothling layers.)

Unfortunately, I didn't get a shot at an elk this year (Word of advice! When out-of-staters (texans in this case BTW), act friendly and then casually state "Where exactly are you going to be hunting? That way we will stay out of your way." DON'T TELL THEM. I did that this year and opening morning both of them where right where I said I was going to hunt. One shot and lost a bull (may or may not have met point restrictions, based upon what the hunter told me.) and the other shot and lost a cow (spooking a herd out of the drainage which contained a nice 6-pointer). Live and learn, I guess.

I did call in a calf to within 30 yards, but that wasn't what I was after (sure looked like good eating though).

I will be going after antelope next year, so I should get another chance to make a 300-400 yard shot with the rifle. To me having a rifle, that I know I can shoot shoot minute-of-angle out to 4 or 5 hundred yards is worth the added hassle of
packing the extra weight.

Thanks to all the practical advice and support from the true long-range hunters.



Man you're making friends left and right!! These out-of-state hunters that you take issue with contribute hundreds of millions of dollars to our economy each year. I think you should thank em and ask them to come again next year. Thousands of small businesses in Colorado thrive off these folks. Also, with over 300,000 elk in this state it is not like we have to worry about elk numbers decreasing any time soon. Out-of-Staters are good for conservation and our economy.

As for carrying a 12-15 pound rifle to hunt elk......................that is your choice, but you can carry a 7 pounder that will be just as accurate.

The gun below is 7 pounds, with scope, sling, etc. and it shoots better than .5" with factory ammo. You can kill things all day at 500 yards if you do your part, so why kill yourself with a 15 pound gun. Build a 7 pounder and be done with it.

[Linked Image]

The guy that built this gun is from Colorado. Go down and see him, he will build you one hell of a gun that you can carry all day long. Pm me if you want his details.

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Buffhunter is this the same ellie? I have been researching African hunts and came across this photo of the same ellie I think.

[Linked Image]

Better picture here

http://www.steynsafaris.com/Images/photos/HP11.jpg

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BH:

Click on the attachment from my post containing the details.

Poot Peat:

Personally, I don't make a dime off of out-of-state hunters.

Although they do contribute to some of the mom-and-pop grocery stores and gas stations, most of the money winds up going to the state government who IMO simply wastes it (currently got a big story going on about this little girl who was reported missing by her father a few weeks ago. Some government worker went there to check on the family's status to continue getting housing assistance which prompted the report. The police think the girl was killed a year or so ago. Turns out the family took a vacation to Walt Disney World several months ago, so they cops went there to see if they could find the girl on any of the hotels security videos. That's pretty typical of state spending, giving money to family to pay for their housing, yet the family can take a trip to Walt Disney World!)

As far as out-of-state hunters, I shared the woods with 3 hunters from Wisconsin (sp) a few year ago and they were really decent guys. We all stayed out of each others way. I gave them some tips on the lay-of-the-land and they dropped by and left me some home-canned preserves! Nice gents.

You are right on the ellie!

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Poot Peat:

BTW that is a sweet looking rifle. What caliber is it?

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It is a 270, but the guy that built the gun also builds 338's and 340's in a 7.5 pound combo that shoots lights out. They come with a muzzle break, to take the sting away, but they shoot. My hunting partner shoots a 340 wby built by the same guy and it is a consistent half inch gun with 250 A frames and 210 partitions.

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