Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Custom Rifles & Wildcats ULA accidental Discharge

Had a AD at the range last week.

Rifle - ULA M28 with a brand new Timney trigger installed by Mel.

Was bore sighting and loaded a round to send down range. Pulled trigger and nothing, oops safety on. Reached up with right hand and flicked it to fire, BOOM.

On this and I believe all ULA/NULA�s you can move the safety lever from fire to the middle position to unlock bolt and unload BUT���

If you move it this middle position from the fire position and try to fire the rifle you will feel the shoe move and hence the sear move, when you now push the safety forward the sear is already released and BANG the firing pin drops.

I know it seems like quite a sequence but it can happen.
To repeat--

If you move the safety from fire but don�t bring it all the way back to safe and somehow the trigger gets touched and you then move the safety to fire, it will FIRE.

Can other owners of NULA/ULA rifles try this before I do or say anything.

Thanks!

Dave

I wouldn't ask anyone to try anything. I would get it back to ULA asap.

I tried it on my two CF NULA's. Only thing I find is that it will fire in that "middle" position, and that doesn't surprise me because it ain't in the "safe" position.

I'd give Melvin a ring in the morning.

In a related situation, last week I had a local 'smith "lighten" the pull on my XP100R. No big deal I thought as he is very qualified (?) to do it.

Well, I have a problem. Once in a while when dry firing I get a discharge when flipping the safety to the "fire" position. It won't be shot again until a Rifle Basix trigger is installed by SOMEONE else.

I dont think the nula is a three position safety as in the middle position you are referring to
the safety is designed to be pushed down to release the bolt when on safe and not be put in the middle position which is or can be fire
I have three nula rifles and know what you are referring to as it does feel like a detent on the safety in the middle position
My take on this could be wrong maybe cal Melvin and ask him just to be on the safe side

Gene

Gene- I agree but the fact is there is a middle "stop" on the way back.

I will call Mel but I have a hunch I know the answer......

Although I haven't fired mine much yet, I always thought the safety was a 2-position and never thought there was a "middle position". I just thought it was similar to the old Remington where it either locked the bolt on safe or was on "fire".

The NULA safety is indeed a 3-position, but the 3rd position has nothing to do with any "middle" of the safety-movement.

When the safety is all the way to the rear (no-fire, bolt locked) you press DOWN on the safety, as if trying to push it into the stock. This keeps the mechanism on safe, but unlocks the bolt so the handle can be raised and a live round extracted WITHOUT pushing the safety forward.

WOW. Great to know since my 8-yr old son will be inheriting the 250AI ULA. Thanks for that. Now I'm going to go try it.

Damn! That is cool. It works.

Just as an aside...or actually back on topic....I tried to replicate the AD as described by Daveh and did with my old ULA 250AI (1986). But with the NULA 257AI (2003), I could not find anything that felt like a detent in between fire and safe. But on both NULA and ULA, the bolt locks in the safe position and cycles when I press the safety lever down.

Too old to learn something new every day...but today was an exception.

ETA: If I hold my mouth just right, I can stop the safety lever in between safe and fire on the NULA. But the firing pin did not drop when I moved it to the fire position. I tried it several times pulling the trigger before moving the lever and not pulling the trigger and it would not drop the pin when the lever was moved to fire position. So I guess it's a crap shoot. Also.....neither of mine will fire if the lever is in the not-supposed-to-be middle position.

Yeah, I have never had a safety-push AD with a NULA, and have fired thousands of rounds through at least a dozen of them. So something is wrong with the OP's rifle, and it should go back to be fixed.

Went thru this again tonight---
If you pull the trigger with the safety all the way in the rear position and then move the safety to fire it will not drop the FP.

If you push the safety back from the fire position it will want to hang about 2/3 back and if you don't continue the movement full back and pull the trigger than push the safety to fire it will drop the FP. In this scenario you can feel the sear move and you know (after doing this experiment 10-15 times) what is going to happen. If you move the safety back to the full rear before pushing to fire then it will not fire.
You can push it down just like Mel designed but when you do this it does move slightly forward. I have owned three of these and none have been as positive and firm as I would like.... I like concept but the examples I have seen haven't been stellar.
I'll call Mel and see what he says.

Called Mel. If you have spoken much to Mel, He knows what he knows.

He said there is no �detent� between safe and fire. I insisted you can feel resistance. He explained that you are bringing the detent ball out of the pocket and rolling it to the fire detent --AND- in between lifting the sear. This means I am feeling the sear lift as the �spot� at 2/3rds back.

He said it is just as designed.
I agree and don�t like it.
Like I said I have owned a couple of his customs, several Colts and dozens of other makes and models and �for me� I don�t like how this �feels�.
I want a safety that swings back and forth stiffly but smoothly.

I�ll probably see if I can improve it some�.

why dont you try it without the bolt locking feature and see what happens I would think it would work just like a typical remington trigger set unless you dont like that either not a gunsmith by any means but it might be worth a try or is Melvin saying that the bolt locking feature has nothing to do with the issue you are having




Gene

I read this with concern, I had the same thing happen with a ULA MZ last winter while hunting, It was very cold 15 or so degrees with wind and snow, I just chalked it up to cold wet conditions and maybe a frozen sear...I took aim at a doe thumbed the safety forward and slowly pulled the trigger what I noticed was the trigger shoe moved but the gun did not fire, OK somewhat surprised I reached up with my thumb and touched the safety to make sure it was off upon touching the safety the gun fired..thought it had broke my thumb took a nice chunk of meat off the side..I tried to replicate this several times but I couldnt get it to do it again..Oh yeah missed the deer clean.I really dont care for a sear block timmney trigger..I wonder if melvin can replace these with the newer trigger block saftey from timmney ? I have a model 28 and have shot several hundred rounds thru it without a hitch and the MZ has never repeated this situation but it is always in the back of my mind !

Tried to duplicate the firing on mine and so far it wouldn't fire. Most times I can't get it to stay in any "middle" position. It just flicks to the fire position and as yet the hammer has not dropped. Wither I pull the trigger while on safe or not.

Not a fan of the "detent" override when putting the gun on safe, so I just lift the bolt if I don't fire the round, and then bring it back to safe. No pause in the middle, it just smoothly goes to the safe position.

Addition: There is only ONE safe position on the Nula. ALL the way back.

David, I had concerns, didn't like the whole safety design against either a Jewell or new Timney or Shillen. I eliminated the whole bolt open design issue by using one of the above. Dick

This has been an interesting and informative thread. I especially appreciated everyone's acceptance that a problem could exist and should be looked into. This is a refreshing change from the usual safety "discussions" that sooner rather than later degenerate into complete condemnation of anyone who feels that a safety should be expected to perform some actual function and the indirect praise of the French MAS as the greatest rifle design of all time.

David,

One other thing. My Nula took a saltwater dumping in AK. I should have cleaned it, but didn't and three months later the hammer would fall when I pushed the safety off. Took it to Mr. Forbes and the trigger was a mess. Quite a bit of rust. Just a suggestion, take your action out of the stock and take a look if you have not already done so.

David,
my model 20 ceter file will do it if I pull the trigger when the safety is between half way and all the way forward and then move it forward

my rimfire wont duplicate it

I guess I will have to make sure it is all the way forward when pulling the trigger nice to know but have never had an issue with it util I tried it after hearing about yours

Gene

Just a FYI - this is a brand new trigger as I asked Mel to set the pull to 2.25lbs which is what all mine are and he stated that I should replace the older Timney with a new unit which is able to be safely set lower (CNC machined). Not sure about that as this one will only go 2.5. Ok but not sure it's better. I might Install a Shilen.

Point being - this a brand spanking new assembly.

With that trigger the only safe position is all the way back. Start pulling the trigger in some intermediate position and you are asking for trouble.

I can do the same with a Model 70 if I get it in just the right position. Safe on, bolt free to unload the rifle, but I have to work at it.

I get the feeling that some folks think I am trying to make a mtn from a molehill so I did a 15 second video that clearly shows this "spot" is similar to a detent and the other bad thing is it's almost all the way to the rear.
I'll have it uploaded Monday. I think anyone with an open mind will get it,

Great, I would like to see it, and you are making an assumption that I think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. I just said that pulling the trigger when the safe is not either on or off is asking for results which you don't want. Pretty much a basic precept of firearm usage. If that in someway offends you, ask for strength to stop bearing imaginary burdens.

As far as the "detent" both of mine have it and I would bet the third being made up presently will also. It is just how it works. Also for me that pause when I bring the safety back has become a tactile clue that the rifle is not on full safe until I bring it all the way back. Something that I personally take as a positive.

I also indicated how to have it not be there: Just lift the bolt and bring the safety all the way back. Mr. Forbes said this is perfectly fine.

This is the first time you have mentioned the pause is almost all the way back. Mine are approximately half way back. You have now changed the circumstance and description of the situation.

If you fell the necessity to make a video to prove your point, have at it. But so far you have only described a safety that works as it is supposed to, and perhaps even more importantly, doesn't work when you try to operate it in a manner in which it was not designed to function. Again there is only one safe on that trigger. All the way back.

I personally don't care if you like or don't like the Nula safety. If possible get it changed if not.

Perhaps there is something in this for all of us, no matter what rifle we use.

If we pull the trigger and the rifle is supposed to fire yet doesn't, then something is wrong. We should stop and figure out the problem before we nonchalantly go on our way thinking nothing out of the ordinary just occurred.

battue- it wasn't just you but I have learned that someone doesn't agree with it's ok and I can learn about folks and their core values by listening.

BTW-twice in this thread I mentioned it's 2/3rds back and because of that it gives the visual illusion it's on safe. After this thread I won't have a problem and didn't before as am a zealot regarding firearm safety.

Additionally this is what is called an error precursor or simply an accident waiting to happen. Just because it hasn't doesn't mean much.

Standby on Monday...

Dave,

Will be looking forward to the video.

Now truthfully I think I know where you are coming from. One brings the safety back and it stops at the hesitation position, therefore one may think the safety has been placed on, and go on there merry way without bringing it all the way back.

The push down feature to unload was new to me on my first one. I must have played with that safety off and on for at least an hour to familiarize myself with its function. It how I discovered you could just lift the bolt and bring the safety smoothly back on.

In the field, when we are putting the safety back on the game is over for that moment. Just take the time to override the middle hesitation, there is no rush. Then check it often as I'm sure we all do.

However, if you show me you pulling the trigger when the firearm is not on safe-or in the so called middle position-and then pushing it forward and the hammer falling, I can only conclude that was improper use of the safety. It can be nothing else. The firearm was never on safe. That is our responsibility.

In effect this subject was inappropriately headed. That never was an AD. AD for me is when the rifle goes off because of nothing I did. In this case it was operator error. And yes I too have been guilty of operator error in the past.

When working with safetys, I don't think that it is possible to be over cautious. Several years ago, I worked as a gunsmith, and except for firearms brought in for re-bluing, most were defective in one way or another.

Knowing the firearm is defective, whether it is a safety, too long firing pin, or worn part, you soon learn that not all parts are going to work as they should. How about a .22 self loader that fired when the trigger was pulled, then fired again when the trigger was realeased. The safety worked as it was supposed to, but it did not prevent the gun from firing when the trigger was released.

How many normal, everyday shooters have ever seen a trap gun with a release trigger? Probably not many, and I cannot think of anything much more dangerous if you are not familiar with a release trigger, and do not know the gun is so equipped.

Probably the most scary gun I ever worked on was a bolt action M-S made sometime in the 50s. It had a double set trigger. When the trigger was set, or unset as the case might be, or the safety on, you never knew what it was going to do, whether fire when it was supposed to, or not fire, then fire when the trigger was released, or when put on safe, or taken off safe.

The point of what I am trying to say is that it seems like the OPs safety is not working safely. It might be working as designed, but with the detents he describes, and not being to tell when it is in a safe condition or not, then I would say it is poorly designed.

I would not want a gun where you had to work the safety in a combination to determine whether or not it was on safe, and then, after working the combination, still not knowing if the gun was going to fire when I touched the safety.

Fiddled with it this morn..... Again....
Removed the trigger and outside of the action it felt like it should, no "spot"must safe or fire.
Put a Rem 700 trigger in it and no "spot" but the 700 shoe is to far to the rear of the TG and no worky without grinding and I'm not doing that.
Interesting exercise.....
Video tomorrow if I can get it loaded at work.

I had a ULA circa 1997 that had this exact problem and it scared the heck out of me. I tried to get it fixed by Mel during the whole Colt debacle and Mel could not work on the rifle for a few months due to the situation with Colt. I got frustrated and sold the rifle. That said I got two other NULAS since then 2003 and 2008 and neither one will do this with the safety...

bump

As I noted earlier, I've been around at least a dozen NULA's over the past 20-some years, and my wife and I have three right now. None of them have ever showed this sort of hitch in the safety, which is why I originally suggested sending it back to Melvin.

I still do. I don't think he is grasping the idea when it's explained over the phone.

M.D. I agree. I can't understand why all the discussion, the safety/trigger unit has something wrong with it. No gun should fire without a finger on the trigger, any kind of accidental discharge is totally unacceptable. I'd send the gun back to Mel.

I am going make sure I haven't missed something and then send it back but Mel shot the rifle before sending it to me and Mel did the work.
Additionally he was INSISTANT there was nothing wrong.....
The video is still on hold as i took it with my Panasonic camera so it's a .MOV file and huge.

bumping this for a thread on the rifle forum....maybe this adds some clarity or muddys the waters more....anyway here you go

Call Jack Belk...

I have a NULA 28 in 7x61 S&H. I recently took it from the safe and opened the bolt to check the chamber. When I closed the bolt quickly, it didn't remain cocked! I took it to good gunsmith who adjusted the trigger mechanism and the rifle is fine now. My rifle has been fired a great deal over the years, mostly for load development. The second barrel is worn to the point I'll soon be sending it back for the third, and hopefully last barrel.

Trigger has never been touched on this rifle until recently. As for the safety, I've never had a problem, but I seldom use a rifle safety, preferring an empty chamber until I need to load a cartridge.

I understand this is a "Timney" trigger? If the trigger was not modified, I`d call them.

I would rather have no safety at all than one that "sits" between safe and fire allowing partial sear movement when the trigger is pulled. A safety that does that is either faulty or a terrible design. The safety should not be able to be left anywhere other than safe or fire (or safe/bolt locked, safe/bolt unlocked, fire in the case of a 3 pos).

The scenarios that have been described are invitations for AD's while in the field. Any rifle exhibiting that behavior needs to be fixed. I imagine, and hope, there was a misunderstanding of the issue over the phone.

It only sits where the user allows it to be. When you put it in safe, safe is all the way back. Fire is all the way forward. If the user allows it to be any place else, it becomes user error. I posted an easy way to do it. Then users have eyes to verify position. Any safety is either on safe or on fire, and there is a positive position for both. A Nula isn’t any different.

When you use your rifle, whatever it may be, do you consider safe some other position than the way it is designed? Do you visually verify that it is in its proper place?

Now if a safety malfunctions when properly positioned that is another issue.

Nula on safe, that's it, it will not go back further:




Nula on fire:





There isn't any in-between or middle. If it is not all the way back, you have allowed it to be there. It is your error and you are close to going live especially if you diddle with the trigger when you think it is on safe. Mentioned it prior, there is a leaning curve with a Nula. Those who can't invest the 15-30minutes to figure it out, should use something else.

Waaaaay too much common sense applied, Battue. Waaaaay!! LOL.

There should be no position in which the safety can be left that allows partial sear movement. Period. If this is how it is designed, it is a bad design. It is not a matter of understanding how it works and being able to make it work for you. If you shoulder a rifle and squeeze the trigger and it doesn't go bang, the only way it should discharge after that is with another trigger pull. If the rifle's safety allows partial sear movement in any position that can result in discharge without a finger on the trigger, there is a problem.

You are correct. I would hope that anyone could figure out how a safety works on a given weapon with minimal time invested, certainly less than 15-30 minutes, even. That doesn't change the fact that a rifle should not discharge without a finger on the trigger. I don't have any NULA experience. I don't know I this can typically be replicated on them. I do know that many have designed safeties that have no possible middle ground without actively holding the mechanism between the safe and fire detents.

If you can park the safety somewhere between safe and fire and get partial sear movement by squeezing the trigger, something is wrong. Sure, the obvious remark is that you do not ever squeeze the trigger with the safety in that position. That is not a realistic expectation, especially on a hunting rifle. Things happen. Ending up in a position where the only way to unload a rifle is to slide the safety forward allowing it to fire is not acceptable, even if you are aware of what happened. It would be very easy to be unware and have an AD in the heat of the moment.

The same can happen with a Remington and a Winchester Model 70. Especially the 70 with a little past middle. Just a little past middle, touch the trigger and the pin will fall. Give them an unintended bounce when they are on the edge and the hammer will fall. No different than the Timney on the Nula.

Sorry that is the way it works.



Why is it unrealistic to not squeeze the trigger when one knows the rifle is loaded and on safe. Most squeeze the trigger when the rifle is off safe and they want to shoot at something.

Second. There is a way to unload a Nula without sliding the safety to the fire position. It is relatively easy, but part of the learning curve. The safety is all the way back-again to repeat myself-and you then push down on the safety and lift the bolt. The rifle remains on safe while you eject cartridges.


If one doesn't know how a Nula works, perhaps they should either learn, or refrain.

Addition: As previously mentioned, if a Nula, or any other rifle, goes off while the safety is released from the proper working position, then there most definitely is something wrong.

And to repeat myself again. The safety only is allowed to be someplace in the middle if the user allows it to be there. The intended safe position is all the way back. One doesn't park it where it is not supposed to be.

I don't think we are talking about the same thing.

This is the only situation I'm referring to:



There were, I believe, two posters earlier in this thread (years ago, I know) that reported pulling the trigger on a rifle that was not fully set to fire. The rifle did not go off until they moved the safe fully to fire without a finger on the trigger. This is what I'm referring to with partial sear movement with the safe set between detents. This should not happen.

What you are referring to on the 700 and 70 is some slop that allows the trigger to be pulled before the safety is set all the way to fire. In this situation, you still have your finger on the trigger and are trying to shoot it when it goes bang. The best example of this I can think of is an AR. If you move the safe close to fire and work the trigger you can get the sear to release. In the process, the safety actually moves to the fire position. There is no partial release, however, that allows sear to fully drop only when the safety is moved. This is not what I'm condemning. BTW, I haven't actually experienced this with any of my model 70's and have little 700 experience.

Anyway, I don't think we were on the same page. I am only referring to a gun that goes off without a finger on the trigger when the safe is moved to fire, which is what I thought the thread was about.

Then why do you reference parking the safety in the wrong place, when that would be user error? Why do you go on about knowing how to unload a Nula, when you don't?

Never mind, the answer is obvious.



Addition: Melvin has made and sold over 5000 rifles. Did some get out while not functioning absolutely perfect? Try it yourself sometime and get back with us.

I’d like to post a link if this works. I’ve been very concerned about the safety of my 2018 .308 Win. I definitely has three positions to the safety. Fully forward is a mushy “quasi-position” that allows the rifle to fire. The middle position is a definte click position and will not allow the rifle to fire. The fully rearward position is also definite click that does not allow the rifle to fire. Now that middle position is interesting in that if the trigger is pulled with the safety in the middle position, it won’t fire, BUT sometimes as you advance the safety forward into the “mushy” fire position, the rifle will discharge with no finger on the trigger. My previous NULA was a perfect two position safety as others have described. I haven’t brought this up to Melvin yet as I’ve had other fish to fry, but as the rifle is, I consider it not useable. Also, Melvin can be difficult in my experience.
Don
https://youtu.be/mkBt5_eMW68

Gee, there is a 3rd position. Standby, someone will be along to correct you.

Thanks for the video.

Thank you for the video

I had it happen on a ula model 20 reb pistol I had. it turned out to be some oil and debris that had gotten in the trigger and gummed it up. Melvin inspected and cleaned it and it was fine after.

Hey Gentleman.
I'm no gunsmith, just guy who ran into this exact thing with one of my rifles. I've heard of others with the exact same fault. Same thing, safety on, pull trigger, safety OFF, Clack. I was SO lucky my gun was not loaded. This is serious. Sorry to ramble and use caps in my post. But, if I can save just one accident, I'll be happy.
THIS IS A DEFECTIVE COCKING PIECE NOTCH CUT THAT WAS CUT TOO FAR/DEEP. THE SAFETY DOES NOT MOVE THE COCKING PIECE FAR ENOUGH BACK TO ALLOW THE INTERNAL TRIGGER SEAR TO MOVE FREELY WHEN THE SAFETY IS ON!
PLEASE PLEASE DO NOT USE IT OR LORD FORBID SELL IT TO SOMEONE.
Don't do it!
It needs a new cocking piece that is properly timed. One can check the internal sear clearance by taking the barreled action from the stock and look through the sear hole to see if the trigger sear moves freely when the safety lever is in the SAFE position.

Daveh,

I'll swing by and give it a through inspection.

I'll have it back to you by, what, next November?

That work?

Riiiight. From the guy who drops a NULA in saltwater and doesn't clean the thing for three months! lol...

Good lord.

I found what the problem was......the safety lever was coming into contact with the action (I'm a lefty). I bent the lever away from the action and relieved the stock and it was brand new. Nice crisp snapping into safe and fire positions.
Don

Glad there was a simple fix. My NULA trigger on a Colt lite rifle is a three position but requires the lever to be depressed for unloading while on safe mode. The detants are positive at each.