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Jeff_O Offline OP
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Originally Posted by rost495
The only way to make this world safer is to do away with electricity.

Of course thats not going to happen. And right now we are focused on ONE incident thats going wrong. Not on the fact that there are how many other plants that DON"T have anything wrong....

On the topic of solar being unfeasible cost wise... I have but a single question.... costs here run about 20,000 or so to put enough up to power a house almost all the time. There are rebates to cut that in half but lets just say there were no rebates...
Electricity will be like gas, will not do anything but go up in price over the years.
Figuring one can easily have a 300 plus dollar a month electrical bill... assuming it all stays the same we are talking appx 6 years to break even. I think most solar cells last a hair longer..... batteries I"m not sure... but bottom line there, you could technically save more, if not, spend the same amount as electricity, but without the use of production of power via other methods...

Bring the Raid on for me anyway. We need it, unless we intend to move back to no power, ride horses etc....which actually, other than no AC in this miserably azzed hot state I live in, wouldn't be a big issue personally.


Jeff,

"Miserably hot"... lol... can I quote you on that to my wife? She's been on a roll lately for wanting to move somewhere like southern AZ or NM or TX, because the winters here get her down... I keep telling her, having grown up in NM, that the problem in those places is that summer sucks! grin

If I'm reading you right you showed the numbers for break-even on solar? Interesting. Around here the break even point is so far in the future that it really makes no sense... over 20 years if I remember right. Had a tech looking at an older system installed on a house a client was looking to buy... the numbers the tech talked about were uninspiring to say the least (in terms of my clients putting up new solar equipment). About the time the system breaks even, it's worn out!

The angle I'm approaching this from at this time isn't one of using alternate sources, though that's certainly interesting. Right now my points are:

- this technology is incredibly dangerous when stuff goes wrong, and stuff does go wrong.
- it's yet another example of us foisting our problems onto future generations, and I'm tired of that kind of thinking.
- looking backwards at the amount of public subsidy so far- which I've seen quoted as 150 billion in two articles now- and considering that we get 20% of our power from nuclear, I think it's VERY arguable (and defensible, lol) that that same 150 bil spent on power grid upgrades and greater heating/cooling efficiency in buildings would have netted us that SAME 20%. In other words, we could be using 20% less energy and not have these ticking time bombs generating unmanageable waste, sitting around everywhere.

-and looking forwards, I am arguing that we'd be better off appyling the next 150 bil, if indeed we are going to spend this public money on energy subsidy, on things like the above, rather than on more ticking time bombs generating more waste we can't get rid of, and deferring more nightmarish cleanups to future generations.

Alternative energy sources are another conversation. I agree that the magic bullet, the obvious solution, does not exist.





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Originally Posted by Jeff_O
Also, for those pro-nuke, would you accept a plant 20 miles away from your home?



I have a nuke 10 miles from my home, give or take. I kill ducks in the NH salt marsh with the reactor in the background. So yeah, I do accept it. But then, we're not located on the ring of fire...

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Jeff if you want to argue that nuclear power is somewhat more expensive than advertised when you include subsidies and decommisioning costs while ignoring fossil fuel pollution costs I agree with you. The nuclear power industry agrees with you too. http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf02.html

Safety is a separate case. If you want to call an industry that powers 15% of the planet yet hasn't released meaningful radiation off site in the western world since the 1950s ants using raid, time bombs, unapproachable by humans, incredibly dangerous, unmanageable, etc. it's on you to show it with numbers instead of additional adjectives.

Nuclear power will never be safe as long as plant workers have to drive their cars to get to work.

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I don't base my opinion on 40 year old plants built on 60 year old technology.


The older I become the more I am convinced that the voice of honor in a man's heart is the voice of GOD.
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Jeff_O Offline OP
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And yet, we are littered with the [bleep] things. The decommisioning cost will be astronomical. Then y'all can pay for it as a surcharge on your electric bill- just like I do!

The promise of this kind of this- nuclear power, genetic engineering- is "THIS time, we'll get it right!". Not buying it.


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Yes, Jeff use adjectives.

Now what would you call your "western" world sentence.

Trying to avoid Chernobyl are we?

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Lets just all go back to the dark ages....only way to keep the idiots happy. Stop using electricity and all fossil fuels. crazy the hand wringers are all messed up!


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Go read how Chernobyl was designed and what they did to it to make it fail. Just as well compare against Hiroshima for all it means against designs used by civilized countries.



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It might be good to decommission some of the older reactors and replace them. AND REPLACE THEM!! Nothing wrong with new technology.

I think they should make one style advanced reactor and make them all the same I think it should be like a class of submarine, everything is in the same place and works the same. A type "A" reactor in St. Louis is exactly the same as one in Atlanta, to the letter. We should be able to take any technician from any company rated for that reactor type and drop him in to run it.


The older I become the more I am convinced that the voice of honor in a man's heart is the voice of GOD.
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Jeff_O Offline OP
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It's nice to know that worst comes to worst, we can always use diapers on our melted-down nuke plants......... whistle


The CENTER will hold.

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FÜCK PUTIN!
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Originally Posted by Jeff_O
It's nice to know that worst comes to worst, we can always use diapers on our melted-down nuke plants......... whistle


speaking of ants and raid.....you can't let it go can you...


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Jeff_O Offline OP
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In further news, it's also very comforting that should such a disaster unfold around one of our nuke plants, in between sending "jumpers" in to plug the leaks with diapers the utility will offer "condolance money" to those in the several hundred square mile area who just lost everything. Condolances for your loss!

As an added bonus, since no utility can bear such an unfair burden, in the finest tradition of "make money until there's a nasty problem, then when the SHTF crawl off to the government to cover your ass...."- the debt incurred by such an accident will be essentially nationalized! How cool is THAT!

Yep, this nuclear power bidness is just coming up roses across the board.........


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FÜCK PUTIN!
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China ain't scared.

'The People's Republic of China has initiated a research and development project in thorium molten-salt reactor technology. It was announced in the Chinese Academy of Sciences annual conference on Tuesday, January 25.' The liquid-fluoride thorium reactor is an alternative reactor design that 1) burns existing nuclear waste, 2) uses abundant thorium as a base fuel, 3) produces far less toxic, shorter-lived waste than existing designs, and 4) can be mass produced, run unattended for years, and installed underground for safety."

Chinese energy demand is growing rapidly, and despite the world�s largest campaign of new nuclear construction, the vast majority of Chinese power generation still comes from fossil fuels. China has abundant supplies of coal, but their combustion has led to some of the worst air quality in the world. The ability of thorium MSRs to operate at atmospheric pressure and with simplified safety systems means that these reactors could be built in factories and mass-produced. They could then be shipped to operational sites with standard transportation. Their thorium fuel is compact and inexpensive. Chinese rare-earth miners have been rumored to have been stockpiling thorium from rare-earth mining for years, and if this is true, the Chinese will have hundreds of thousands of years of thorium already mined and available for use.

The Chinese now have the largest national effort to develop thorium molten-salt reactors. Whether other nations will follow is an open question.


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Originally Posted by Jeff_O
Originally Posted by rost495
The only way to make this world safer is to do away with electricity.

Of course thats not going to happen. And right now we are focused on ONE incident thats going wrong. Not on the fact that there are how many other plants that DON"T have anything wrong....

On the topic of solar being unfeasible cost wise... I have but a single question.... costs here run about 20,000 or so to put enough up to power a house almost all the time. There are rebates to cut that in half but lets just say there were no rebates...
Electricity will be like gas, will not do anything but go up in price over the years.
Figuring one can easily have a 300 plus dollar a month electrical bill... assuming it all stays the same we are talking appx 6 years to break even. I think most solar cells last a hair longer..... batteries I"m not sure... but bottom line there, you could technically save more, if not, spend the same amount as electricity, but without the use of production of power via other methods...

Bring the Raid on for me anyway. We need it, unless we intend to move back to no power, ride horses etc....which actually, other than no AC in this miserably azzed hot state I live in, wouldn't be a big issue personally.


Jeff,

"Miserably hot"... lol... can I quote you on that to my wife? She's been on a roll lately for wanting to move somewhere like southern AZ or NM or TX, because the winters here get her down... I keep telling her, having grown up in NM, that the problem in those places is that summer sucks! grin

If I'm reading you right you showed the numbers for break-even on solar? Interesting. Around here the break even point is so far in the future that it really makes no sense... over 20 years if I remember right. Had a tech looking at an older system installed on a house a client was looking to buy... the numbers the tech talked about were uninspiring to say the least (in terms of my clients putting up new solar equipment). About the time the system breaks even, it's worn out!

The angle I'm approaching this from at this time isn't one of using alternate sources, though that's certainly interesting. Right now my points are:

- this technology is incredibly dangerous when stuff goes wrong, and stuff does go wrong.
- it's yet another example of us foisting our problems onto future generations, and I'm tired of that kind of thinking.
- looking backwards at the amount of public subsidy so far- which I've seen quoted as 150 billion in two articles now- and considering that we get 20% of our power from nuclear, I think it's VERY arguable (and defensible, lol) that that same 150 bil spent on power grid upgrades and greater heating/cooling efficiency in buildings would have netted us that SAME 20%. In other words, we could be using 20% less energy and not have these ticking time bombs generating unmanageable waste, sitting around everywhere.

-and looking forwards, I am arguing that we'd be better off appyling the next 150 bil, if indeed we are going to spend this public money on energy subsidy, on things like the above, rather than on more ticking time bombs generating more waste we can't get rid of, and deferring more nightmarish cleanups to future generations.

Alternative energy sources are another conversation. I agree that the magic bullet, the obvious solution, does not exist.





Personally I"m all for all uses to generate power, wind, water, waves, solar, nuclear, fossil fuels etc....

Subsidy wise, REA was the original, and i"ve paid more than my share of rural rates to get power all over the country side so I just toss subsidy issues out the window generally speaking.

I could check on costs for solar at some point again, but I have to go to a larger town to inquire, we don't have anyone for solar installations in a town of 4500.....

Yes the solar will wear out the panels and batteries, but then again so do power plants...

As you note, nothign is free or lasts forever.

Once again I'll simply mildly mention what I dont' think I"ve seen you reply to, though I certainly could have missed it.... our coal plant pollutes and kills, thats proven and a daily given. A nuke plant is only an issue IF there is an issue. Seems like to my way of thinking the nuke is still far ahead. Like I"ve said, the nuke is like getting on a plane. You are on the wrong one it'll suck for all involved, but how many are wrong? Way more than nuke plants anyway, but still not many.

You ahve to pay for what you want one way or another.

Plus I figure there isn't anything to guarantee my safety from every other thing in life, and that if I factored in deaths due to nuclear issues vs life of everthing else that comes at me, the nuke margin of death would be WAY WAY WAY smaller chances than anythying else.. way smaller than getting struck by lightning as an example too would be my guess.


We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Jeff_O Offline OP
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Good point Jeff!


The CENTER will hold.

Reality, Patriotism,Trump: you can only pick two

FÜCK PUTIN!
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Originally Posted by rost495
[quote=Jeff_O][quote=rost495]...


...


As you note, nothign is free or lasts forever.

Once again I'll simply mildly mention what I dont' think I"ve seen you reply to, though I certainly could have missed it.... our coal plant pollutes and kills, thats proven and a daily given. A nuke plant is only an issue IF there is an issue. Seems like to my way of thinking the nuke is still far ahead. Like I"ve said, the nuke is like getting on a plane. You are on the wrong one it'll suck for all involved, but how many are wrong? Way more than nuke plants anyway, but still not many.

You ahve to pay for what you want one way or another.

Plus I figure there isn't anything to guarantee my safety from every other thing in life, and that if I factored in deaths due to nuclear issues vs life of everthing else that comes at me, the nuke margin of death would be WAY WAY WAY smaller chances than anythying else.. way smaller than getting struck by lightning as an example too would be my guess.



Natural Gas is very clean and abundant.

Nuclear waste may not last forever... but it comes close


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Nat Gas will not abound forever though either.

We have the technology to make nukes really safe, and without much waste to speak of.

As I've said, I have nothing against fossil fuels at all either, just let me use every gun in my safe, I didn't buy them all to sit there. Same thing with energy, lets use it all/and develop more as we go. Lets not limit ourselves... limiting creates issues.

And I for sure did not say kill everything else and go to all nukes, just that they shoudl be part of a large plan/formula.


We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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