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Capt: Not sure, but it sounds pretty solid when you "knock" on it. It is also pretty heavy. My Omega you can definately tell it is hollow.


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Originally Posted by txhunter58
Capt: Not sure, but it sounds pretty solid when you "knock" on it. It is also pretty heavy. My Omega you can definately tell it is hollow.


if its solid then , it still seems to have been able to do it part to protect the shooter well enough .


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CVA rec'd much bad press in the '90's over quality concerns. These faulty steel alloy and tempering problems were corrected many years ago.

I've owned a CVA Optima for several years. I bought it second hand from my friend's son who had to have the latest and greatest Apex model. It came without an Owners Manual. I contacted CVA and they kindly sent me a PDF link.

I use Triple 7 powder. 105 grains produces best accuracy for me and I've certainly tried many loads. The crusher sabot cup and .430 Hornady XTP 240 grain bullet is my hunting load.

The various F powders are virtually obsolete. Yes, they were fine in their day but Triple 7 and others provide better performance and slightly cleaner,too. Unless you already have a container of FFF, I wouldn't consider hunting with it.

That being said, there are scores of muzzle-loader hunters who favor the Hawkins style of the early 1800's. They love their FFF powders loaded from genuine ox horn powder containers along with leather fringed jackets and the whole Jeremiah Johnson/Jim Bridger outfits. I have no quarrel with these dedicated hunters. They won't be changing anytime soon to Triple 7. Each to his own I say; my focus is scope sighted and easy to operate and clean.

Hope this is helpful.

Sherwood


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Originally Posted by whelennut
IIRC FFFG would be OK with round balls in small bores like .45 or .50 but when you get into conicals or .54 cal and bigger FFg is the way to go. I doubt many shoot round balls in inline rifles.


90 grains of 3f is an excellent load for the .72 caliber Long Land Musket. 2f is good for blanks.


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thanks for posting!


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Shoot 90 gr of 2F with 535 cast bullet in my .452 Whitworth. Works just fine, no drama at all. Think about all the black powder cartridges that use even hotter loads ? Ballistics about like a 45-70-500 smokeless load.

90 gr also in my .61 Baker flinter with a custom 1.4 ounce pure lead custom maxi ball.
Ballistics about like a Brenneke 16 ga Boar slug load.

Real muzzle loaders don't use 209 shotgun primers........

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Real muzzleloaders can hit what they are shooting at.


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but,swampy. you call those junk remington 700 ml ,'real muzzleloaders when infact they are converted centerfires and a very poor ml design.

all my cva ml's have been great guns.

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That caution about using FFFg in rifles is fairly common. I don't know the original source but have heard it before. I have heard it as "Don't use in rifles" as "Don't use in calibers larger than .50".
The theory is that the finer granulation, as compared to Fg or FFg, exposes more surface area to the flame front and thus the powder burns more quickly and pressure spikes more sharply. Seems that FFFg use in smoothbores is not subject to the same caution...at least I have not read about that. The most I have read (and done) is to reduce charges by 10% from FFg.
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But what would happen if you mistakenly loaded a max charge of smokeless in place of BP or its equivalent. So while we maybe able to say ; who would ever do that .


I am trying to envision a scenario in which such a thing could happen "mistakenly". I cannot imagine circumstances under which such a mistake could be made. I can imagine someone doing such a thing out of ignorance of the consequences but that is not the same thing as mistakenly loading as described.
If I were at the range or hunting, I would have to be carrying a flask of smokeless propellant along with my BP. I'd have to have filled that flask at home.

Duplexing....the Lyman Cast Bullet manual has quite a few loads that are duplexed. Paul Matthews in his books about BPCRs frequently mentions duplex loads.
If I want to use a sub powder like Pyrodex or 777 in my flint guns, I have to duplex with BP to kick start.
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While I would agree with 3F having more surface area , thus a quicker burn , faster spike ��.
The rest makes 0 sense
Your most accurate load for a given rifle is still going to be in a given pressure range .
By reducing the 3F load , what your doing is dropping the pressure closer to what 2F would provide .

the duplexing i was speaking of Pete , isnt duplexing Bp or the Synthetics . what i was getting at is duplexing BP with smokeless.
As to someone mistakenly loading that much smokeless.
We can call it ignorance or what ever word we want to use . Its still comes back to being a mistake .
A couple years ago , at our local range we had a fella show up with his son , an old Jukar rifle and a old can of red dot . Said the gun was his dads and he wanted to show his son how to shoot it .
Toney Roberts who owns Mountain Top Trading , up in N Idaho , often places what was a very nice smoothbore in front of his trade tent .
He loaned it to a fella who somehow managed to load the thing with smokeless . The gun is now the most wicked looking piece of metal you ever saw

Speaking for myself , nothing , absolutely nothing surprises me anymore . The number of people walking around with out a working brain cell . Simply is un countable


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The rest makes 0 sense
Your most accurate load for a given rifle is still going to be in a given pressure range .
By reducing the 3F load , what your doing is dropping the pressure closer to what 2F would provide .


I didn't say that it made sense.....just reporting the rationale as I have heard it. As I understand it, the pressure profile is a different curve than, let's say FFg. Narrower, I suppose. The peak is arrived at more quickly. I am guessing that it would be easier to get into an overpressure excursion. Assuming the same weight powder charge, let's say 90 grains, that 90 of FFFg is going to produce more pressure (or is it the same pressure more quickly?) than an equivalent load of FFg assuming that the same weight projectile is used.
The duplexing of BP with smokeless is what I was referring to in the Lyman book and in the Matthews books.
A typical entry in Lyman - 50/90 Sharps: 498 grain cast bullet, 7.1 grains of SR4759 and 63 grains of FFg (Max load). The rule of thumb is 10% of the total weight of the charge is smokeless.
Pete


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There is no such thing as a unsafe muzzleloader, its all in what an how you put it in, 80 gr of 2fg or 3fg will kill deer out to 125 yards fast all day long with ever bullet u use sabot,round ball, maxi, buffalo bullet

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understood pete your just passing on info . no issue
also as i understand it that would be correct concernig 3F .
but i do not belive this to be critical

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typical entry in Lyman - 50/90 Sharps: 498 grain cast bullet


while this may be true
a) is a cased bullet
b) the guns reciever is of a complete diffrent design

your not dealing with a drum bolster or a snail bolster with a cleanout or for that mater a nipple which is derectly subject to the pressures of the bore


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Originally Posted by savage62
There is no such thing as a unsafe muzzleloader, its all in what an how you put it in, 80 gr of 2fg or 3fg will kill deer out to 125 yards fast all day long with ever bullet u use sabot,round ball, maxi, buffalo bullet


Even light loads can be dangerous in the spanish made muzzleloaders.


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Pictures ? Evidence ? UTube videos? magazine reports ? You own/owned/shot how many ?

What brands are "Spanish made"?

Making it up again Swampy ? OR should I say STILL making it up ?

You really need a BIG STICK applied to your butt.

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makin crap up again.

I shoot those spanish CVA's a ton each and every year and not once have i ever ran into any sort of safety issue.

Those that do run into it are usually new guys with no knowledge whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by Swampman700
Originally Posted by savage62
There is no such thing as a unsafe muzzleloader, its all in what an how you put it in, 80 gr of 2fg or 3fg will kill deer out to 125 yards fast all day long with ever bullet u use sabot,round ball, maxi, buffalo bullet


I am light in the loafers and can be dangerous to to other hunters when out hunting


Fixed it for you, I would like CVA to sue you and Wakeman for Libel

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Fixed it for you, I would like CVA to sue you and Wakeman for Libel



dont forget Traditions . they could join CVA .
not to mention with the seemingly over whelming . Maybe even the Spanish firearms industry could get involved and do a class action . Folks like Aguirre y Aranzabal (AyA), Arrieta y Cia, Pedro Arrizabalaga, Armas Garbi, Ardessa and Grulla Armas
Maybe we could even get Winchester to dance into the mix and join a class action

im sure folks would even chip in little money to get that started . I don�t have much but I would dump a 20.00 in for the cause


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Originally Posted by captchee
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Fixed it for you, I would like CVA to sue you and Wakeman for Libel



dont forget Traditions . they could join CVA .
not to mention with the seemingly over whelming . Maybe even the Spanish firearms industry could get involved and do a class action . Folks like Aguirre y Aranzabal (AyA), Arrieta y Cia, Pedro Arrizabalaga, Armas Garbi, Ardessa and Grulla Armas
Maybe we could even get Winchester to dance into the mix and join a class action

im sure folks would even chip in little money to get that started . I don�t have much but I would dump a 20.00 in for the cause


He claimed he could easily kill an African lion with his 30-06 . We will raise funds for that if he promises to use the 700 and that ammo on his lion hunt.

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personaly i cant see why a 30.06 wouldnt work .
hell in this day and age , one could simply use something like photoshop laugh


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