Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters I am now confused: re: 308 and 300 @400 yards

I will add that the mags do have the trajectory advantage - however slight, it CAN matter - and handle heavy bullets better, so they have their place.

Still, I no longer own any magnums, and to date my longest shot on game was accomplished with a .308! Of course, all opinions are worth what you pay...

This thread has gotten some good posts, in my opinion (for whatever that's worth.). I don't look for bang-flop reactions anymore -- I watch for any movement on the part of the animal and am ready to shoot again if I think it's necessary. Maybe 30 years ago I thought I understood something, but the last 10 or so makes me wonder... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I DO, however, reserve the right to be OPINIONATED!

Let me throw one more little statistic into the pot:

The 180-grain load from the .300 Winchester slows down to just about the 180-grain muzzle velocity of the .30-06 in the first 100 yards.

In other words, the .300 has about a 100-yard advantage in velocity, energy, etc, over the .30-06. This is true whether we compare standard loads or High Energies or whatever.

If the .300 Winchester Magnum really bowls them over at 500 yards (as some of its fans claim) then the .30-06 should do the same things at 400. That is, if we believe in ballistic statistics, and not magic.

I would vote for the .300 for your purposes, but not by much, as I have shot quite a few larger-than-deer big game animals out around 400 yards with the basic 180-grain .30-06 load, and they all died right away.

MD

I agree that there seems to be too many variables to prove one calibers desireability over another.
2 years ago I had the opportunity to shoot a medium size whitetail doe in the Chelsea area of Michigan. 75 yards with a .245 gr aerotip in my Encore with 100 gr of triple 7. She dropped in her tracks. 3 weeks later I shot a buck with a .280 Rem at 65 yards and he went on for darn near a hundred yards b4 succumbing. Both shots were placed where itended just behind the shoulder and both removed a portion of the heart.
Makes you wonder if some animals do not just have that little bit of !!SCREW YOU!! I aint ready yet going on inside of them.
Look at the recent article in Successful Hunter. Eileen Clarkes piece on a stubborn little pronghorn and its tenacity. Some things just don't make any sense.
MCS

How about the effects of wind deflection at longer ranges with lighter/slower bullets versus heavier/faster bullets? I for one have a much harder time doping the wind than figuring range. And here on the prairie it's almost always a factor.

Good question for Mule Deer considering his location and experience. Seems like an advantage for the magnum, but how much of one?

My thoughts on going with a 06 ai or the 300 holland, is simply if a person is going to dole out the cash for a custom rifle why bother with something thats just a gussied up version of what the neighbor kid brought home from Walmart?
At least that's the way I reason it. Other than the fact that both are good cartridges.

In my erperience, the advantage any magnum has in wind deflection is less than it has in trajectory. Wind deflection is directly correlated to ballistic coeffciecent and muzzle velcocity, but most 7mm and .300 magnums only have a 10% or so increase in muzzle velocity over most "standard" cartridges with the same bullet. Hence, wind drift isn't affected all that much. ALL bullets drift in the wind, and more than we would like.

MD

Since there's a good chance that all of my deer in life will be killed at 200 yards or less, I don't sweat the velocity thing. It's very interesting to follow these threads and of course I realize that some folks don't have the luxury of closer shots. I practice out to 220 yards or so (farthest I can shoot at local range) and it does me well. Where I hunt 220 yards covers alot of ground and with "mild" velocities standard bullets work well for me. I used to fret over such things and later on realized how luck I am. My equipment requirements just aren't that compicated so it takes a big stress(either real or imagined) off my chest to know that as long as I can reach 200 or so yards with good accuracy and reasonable trajectory then I'm in good shape. I also realize that I have no buisiness shooting at game 400 yards away in the first place.

Brooksrange, there's no need for confusion. Go ahead and get a 300 Win. Mag. built. It's a lot more gun than a 308 Win. The 300 Win. shoots flatter, and delivers more energy at all ranges. Ballistic capability is what it is, pure and simple. Feel-good pronouncments be dipped, it DOES iron stuff out better than the lesser 30s, and I'm not speaking from guesswork or out of the side of my mount on this either. If that wasn't so, then in the same manner the ol' 45-70 would be just as lethal on buffalo as a 458 Lott........

Trust what Bob Hagel said in his great book, 'Game Loads And Practical Ballistics For The American Hunter', page 176:

"No cartridge will kill any better than than the cold, hard ballistics show it will, providing the right bullet is used for the velocity delivered."

Every word of that simple statement weighs a pound, and in a nutshell underscores what I've observed myself in 33 years of hunting. There's no mystery to this stuff. When it comes to rifles, 'less' is only 'more' if you can't shoot the 'more' with confidence and precision. With practice and a positive attitude, most guys can.............

AD

...and the loads he has listed in that book make a magnum out of standard cartridges!
None for me thanks! I like keeping my head where it is! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I'd get the 300 Win and forget all this theoretical stuff. If we all followed that logic, why get a 3006 when a 300 Savage is "only" a few fps slower. I am by no means an expert on this stuff, but I have taken a head of game or two and there is a SIGNIFICANT difference at least in my experience (again totally empirical, but then again so is this thread) between game taken with an 06 and a 300 Weatherby or Win Mag. jorge

Yeah and Bob Hagel blew his head off many times for sure <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Tweezer, at least state something real......puullease <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Teeder, I'm not suggesting that you follow Hagel's loads -- at least I don't think I did -- and I never would. If you reread my post, you'll see that I wasn't referring to loads. Other than that aspect of things, Bob's advice is as good as it gets.

AD

BR:

I have been in the magnum camp and now, for various reasons I am not. When I made the gradual switch from my magnums, (primarily 300 wby & 7mm RM) I did not notice that stuff got any "less dead" I also did not notice that it got dead noticeably slower. I did notice that the milder calibers were easier and more pleasant to shoot a lot and to shoot well. They were therefore more conducive to extensive practice.

Occasionally, you hear the anecdote about the long range deer/elk/bear/woozel that didn't drop right now to an '06 hit but did to a 300 mag hit. Those stories could have very easily been reversed. The things that makes a critter flop as opposed to running a bit (delayed flop) are mostly related to exactly where and from what angle the animal was hit, the bullet performance, the animals circumstances at the moment, and other mysterious intangibles. To assume that the circumstances surrounding two instances are identical is never wise. The two hunters with the most experience on this board (M.D. and JJ Hack) do not generally tout magnum cartridges as a major (or even minor) advantage. (read JJ's experience with the '06 on literally hundreds of animals including BIG african plains game)

As far as the trajectory difference, I view it this way. I have accepted the cold hard realization that I can't always reliably judge range beyond 300 yds. Actually, in strange country, that might even be a stretch as there are just so many variables (size of target, how much of it you can see, time of day, angle of the sun, how bright the light, etc. etc.) For me, any cartridge that gets a good bullet to a PBR of 250-300 means that I can hold dead on out to the limit of my estimation capabilities. Any shot farther than that requires some planning, a careful rest, and consideration of the bullet path. That means I want to range it so that I know exactly how far it is and what the effect on my trajectory is. It makes no difference then whether I have to correct for the larger or smaller drop, it takes (me) the same time.

This may be hard for some to believe, but I have nothing against magnums per se (remember, I hunted with them for many years). I do however, have a problem when someone is guided toward a magnum purchase by anecdotes that suggest that a std caliber cannot do the job as well. The magnum may be OK for that shooter but it may also be more gun that he can really handle well. It may also saddle them with more weight and bulk than they really want to carry in the steepest gnarliest terrain. I do feel that for dangerous game, at close ranges, a larger diameter bullet than .30 cal. offers more advantage than a faster .30 cal.

Popcorn???......................... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

JimF

AD,

I know you didn't and I didn't mean to suggest that you did.
I've had the book for years and have read it through many times, and I agree about the other aspects of what he wrote about.
I just thought the "loads" went along with the .308 vs .300 mag theme!
"If" someone was to follow the loads, they wouldn't need a magnum! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Shame on me for trying to be a little funny.

CreekWarrior,

You're right, the loads are perfectly safe. Hell, put a couple more grains in! They're small. What could it hurt?

Just funnin' ya! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I wouldn't want to personally attack you. We're all grown-ups and above that aren't we? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The other side of reccomending a cartridge to an anonymous person over the internet is no one has any actual idea of the gent's capabilities/recoil tolerance. In an ideal world we'd all carry 7.75 lb 300 Win Mag's the recoil of which doesn't hinder our shooting or bother us in the least. However, as Finn Aagaard once remarked, fully 1/3 of all 300 Mag users he guided flinched badly enough that they couldn't hit game and that only 50% could shoot the 300's well enough to be called competant.

Recoil doesn't matter... right.

People who, in this thread and the MD's thread on the same topic, keep saying things like "Using that logic, you may as well get a 30-30, 300 Savage, (insert cartridge choice here) because they are only a few FPS behind the 30-06," are totally missing the point. I don't know if it is on purpose, for the sake of argument, or out of ignorance, but the gist of these threads is simply that the magnums do not give AS BIG an advantage out to about 400 yards as many people think, and that many standard cartridges are effective at that range. Saying the 30-30 can be equally effective out to 400 yds is obviously stretching the point!

BTW, I have shot the 30-30 at 400 yards alongside the .308, and mine drops almost 3 feet more than the .308 at that range. This is not to mention that the group size was much larger for the 30-30 - mostly in horizontal dispersion (wind?).
And my 30-30 is a very accurate Marlin 336A which was scoped at the time. 3 feet more than the .308, which drops about 7 inches more than the .300. The extrapolated theory just doesn't hold up when you really shoot at 400 yds.

In any case, either choice will work. Being able to place the bullet is the thing - if the shooter likes the flat trajectory of the mag, that can help him; if the shooter prefers the lighter recoil/blast of the .308 (or .06, etc), then THAT can help too.

The discussion is interesting, but the nice thing is EITHER choice can be correct!

Yes, either point can be correct in terms of hitting ability. Some guys just can't shoot any sort of 300 magnum well, or, often due to noise, any sort of 7mm magnum well. Yet, many of these same guys will do wonderful work with 270s, 280s, 308s, '06s, etc. It's all up to the guy behind the rifle. Close only counts in horseshoes and handgrenades -- better a 308 you can hit with, rather than a 300 you can't hit with.

I can remember sight-in weekends before deer season at our gunclub. You'd have guys in their 40s with 300 Wbys. that couldn't hint well, but you'd have teenagers with 6mm Rems. that were absolutely dead-shots............

AD

As was mentioned earlier, people don't use the same bullets. How many .308 owners shoot 200's, or even 180's as their go-to loads? Load up some 200's and now trajectory is such that you really should be using a rangefinder--even at ranges close enough one shouldn't need to use a rangefinder.

So people commonly stick with 150's and 165's in the 308 to keep trajectory livable where 180's and 200's are much more commonly used in the magnums. Now you're up to a 40% or so difference in drift, depending upon bullet selection.