Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles Powder suggsetion for short barrel

I am reloading for a 30.06 with a 20" barrel. What would be some good powders. I have tried IMR 4350 and IMR 4064. The IMR 4064 is really working well. The IMR4350 is not. Any other suggestions with an 06 with a 20" tube?

H748, Bl C2, 4895. Might even try 4198 with light (130) gr bullets. (works great in the 300 Savage & 308).

Sure you're aware a short barrel on a long action and case with the capacity of an 06' are not a match made in heaven.

Depending what the action is, there may be many takeoff 24" barrels out there at a low price. Then you could use the 4350 which is IMO the best 30-06 powder.

Good shooting!

Tube length shouldn't play into your powder choice....

True that. What works best in long tubes also works best in short tubes......Just a little louder.

Agree. There is no replacement for a longer barrel.

...............You load for your 20" barreled `06 the same way as if it had a 24" barrel or a 26" er. If your rifle with its 20" tube doesn`t care for IMR 4350, it wouldn`t like IMR 4350 even if you had a longer barrel. Aside from more noise, the only thing shorter barrels do is reduce overall velocities by very small percentages.

Contrary to Tupolev`s opinion above, your 20" barreled `06 imo, makes for a powerful rifle packaged in a shorter and handier OAL. And because of its shorter length, it is also a nicer carry around rifle. Imo, that is a match "NOT" too far from heaven.

If some are of the opinion that the 30-06 has too much powder capacity for a 20" barrel, then I`m in real big trouble then, because my 375 Ruger Alaskan has a 20" barrel. For accuracy, performance, handiness, carry around etc, that 375 combo is very close to the pearly gates. I also happen to load for my shorty 16.5" barreled 300 WSM Frontier carbine exactly the same way as if it had a 24" or 26" barrel. I consider a 35.5" long rifle which can equal 24" to 26" tubed 30-06 AI ballistics, very efficient and extremely powerful for its handy and smaller size.

Some like to carry around, shoot and hunt with shorter and very powerful rifles chambered in rounds that have greater powder capacities. As long as one wears good hearing protection at all times, rifles with the shorter barrels are wonderful in the field.

Your `06 is just fine as is. To determine what your rifle prefers, just keep on experimenting with a variety of powders and you`ll be fine.

wilkshunter - You might try H414. Some of us have had very good accuracy using that powder in the '06. I've had great results with 414 behind a 165 gr. Sierra or Hornady.

Dave

I may be way off in my thinking, but I would think barrel length would play a role in your powder choice. Maybe JB, Aussie or one of the other writers will chime in.

Seems to me that if you had a shorter barrel a faster burning powder would be benificial. Again, im only guessing, but you want all the powder to be burned before the bullet leaves the barrel. If you had a slow burning powder that was effecently being burned in a 24 or 26 inch barrel, it might not all be burned at the 20 inch mark. Thus causing excessive muzzleflash, which I would say doesnt hurt anything, but may be leaving FPS on the table. Were if you burned a powder that was effecently burned at the 20 inch mark then you would be wringing all the FPS available. I may be wrong in my understanding of powder performance.

Badley is 100% correct. For the same reason 2400 is a bad choice in 3" 44 magnum

According to Handloader magazine, H414 and W760 are the same powder.

Contrary to what Big Squeeze say: A 375 Ruger will only meet its ballistic claims with powder we cant buy. It is a 30-06 length action with a 20" barrel because the gunwriters have concluded that two or four inches of barrel length will prevent you from hunting in tight cover. You know following up that wounded Buff in the thornbush that we all do on a regular basis........
Funny thing is PHs who DO, DO that and use bolt guns don't appear to be hacksawing down their 416 Rigbys right and left.
For myself, I am left to wonder how I killed all those Whitetails in the woods of upstate NY with a 26" bbled 870 12 gauge.
A 20" barrel belongs on a 94 carbine, a 22 on a nice light Kimber 308/338. a 24 on 30-06 class cartridges and a 26 (or more) on a rifle for longer range shots in the hotter medium and small bore magnums.
If you must have a short rifle for whatever reason, buy a single shot or a double/OU.

Also, contrary to a previous sage, barrel length, all other factors held constant, does impact powder choice.
Just a simple example: The highest velocity load with a 130 TSX in my 22" 308 W 99F is with 4198 @2900 fps.
Same bullet in a 308 W in a 26" bbl M70 Target is 200 fps faster with Varget or 4895.

The longer the barrel the easier it is to hold steady or swing if tracking moving targets.
It's also a lot easier on your ears.

There is a reason why almost all of us who shoot Sporting clays a lot have 30, 32 and 34" barrels in spite of some targets traveling at 40 mph, being the size of the top on a Micky D's coffee cub and quartering right at you. Getting hit with a BATTUE target is not as bad as getting run down by some big animal but it still smarts. Guess we should all switch to riot shotguns eh ?

And a CZ 505 African Magnum comes with a 24" barrel and a real Magnum Mauser action. Have yet to read a PHs or DG Guides ripping it up because it's too long (46.5") or too heavy (10 pounds) As another sage opined:"It's a fight stopper".

Now the clincher. I do own a 20" barrel 30-06. It is a BOSS equipped M-70 (23.5" counting the BOSS) and it's a tack driver with almost any 30-06 load. (Yes Virginia The BOSS really works, I never use the vented one) Also have a 24" bbled 721 30-06 that is also a tack driver with about 5 loads. My favorite 721 load (59 gr 4350, 168 TSX) is a velocity dud in the M 70. BUT 51 gr of Varget & the 168 will almost catch it up.
(these are both +P loads developed for a specific rifle yada, yada, yada).

If you're gonna keep the rifle you need a Chrongraph and friends with a broad selection of powder. For hunting in the parts of NC I have seen (Ashville area), I'd sell it an get a Kimber 84 in 308 or a Savage or Marlin in 308 for fewer bucks.

Well, my experience is different than what Badley suggests. Powders that performed best in longer barrels also did the best in shorter barrels for me. I don't know, YMMV.

The common notion that faster powders will work better in shorter rifle barrels is wrong, primarily because all the powder that's going to turn into gas does so inside the first few inches of a barrel. (Muzzle flash is not unburned powder kernels flying out of the muzzle, but hot powder gas re-igniting when it hits the oxygen of the atmosphere.)

The same powders that get the highest velocity in longer rifle barrels get the highest velocity in short barrels too. If you want some proof, look at various loading manuals that list the same cartridge data in both rifles and handguns. You'll find the same powders getting the top velocities in both, or at least powders in the same burning rate range--slow
for the cartridge and bullet.

The least amount of velocity loss in a shorter barrel is typically with heavier bullets and slow powders.

Thanks for setting me straight JB.

.............Badley.............First. A rifle barrel length of 20" or even down to 16" shouldn`t play a role in determining what powder is used or should be used. As with any rifle, the rifle itself decides what it prefers for best accuracys, whether the powder be a slower burn or be a faster burn.

It is logical to assume, that if using a slower burning powder in conjunction with a shorter barrel, there will be more unburned powder granules which exit from the muzzle. There is NO unburned powder. Instead, what we see exiting from the the shorter barrels are the "remaining leftover gases" or what is known as muzzle flash. All the powder granules, whether from a slower burn or from a faster burning powder, is consumed upon ignition before the bullet exits the barrel. Compared to the faster burns though, the slower burns will give a larger area of muzzle flash.

As far as leaving fps on the table? Well, based on extensive chrony testings, my little shorty 16.5" tubed carbine, runs on average only about 4.5% behind two 24" barreled 300 WSMs that were also tested side by side along side my carbine using the same identical loadings. By comparison, the OP`s 20" barreled `06 would give up less a percentage to a 24" tubed 30-06.

Will leaving 4.5%, 5%, or even 5.5% in overall velocity on the table, cause anyone not to be successful in the field given the same killing ranges? I think not. The game won`t know any difference.

[quote=tupolevtu95]Contrary to what Big Squeeze say: A 375 Ruger will only meet its ballistic claims with powder we cant buy. It is a 30-06 length action with a 20" barrel because the gunwriters have concluded that two or four inches of barrel length will prevent you from hunting in tight cover. You know following up that wounded Buff in the thornbush that we all do on a regular basis........
Funny thing is PHs who DO, DO that and use bolt guns don't appear to be hacksawing down their 416 Rigbys right and left.
For myself, I am left to wonder how I killed all those Whitetails in the woods of upstate NY with a 26" bbled 870 12 gauge.
A 20" barrel belongs on a 94 carbine, a 22 on a nice light Kimber 308/338. a 24 on 30-06 class cartridges and a 26 (or more) on a rifle for longer range shots in the hotter medium and small bore magnums.
If you must have a short rifle for whatever reason, buy a single shot or a double/OU.

Also, contrary to a previous sage, barrel length, all other factors held constant, does impact powder choice.
Just a simple example: The highest velocity load with a 130 TSX in my 22" 308 W 99F is with 4198 @2900 fps.
Same bullet in a 308 W in a 26" bbl M70 Target is 200 fps faster with Varget or 4895.

The longer the barrel the easier it is to hold steady or swing if tracking moving targets.
It's also a lot easier on your ears.

And a CZ 505 African Magnum comes with a 24" barrel and a real Magnum Mauser action. Have yet to read a PHs or DG Guides ripping it up because it's too long (46.5") or too heavy (10 pounds) As another sage opined:"It's a fight stopper". quote]...........Excuse me? Excuse me? And excuse me some more! Where to start with this one!

Quoting Tupolev........"A 375 Ruger will only meet its ballistic claims with powder we can`t buy?"...OH REALLY? Tell me then Tupo. What exactly are the ballistic claims (in velocity numbers) that the 375 Ruger cannot meet?

Quoting Tupolev........"It is a 30-06 lengthed action with a 20" barrel because the gunwriters have concluded that two or four inches of barrel length will prevent you from hunting in tight cover?"......Produce for me then any sources, which quote ANY gunwriter stating that,,,,"two or four more inches of barrel length WILL PREVENT you from hunting in tight cover."...I`d like to read any quote by any writer who stated as such. Instead, we will read easier maybe, but not,,,,"will prevent."

Quoting Tupey....."A 20" barrel belongs on a 94 carbine."..........Oh yeah! Now you may want to think that and that`s ok, but I`ve got some news for ya. There isn`t one darn thing that any longer barreled 45" or 46" OAL 375 H&H rifle can do, that a 20" tubed 375 Ruger chambered in a 40.75" OAL rifle package could not also do, and do so on any similiar game given the same killing distances.

Quoting Tupey......"If you must have a short rifle for whatever reason, buy a single shot or a double/OU.....With all due respect, how does one say,,,,,,"you are so full of crap",,,,in Russian?

Another quote......"Also, contrary to the previous sage (try PAGE), barrel length, all other factors held constant, does impact powder choice. Just a simple example: The highest velocity load with a 130 TSX in my 22" 308 W 99F is with 4198 @ 2900 fps. Same bullet in a 308 W in a 26" bbl M70 Target is 200 fps faster with Varget or 4895."...........All other factors held constant you say? Oh really? Seems to me that your factors ARE NOT held constant enough because your barrel length for the Varget and 4895 was 4" longer @ 26" vs the 22" barrel length when you were using the 4198. Next time, try getting your chrony results using the same barrel lengths.

Quoting again........"The longer the barrel, the easier it is to hold steady or swing if tracking moving targets."........Well that is just a matter of some good `ol fashioned practicing now isn`t it!

One more quote from Tupey......"And a CZ 505 African Magnum comes with a 24" barrel and a real Magnum Mauser action. Have yet to read a PHs or DG guides ripping it up because it is too long (46.5") or too heavy (10 pounds)."........And we probably won`t read of such. But in that same regard and flipping things back to you. Can you produce any story, or any quote, from any source, whereby any writer, DG hunter, PH, or guide did in fact rip a 20" barreled DG rifle because it was too short and not heavy enough???

Your arguments against the shorter barrels are strictly emotional ones and based on personal opinion of what cartridges should only be fired from shorter barrels. You have not and cannot produce any evidence whatsoever, whereby any accuracys are lost, nor large amounts of velocity loss either.

Pop Quiz!......Off the top of your head Tupolev, and without signs of pressure, please tell me what my maximum velocities "should be" from my 20" barreled 375 Ruger Alaskan using powders that,,,I CAN BUY. Your guess for a 225 Horn SP is? Your guess for the 260 Nos AB is? And for the 270 Horn SP is what? After you answer those three with your best velocity guesses, then I`ll post my powders, the charges and the chrony results for each bullet. And also while we`re at it, try taking some good guesses as to what the max velocities "should be" in your opinion, using a 155 gr VLD, a 168 gr VLD and a 190 gr VLD fired from my 300 WSM carbine with "ONLY" a 16.5" barrel. I`ll also post those results in the same way.

Guess well my friend! Try giving it your best shot!....

Hey, it's a free country. If you wish to shoot short, loud unbalanced rifles you have that right. I have no "emotional" investement in barrel length ..... my family and dog are way ahead on the "emotional investment scale"

I am not really concerned about your velocities. Big game cartridges, especially DG ones should operate at low pressure. The Brits figured this out a long time ago and they are still correct.

But if it works for you that's great, just like the guys who take on Elephants with revovers and Buffs with sticks and strings.

I await a Utube presentation of you shooting your 16.5" 338-378 Weatherby........
won't need any artificail lighting !

........................Yes. It is a free country. And I read, that you assume that my rifles are un-balanced? Ever used one or both of the same two Ruger rifles of which I happen to own? More than likely not. So your "assumption" of being un-balanced, is purely a speculative guess by you! But then again, you don`t need to see or handle what I own because afterall, you are quite the expert.

I can also see that when asked to answer some questions about velocities, you duck the issue. If you`re going to falsely speculate and offer your so-called expert opinion about shorter barreled rifles of which you don`t even own and more than likely have never chrony`d as well, you should at least answer the questions as a matter of substantiating your own credibility. Or! Are you one of these guys, who just types things out on a keyboard, and then when directly challenged by someone who actually owns the rifles of which you know nothing about, you decide to duck the issue.

Not concerned with my velocities? Oh! So you cannot answer the questions uh? Kinda had a feeling you wouldn`t. You`re like a hit and run artist. You hit first and then when disagreed with and directly challenged, you head for the hills.

And by who`s rule "should" DG cartridges be only operated at low pressures? Yours? Hmmmmm! Using max loadings even in 100 degree weather in the desert, I`ve never had any difficulty with bolt lift or had any difficulty in cycling my Alaskan`s bolt. But! You be the expert!

And just to show how un-credible at idiotic you seem to be; you equate guys taking on elephants with revolvers and buffs with stick and strings, equal to that of a hunter using a 20" tubed 375 Ruger to take on the same game? That is quite an idiotic and very dumb statement. Just so happens that the 375 and 416 Ruger Alaskans have quite a successful track record in Africa and in other parts of the world. But! Facts to you, especially those facts you wish to disagree with, is like kryptonite to Superman when you are challenged. You did a very good job,,,,of skating the issue in your last post.

I suppose that you can produce some evidence, some field reports from a PHs, DG hunters, who did use a 375 Ruger in the field in Africa who failed to make a DG kill on buff or elephant with a well placed shot? Of course you can,,,right?

Using the same factory loadings, only about 65 fps seperated my shorter barreled Alaskan from my friend`s 23" barreled 375 Ruger African. But since your the expert, I`m sure that you`ll state, that the extra 65 fps from the Ruger African will make all the difference between success and failure when it comes to DG? Perhaps you can tell Ruger that, tell Hornady that, as well as informing all the other 375 Ruger owners of your expertise.

Of course you are not concerned with answering my velocity questions because you were called out on the carpet.

And you won`t see a U tube presentation of me shooting my 338-378 Bee with a 16.5" barrel. Here`s a fact for ya. With its brake, it has a 28" barrel. But you already knew that because you are quite the expert! Right?

I have several .30-06 rifles, including a Winchester M670 carbine with a 20" barrel. Shoots the same loads as my other .30-06's. Gets about 50-75 fps less than 22" tubes, and 75-100fps less than 24" tubes. The carbine really loves Ramshot Big Game with 150 gr bullets. My other '06 rifles like Big Game with 150 gr bullets.

Your mileage may vary......

Several years ago, I purchased a T-C with a 10 inch barrel in .30-30 caliber.

I also thought I would need a fast powder for the 10 inch barrel. I wrote Sierra for advice. They told be the same thing that Mule Deer just said, slow powders for rifle cartridges, regardless of barrel length.

Muzzle blast was, well, noticable.

Same experience here. I use the same powders regardless of barrel length. For a direct comparison I shoot an Encore in 260 with a 24" and 15" barrel. Same powder gave best results in each.

I have two EARLY 700 carbines w/ 20" bbls and although slower powders give higher velocities, neither will shoot (group) worth a rip with IMR or H-4350 or 760 and various 130,150,165 or 180 gr bullets. With these powders,some groups are two inches plus. I tried H-4895 and IMR 4064 and bingo-less than an inch for multiple groups. Granted these are not at optimum velocities (3000 fps with the 130 T/shock and 2750 fps with the Hornady 165 FB), but I'm looking for accuracy and those loads are potent enough for deer.

All I can figure is that maybe the slower powders are producing higher muzzle pressure and it is disturbing the bullet base right at release. That's what I've found with my two carbines, your results may differ.
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