Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game Congrats To John Burns!

After following many of the John Burns bashing threads and the "Let's Meet In Montana" thread, I want to give a shout out to John. You were man enough to show up and prove yourself to others. I don't even care how you shot, but you did prove that you can shoot, but you showed up. You have my respect and your naysayers need to STFU. I'm not a long range shooter and really have no interest in developing those skills but I sure appreciate a man of character. Way to go John Burns!

any link to what you are talking about IE a match and results?

You've been here for 2 months, mostly puffing Cor-Lokts, and you're telling everyone to STFU?! Really? Um....OK....

rost, just ask the guys that shot with him in the "Lets meet in Montana" thread what their impression of John is. However, I feel that the only answer you will accept is the one you want to hear.

And just to clarify, I don't have any opinion of John Burns one way or the other. I just can't understand some of the things people say/do here. It's just odd...

No not at all. I think you have me totally mispainted here. I have no beef with John other than what he charges for a rifle. ANd that fact that he indicates its the only way to go. When in reality there are other ways to do it htat have worked for years, and are actually a bit, IMHO, better rather than dialing in 600 yards and then taking off X clicks due to conditions, I'd just as soon dial it in after my calcs give me the answer.

I've never said he couldnt' shoot either.

I simply wanted a link as to where was this match or get together thing... now I know what to look for and will see if I can do a read up on it.

Bottom line for my complaining about greybull stuff... when you sell a rig for 6000 bucks but it can be done as well or better all day long with a 3000 dollar rig, I think you'll see. Of course I don't drive a BMW etc and never would, there is no need for prestige with me. You need enough to get the job done but no more. And no I'm not saying well a 30-30 would work then...
BUT John has a right to charge what he wants. We just have the right to say folks, its advertising you don't have to spend that much if you don't want to.

I don't think that there is anything odd about giving props to a guy that has been grilled without mercy concerning his rifles and then turning into personal insults aplenty. When the gentleman from Montana offered up the idea of a long range shoot there, John showed up and from the sound of things, represented himself and his equipment very well. My point was that he had the character to put his reputation on the line in a real world shoot. Good for him. Without going into a long history lesson John has challenged his detractors to prove their rifles and skills. Put up or shut up was my take on the whole deal and John had the character to put up and others did not according to the names that I have read listed on the "Let's Meet In Montana" thread. I re-read my OP and I did NOT tell "everyone" to STFU. That was meant for John's group of personal critics.

Naysayers=everyone who disagrees. You told them all to shut up--even though, as you just admitted, you weren't there to even see how Burns handled himself.

So who are you? His kid brother? Wife? What?

Nope, just someone who can read and can recognize BS when I see it. Just like I can see that you are are an [bleep] and don't have any ability to reason. Which is why I'm now done with your sorry self because you are a mental midget and are not worth trying to have a civil discourse with.

Name calling? Always a good move.

You can read? Um...good for you.

You can recognize BS? Oh, I never doubted you!

(You shouldn't have repeated the verb "can" if you meant to say that you can read and recognize BS. But, what do I know--I'm a mental midget!)

C'mon Rost, you can add a lot better than that. Sure GAP sells rifles for $3500, sans optic though. The Greybull comes with a scope that will cost you a cool grand to duplicate. I guess you should be calling it a 5K rifle.

Waders is a good guy. Easy now.

I'll toss in my props to John Burns for showing up and shooting as well. Virtually everyone here would have only their ego to "lose". John, showing up with one of his rifles, has a whole lot more than that. Ballsy. Good on ye, John!

He showed up with two rifles, a .264 Win. Mag. and a .243 Win. And trust me, he knows how to use them.

Everyone got along great, shared info, idea's and swapped many hunting stories. And we fired many thousands of rounds...if all of us met back out there under perfect conditions there wouldnt be anything left of that steel.

Lets see, won 1000 yard matches here before, with an AR15 that cost me under 1500..... bolt gun that will shoot knots.... really no need for a synthetic stock, but just because, and a much better than B/C as Mc stock, 500. Action. 300. Barrel 300. Cost to barrel. Around 300 plus or minus. Bed action to stock, put on mounts and scope. Fire away. No need for fancy scopes or reticles or 1/3 moa clicks, simple target scope with knobs. Or sans that... lets just say I have one gun I have no more than the above invested in it, without target knobs but the knobs have a zero mark and click... and so far, the 308 has handily dinged stuff to over 700 yards. 2500 or less easily with optics. Actually less. Groups... not so great though, 2s at 100, and best I've dinged so far in a gusty wind once at 726 yards off the top of a mule, has been 3 shots into 4 inches. Appx measure, group in cactus leaves and measure with tape, not Ct/Ct.
It really is a lot of Indian and not so much of arrow. John is a Chief. Has a good arrow, seems as good as anyone elses out there. And is a hell of a salesman.

Down side? Making folks think they can drop 6K or more and be an overnight shooter. If someone dials the dope in like on the shows, and says shoot, it really only takes a decent shot to make a good shot. Its learning what the dope should be, that will cost you way more than 6K over the years, and it won't be 6K of rifle that makes the arrow fly straight.

To add when I say here, I meant 1000 yard matches in TX.

rost says......"If someone dials the dope in like on the shows, and says shoot, it really only takes a decent shot to make a good shot. Its learning what the dope should be, that will cost you way more than 6K over the years, and it won't be 6K of rifle that makes the arrow fly straight."

Agree 100%.

Whoopdephuckindoo, give that man a medal for doing what he said he'd do. Since when did going by your word become so significant that it deserved praise?

Burns vs Stick? Is that the match?

BS was probably too busy taking pictures of himself to show up.

That is what it's all about...good times! Burns contributes to the 'fire, and is just a guy selling a product & trying to make a living. Those that cannot understand that, bitch to your nail tech......not here.

Well at least John likes great Cartridges......... *Grin*

This was really about some guys getting together and doing some long range shooting and that's what we did. There was no competition. No one put down anyone elses gear. No one was trying to force or pimp their gear out on anyone else. We all learned a lot, shot a lot, and had fun.

+100, so simple that some folk will never get it...

Sounds like it was a fun time!

I took a woman out deer hunting a couple of years ago. She had shot two rounds TOTAL through a high powered rifle before the season to get a feel for the trigger. She is not a shooter at all, but knows how to squeeze the trigger.

I found her a nice 4x4 mule deer buck at 535 yards. I sat her butt down over shooting sticks, dialed the nobs to 535 yards and told her to kill it. Perfect shot, 7mm-08, 120 grain bullet went through both shoulder and exited. Buck dropped and was dead. She did not need all that fancy computer calculation crap you talk about. Dial it and kill it. It really is that easy. I have done it more times than I can count.

Two weeks later, I took another non shooter deer hunting. He hasn't shot any high power rifles, but again, had great trigger control. I found him a buck at 481 yards. I laid him down prone, dialed the nobs, a couple of clicks for wind, range 481, and told him to hit the switch. Perfect shot, dead deer, .25-284 100 grain Barnes XLC.

No, I don't shoot animals at 1,000 yards, nor do I shoot Bench Rest. 700 yards is my personal limit on game. Range, dial, squeeze, punch a tag. You make is sound WAY more complicated than it is. Flinch

243 win?

Sure whatever. Evidently youv'e done it all.

+1 million !

Your funny...but...I do like the .243 too.

Best cartridge ever! And better than your feminine 6-BR your building. AAhhhhh!!!

my 243 is sweet. my 300rum is mean

Thanks to all for the nice posts.

Rost495,

Jeff you really seem to have a hard on for me and my rifles and pricing.

How about you and I get together and you take that silly attempt at a long range hunting setup you have been working on for a year (Douglas Barrel set up for 180gr VLDs) and have us a little shoot??

You have struggled with making 180gr VLDs shoot for one hell of a long time and at some point you need to quit running your mouth and my stuff down when you have been totally unable to set a simple 7MM up for long range hunting.

You seem to have no ability to actually set up a long range rig and I for one am really sick and tired of you acting the pro with absolutely no qualification.

Put up or shut your yap buddy!!!

Times are changing and it seems like you meet more and more guys that can't live by their word or their word means chit because they don't do what they say. It's too bad, but it happens more now than it ever has. I'd also like to say kudos to John for showing up and making the best of it. Sounds like you guys had a blast. Too bad I live so far away!!!!!!!

I think since the internet came out when writing checks your ass can't cover jumped exponentially.

Burns,

Gotta tip my hat to you...good shooting.

I admire people who can back up the talk.

Not sure I am ready to drop 6 large on one of your rigs, but at least they shoot....

Tony

You certainly seem to turn into a damned peacock on a multitude of topics. You may know, have seen and done a few things, so given your background, you don't even come close to representing the majority of the shooting public.

You're a consumer and you have the right to buy or not to buy. So don't buy one of his packages but quit [bleep] harassing the dude on how he earns his living.

you wont see me spending $6,000 on a rifle like what John builds.....but thats mainly cause if i had $6,000 to blow you would find my arse on a plane heading to Australia to whack and stack critters with what i have.....

if he is selling rifles for $6,000 it means he has buyers to keep him busy at $6,000.....if i could figure out how to sell ad space in my papers for $50 a column inch i would do it in a heartbeat to hell what anyone thinks bout value for the money.....its a business, you tend to price chit at a price that keeps you in enough customers to live how you want to live...or as close to that mark as possible....

If Burns came out with a limited edition rifle and called it the "Big Stick"........I think I'd pee myself

I'll have it ready for the next shoot!

Who cares what the man sells his rifles for? This is America. If there is a market for his stuff then he's doing something right. The man has proved his stuff is good and he can shoot. Let it go.

Just checked out the pics, looked like a lot of fun! Wish I coulda been there

Best quote of the day!!

Wish I could have been there to you all shoot.

Whoa, there Flinch. That's not the whole story. You claim that it isn't that hard. If you have good range information, an accurate rifle that can be dialed properly and a good solid shooting position, fine..... so far. But, if the wind is blowing even a little bit, that separates the experienced shooters from the those that aren't. That can easily cause a miss or a wounded animal.
Living in the west, I'm sure you are aware of this.
I'll go on to say that I don't own any $6000 custom built long range rifles either. Almost all of my serious big game rifles are custom built and they are capable of making those 400 yd. plus shots. I've done it with them often enough. But I also know my limits as a shooter in the field, especially when the wind is blowing or I'm out of breath with a pounding heart, or the critter is too far and moving, etc. As I'm sure you do as well. E

Yeah, your probably right and that's too bad. I remember not so long ago when a guy could take another for his word, still know quite a few that I can take for their word but times they are a changin it seems. Everyone's an internet badass these days.

...and you haven't....obviously. You have nothing good to say about anyone but yourself. It gets exhausting to say the least. Let's see all these records and wins you yap about all the time. Paper punching ain't long range hunting. You are a legend in your own mind...and nobody elses.

I have posted tons of pics about my kills....yet you have nothing. You can BS the fans, but not the players. Keep trying though.

It is as easy as "range, dial, squeeze". Maybe not for you, because you can't do it without all the gadgets and mental exercises, but for those that can, it ain't hard. Flinch

Range dial and squeeze eh? No wind accounted for. Simply says a lot.

BTW I think you all have changed my mind. Charge what ever the [bleep] you want to.

Maybe that way we'll see 10 dollar a gallon gas too in the future.

I think this country is way further down the tubes than I had originally thought and evidently money is the king and be damned to everything and everyone else.

What are ya, anti-capitalism?

Folks charge what the market will bear, and competition serves to keep sellers in line. A gas station COULD charge $10/gal tomorrow but they won't sell much gas when the guy across the street is at $4/gal.

From the cheap seats here it seems that John is offering not a rifle/scope per se but a guaranteed system. If I were the type to spend $6k on a warrantied-to-shoot rifle & scope with the load work all done for it, which I ain't, I would at this point give John's rifles serious consideration.

Anyway I'm not getting involved in this other than to say that for a rifle company representative to show up, product in hand, and lay down on the ground and shoot with the unwashed Internet masses <grin> is ballsy. Dude has a bad day shooting, and what's the long-term cost of that?

His rifles are worth what somebody is willing to pay for them. I dont know him, I dont know about his rifles. I dont care to, if he can sell them for what he's charging then more power to him.

....the unwashed internet masses....now that's funny. Never heard it put that way.

Jeff - you are spot on regarding the potential effect of a poor performance in front of your customers, seen similar situations really make or break a business. In that regard, kudo's to John. Actually don't know him at all but just looking in from the outside I figure most of the negative comments are sour grapes from those that begrudge the success of others.

+1.

The man has a legit business in the gun industry and good for him!

last time I checked, America was a free enterprise system.

No one forces anyone to buy his system. But anyone can if they choose and that's the real beauty of it.

The price is just one part of why John catches crap. The "not willing to talk specifics" gets him a few giggles.

The only wind to account for comes out of your pie hole, so no, I don't need to account for it.

...."range, dial, squeeze" did you miss the DIAL part? There is a windage and elevation dial on my scope. Do you have one, or did that go over your head too? Yup, your reading comprehension and skills still suck. Dial windage, dial range...idiot. Pull your head out of your asss and pay attention.

Now that you know everything and have given up on society, you can go away....please...for the sake of everyone that actually knows a thing or two.

SO where are all these records and kills you have? Still don't have any? Didn't think so. Run along little boy. Flinch

Maybe these builders below should catch "crap" also from the 'Wallmart Whiners...

Rifle's below come with NO scope, No load development, No mounts.

McWhorter rifles, $3995.00 - $4695.00
http://www.mcwhorterrifles.com/GunRackPages/243Caliber/243Winchester.html

Hill country rifles, $1995.00 - $5995.00
http://www.hillcountryrifles.com/catalog/2/custom-rifles-in-stock

Surgeon rifles, $4200.00 - $4800.00
http://www.surgeonrifles.com/products/rifles-in-stock-ready-to-ship/

curious......did John Burns let anyone else shoot his rifles?

Yes, several people shot his rifles.

I shot two of them.... he shot mine...

That may be so but those who harp on the "price" and "enabling wannabe's resulting ass shot mayhem" need to GTFU and STFU.......IMO.
Guess now I know why gas is so high. The Petro industry followed Burn's lead.

Ya know, I don't tend to post braggin pics all over the internet because it just doesn't bother me. And I think its rude to brag. Why should I have to prove myself, there are more than a few here that know me and have seen me shoot. I don't have time for your little crap, but there is a bunch more to shooting long range shots than just dialing the info in. First you have to know what the info is. THats not an overnite thing that just any joe can do by picking up a well built rifle.

But to quell your little bitching session, I found a few items to take a few pics of last night. There is more and its still boxed up and actually there are more plaques that have been boxed up. And htere are plenty of copies of match bulletins RE shooting.

My suspicion tells me that you won't believe what I"m showing here anyway, but what the hell, lets put it up since you think I aint' never been anywhere or done anything.

John, even though I disagree wiht pricing as you are well aware, my sincere apology for dragging this off topic. And my apologies that I simply don't have time to travel and shoot at this point in life. Give it a few years to catch up, we'll go play, I have had too many family deaths and that has taken too much time in family care and the resulting being way behind in taking care of properties we own. Jeff

Theres enough for me anyway.

Those are some nice dust collectors!

Sculptured carpet?? Now I can understand why you think John's rifle is overpriced. Cheeep..cheeeep.cheeeep.

Don't be dissin' the high-low shag!

Mr. Rost,

congratiolations on your life achievements as a rifleman.

It is clear to see, very few can match those.

There is however the point of Mr. Burns pricing -

all you are looking at is component costs.

Good business practice is to take all costs you had -

R&D
training
components
smithing
load developement
sighting in
marketing
networking
...

basically everything product related you have spend money, time and/or knowledge/thought on

+ your return of investment

sum it all up and divide by the # of units projected to be sold.

Then you have a price which you can then test on the market.

That considered Burns rifles (which are rifle/scope/ammo combinations) are a bargain in my eyes considering, that Mr. Burns seems to be able to pick any rifle from the "ready to be shipped rack" grab the ammo and hit targets way out there -

meaning the units are dialed in.

Sure can such a rifle be build cheaper - but only if you are willing to count the hours ezc. needed as hobby time.

I do not blame Mr. Burns for chosing not to do that in his line of business.

edited

Holy Crap!!!

What a pile of trophies, I couldn't help posting my own, few people here know of my prowess with a gun...

That's almost as nice as the leg lamp on the Christmas Story.

Rost, thanks for your service to our great country. It appears to me you most certainly know what you're doing. Congrats.

about what I expected. Want proof. Show proof, make fun.

Evidently I am expected to not have an opinion on things, yet everyone elses opinion that I"m wrong is fine.

Cool with me though, what I love still about 24 hour, we can agree to disagree and go on to the next subject.

Carpet and all.

JG, make no mistake, I have never been in our military service. I simply had the honor of competing with a lot of military shooters. We are certainly extremely lucky to have the folks we have in the military. Doing a job many don't want to. For pay that few would accept. And doing it out of an obligation to God and Country. One can ask for no more.
Wife and I were both recruited when we were younger as shooters but it was not for us. I regret that too at this point in my life, but its too late.
Jeff

Jeff
Yeah, well like maybe, you know, you can like shoot, you know, but lots of those are like, you know, just competeing against, you know, other shooters for like scores and stuff. It isn't like you can you know shoot on the internet.

Flinch :Verb: Make a quick, nervous movement of the face or body as an instinctive reaction to fear or pain: NOT the trigger movement you want to represent in a simple long range shot.

rost495 : 495. Score out of a possible aggregate perfect total of 500 points. Fired in a ODCMP sanctioned leg match. No sighters allowed, iron sights out to 600 yards. I'd have to look it up but generally no more than maybe 10-15 of those scores fired in a year, less in leg matchs on average is my guess. Enters one into the NRA 99% club as that is the percentage score you just fired.

One a good representation of the ability to shoot. The other, a nemesis to perfection of the trigger activation technique.

Haha, the Walmart Whiners. Didn't realize we had a bit of class warfare going on here.

I've shopped at walmart, does that make me poor, low class, and lacking in nice things? TFF..

My bad, just checking records on 495s in leg matches... since 2004(as old as the records I could find online) there have been 10 scores of 495 or higher fired in competition.

Nah, you ain't poor or low class unless you have "cheap" carpet.

Whew..!

Nice collection of hardware Jeff, kudos to you sir. That should shut ole Flinch up.

[bleep], I Don't know. Post was not directed at you anyway Calvin unless your a continous whiner that keeps harping on JB's rifle amount.

Rost, upset about my carpet remark huh(sorry)..... Gimme credit, I refrained from mentioning the wall paneling.

Calvin,

A small group of loud whiners hardly constitutes catching much crap.

Funny how none of the gigglers/whiners showed up for the shoot.

Come to think of it there were a few, shall we say, �knowing smiles� if someone said something about Paradise Alaska (wherever that is) or something called a �Montucky� (whatever that is).

Say weren�t you working on a 270 WSM for LR shooting?

You were gonna order some VLDs and kinda stretch it out, if I remember correctly. Post some pics for us if you get the chance as I am sure you were not just runnin your mouth and trying to stir up schit.

Rost495,

Shooting highpower matches is not hunting. You may or may not be a holy terror on the KD range in Texas, with an ar-15, but that doesn�t buy expertise in the field.

My point was and still is you have dicked around with your �Cheaper� 7 MM for a hell of a long time and it won�t shoot 180 VLDs worth beans.

You have a right to an opinion but I for one will file that opinion where it belongs.

As a side note I am glad you found a thread in which to post all of your Trophy pictures.

My day is now complete.

Ya don't have a clue how much I have not dicked around with the 7mm actually... no clue at all. Lets just say not more than about 36 projectiles of the 180s fired at this point. Less than 50 of 140s and 150s. Probably around 75 of the 160s. Trying to find the groove of an unproven round. Had I simply wanted the most accurate round out there in a more or less LR rifle, I certainly would not have played or started with this one. I'd have gone the 6.5 route to start with. Or the .338 route. 7mms are known for throwing flier issues the faster you drive them. 7WSM seems to be an exception for some reason... short and fat possibly following the ppc route?

Hell at the time I didn't know I'd have to be building a gun to entertain John Burns, I thought I could play with calibers I wanted to for grins.

But thank GOD I have a place to post photos now. I've been waiting on that since we transitioned from Shooters some years ago that you may not have even been aware of. For that I thank you. I actually had my computer set on search begging for someone to beg me for photos of some medals and such.

Of course since I don't have that much time to mess around with loads and shooting anymore, the obvious answer is greybull. I"m well aware of that.

Yes he did. He let everyone that was there shoot them.

Went through a LOT of ammo, too.

Very impressive results.

For a guy that did not enjoy messing around with all the minutia of working up a LR gun themselves(the time AND the money), John's guns are a high quality alternative.

Just because it might not be for YOU doesn't mean it doesn't work, or it's not on the level. Believe me ,John's guns are hammers!

But does the carpet match the drapes?

I like everyone in this thread, but if I could photoshop, I'd place a little teeny human next to that target, to imply that it was huge...

Thank you for saying what I tried to say but apparently don't have post count enough to lay out my case for some. I apologize to you John for opening up an old can of worms and letting the stink out. I guess that the mere mention of your name seems to incite some individuals. My post was never about your business. It was always about the fact that you showed up and put your reputation on the line while others choose to let the internet do their talking. Again, I applaud you and you have earned my respect (for what it's worth....not much on here, grins) for being a stand up guy. Action speaks louder than words and your action spoke volumes about character. That shoot looked like a lot of fun, even in bad weather. It almost makes me want to start long range shooting. No, not really but it did look like some cool shooting to go with the cool weather.

John: Nice shooting, what a crappy day. The farthest I have shot is about 1700 yards. If I remember, I doped about 57 MOA in a 7WSM. I assume you were using your BDC? Your 6.5 is running about 3200 fps? giving you about 1100 ft in a single revolution of your BDC? Did you count MOA's past the single revolution using a PDA? What do you feel really comfortable w/ the BDC under really good conditions? I visited w/ Don a couple of times at your shop, he was very helpful about your stock, which I really like by the way. Congrats

Having a little fun.

plus he has got to pay for the mules he has,,,


i know what good mules cost,,,,,

LMAO, good one. Wish I coulda made the trip up, just to observe and learn. And take a few pokes at an even mile.

Do not forget liability insurance.

When I lived in the 'States, my doctor filled me in on how much he had to pay for liability insurance, and I became aware that liability insurance was quite a sizable fraction of the final cost for many products & services.

I suspect that a pressure vessel which was designed to be used inches from one's face and which has to contain more than 60,000 psi would be associated with high liability costs.

John

YOu are correct, when I was rethinking the thing, it dawns on me, his liability could be really high working with firearms and reloaded ammo. He makes a mistake and it could be deadly. Probably not cheap at all.

Jeff

That's a big chunk o'steel! What kind of vessel is that off of?