Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting Hunter Ethics

If it flies
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<br>Thank you for your very nice explanation of your feelings. I respect them very much.
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<br>As per the 500 Yard shot on the large buck, I would not have teken it either (please don't think I am being a smart A__ here) That shot would have been too "close" for my hunting group. We would NOT have taken it, honestly.
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<br>We dont even shoot at Ground hogs till they are at least 600 yards away. It's a waste of our barrel steel. An automatic kill, thats not much of a challenge for us.
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<br>The game commissions know of our hunting technique and think that we are the safest hunters afield. This is especially true in Pennsylvania (we have Wardens hunt with us) and also in Colorado. With our safety record I don't forsee a problem as long as we can explain and help the newbie on how to do it correctly before an accident happens..
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<br>Have a good one
<br>Darryl
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<br>As an add on here---I really don't see a difference of a Bow hunter or gun hunter sitting in his tree stand with scent on to mask his human scent and waiting to "ambush" his quarry at REAL close range or 100 yards away. We as LR hunters are just further away and ambushing the same way. It's the elemint of surprise regardless of what range you shoot. Even the person sneaking up closer to an animal is doing it with ambush and surprise in mind. If the animal didn't know you were there, it is an ambush rergardless of the range.
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<br>As I stated, we don't need the spotter or partner if we are only killing out to 1000 yards.
<br>The main desire in All hunting, regardless of the style, is to try to ambush the animal at any range we feel comfortable with killing it at.
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<br>You and i both know that, you don't want an animal to know your anywhere around until after you pull the trigger and he is on the ground dead.
<br>Don't you agree to that?
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<br>I also passed up 3 bucks this past season that my wife or I could have killed.
<br>I too want to be more selective.
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Hey guys, I don't have a dog in this fight but do have what should be a simple question. If the long range shooting these guys are talking about is unethical, what range should people be limited too. To phrase it differently, at what range are shots ethical and beyond that unethical? TM

Adding to the B&C debate: I'm pretty certain of a few rules they have and will do my best to look them up. One is the use of electronic devices. I'm pretty sure that if it came out that you used a computer on location to figure your drop, you'd be disqualified, just like the dude who used an electronic elk call to call in what would have been the new world record bull. There are also restrictions on laser range finders. If memory serves, if they are built into the scope: no record.

Hello Muley
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<br>My group and I would be safe as per the records.
<br>My drop chart is taped on the side of the rifle before I go out hunting. No computer used while we are hunting. Some do but, I don't.
<br> I have no laser rangefinder device that is in the scope, it is hand held and seperate.
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<br>The computer for me is just for the elevation and temperature we are hunting in and to make the drop charts ahead of time.
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<br>Darryl
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<br>PS--- Don't forget to wave.
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<br>Now if I could only find a record bull where I hunt.

I was just thinking (I know its dangerous for me) that todays vehicles are far superior and more powerfull than what came before, so therefore we should be able to use them at faster than posted speeds or to race someone or use them in a manner in which we feel is okay is similar to saying rifles are more powerful so lets use them for reaching out farther. Whereas I think one could make the point that all the manufactures set out to do was to make them more reliable and to do there designed job at the normal hunting range more efficiently, and offering up something that would allow you to get the job done quicker and deadlier to alleviate any suffering on the part of the animal. Just a thought, and yes I have taken some longer than average shots and as long as one has the skill I guess who am I to say they shouldn't.

Darryl:
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<br>On a slightly different base we are replaying the original objections raised to sniping as a legitimate wartime activity. It was accepted as a useful tool of wartime because if has become the general view that, with the exception of the Geneva Convention, there are no "rules" of war. I just feel that game animals are not a legitimate target for assassination, as some poster put it. Yeah, it is a gray area and I am not sure where the line should be drawn, but my conscience says that it is long before a 1000 yards. BTW, I didn't get into this but in a no wind situation from a bench(I don't use bipods so can't comment on them) I agree that hitting a deer size targets kill zone at 1000 yards is quite easy with the proper set up. I dunno about past that, have never shot that far. But that is not my point.
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<br>I appreciate the courtesy you have maintained in your replies and, while we have very different views about what constitutes fair chase I wish you the best of luck with your shooting.
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<br>Unless I receive some more pertinent information about some of the topics we have touched on, I have explained my position as well as I am capable of so there is no gain for either of us in continuing this discussion. Best wishes CAT

Travelingman
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<br>That was exactly my point.
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<br>Who has been self appointed to put a yardage on ethics for another hunter?
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<br>I believe that its every hunters responsibility to know what he and his equipment are capable of doing at ANY range. If he's comfortable with a set range fine, regardless of far it is.
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<br>Ethics are for the individual hunter "himself" and not what he feels should be for ANYBODY and EVERYBODY else.
<br>300 Yards may be ethinical for one hunter while others may feel that it should be 100 yards Max.
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<br>It's a no win situation for the Longrange hunter as opposed to the short range hunter because he doesn't have any idea how it's done (for the most part) and the equipment we have, to make sure it's done right.
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<br> As long as my friends and I are comfortable with long killing shots, we will continue to do so because it is our choice to do and we have been VERY successful at it.
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<br>We as Longrange Hunters are within the game laws
<br>of every State and kill cleanly, any animal the size of deer or elk, we go after.
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<br>Hunting is hunting and dead is dead regardless of the range and method.
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<br>Darryl Cassel

As several posters have mentioned on this thread and on others we hunters are not the ones who will be allowed to determine what we will be permited to do. The general population will determine that. At present the general population is neutral on hunting for the most part but that can change quickly.
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<br>To the general population perception is reality. You who engage in ultra long range shooting see that a goodly number of your fellow hunters just on this board have reservations concerning your method of hunting being ethical. No matter how well you explain your postion and how articulate you are the reservations are still there. No matter how you reguard us or we you I believe our respective postions are honestly come by.
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<br>What will be the opinion of the casual hunter who either can not afford the quite considerable financial outlay that your method requires. The one who does not wish to invest the time and discipline necessary to master ultra long range big game shooting. They vastly out number the dedicated. No matter how many disciples you attract you will always be outnumbered as I see it. If he perceives you as elitest snobs taking animals in a manner he can have no hope of taking I believe he too, rightly or wrongly, will turn against you as being "unfair".
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<br>If the general population begins to believe that shooting animals from specialized firearms at great distances making use of the latest technological gizmo is somehow unfair then it will be legislated out of existence. It is my belief that it will be a very short time span before the use of the 50bmg round will be outlawed for hunting.
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<br>It can happen. Indeed it will happen. Witness California and the ban on cougar hunting. Many states outlaw the use of dogs and bait for bear. Some states outlaw the use of bait for any game animal. I have had the pleasure of handling and fireing a fine 8bore shot gun. It was beautiful and not at all the ponderous thing you would imagine. They are outlawed for hunting because they were perceived to be unfair. In wildfouling the use of live decoys and baiting were outlawed because they were perceived to be un-ethical. Just the same the ultra long range hunting will be outlawed if it is perceived by the general population to be un-ethical. Whether or no you think we should cater to the opinions of non hunters in reality we must because it is by their sufferance we are allowed to hunt. That most especially applies to publicly owned ground.
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<br>I suppose we are faced with the age old question of just because a thing can be done should it be done. That question must be answered by each individual for himself. Then again, perception is reality for most.
<br>BCR

I came on this quite by chance over breakfast this morning. I, like many people who like to read and grew up pre-computer(luckily, even though I love my cyberspace)used to and still do oversubscribe to publications on topics that interest me. At one time I was receiving over 40 magazines a month and, having other minor things to do, like make enough money to keep eating and shooting, I got behind on my reading. So am slowly catching up, by reading and discarding the old ones while saving any articles that I find particularly interesting.
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<br>This is from Field and Stream, Jan 1998, written by David Petzal, the executive editor at that time and is just a part of the article titled, "Rifle Resolutions".
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<br>Quoted text begins:
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<br>In 1998, I will stop letting the rifle overload my other skills. Too many hunters lean very hard on the gun to get their game. A hunter must first and foremost be a woodsman and a naturalist. Being a hunter means acquiring knowledge of the animal and its habitat, and cultivating presistence and stoicism. A really skillful shot who is not all of these things will get game--possibly a lot of game, because modern rifles are so efficient--but he will not truly be a hunter.
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<br>End quoted text.

I have been gone for awhile and kinda sitting back reading today..
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<br>I want to stop for just a moment and say a heart felt "Thank You" for attempting to calmly exchange your very differant viewpoints and remain civil.. For the most part anyway... (grin)
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<br>How nice to see you guys stay so cool on a subject that several of you feel very strongly about. Quite a pleasant change from some of the exchanges I have seen before. Oh sure there is a nitwit or two that usually try to spoil it, but it was nice to watch the wiser more level headed spearhead the exchange this time. Sure allowed the differant views to be more clea-rly understood without the shouting didn't it
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<br>This has been a great read !! And a neat insight into some of the posters themselves...
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<br>Bravo !! Wish they always went this well...
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<br>Tex

BCR
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<br>Our numbers are fast becoming more then you would think.
<br>The granola eating, tree huggers will concentrate their efforts on HUNTING certain species period, as they have done in the past. They don't like ANY kind of killing.
<br>Why should we try to fight between ourselves, as to your opinion or anyone else for that matter, concerning LR hunting? We are hunters , all of us.
<br>It's not my business how you hunt and kill and it's not yours how I do it as long as both of us are within the framework of the game laws.
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<br>We shoud accept everyones right to hunt anyway they choose as long as it is legal to do so and in any State they wish to buy a license in.
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<br>We should also ban together as ONE UNIT of HUNTERS.
<br>Maybe you don't like Bow hunting or muzzle loader hunting either but, it's here to stay. We must accept that fact.
<br>Some hunters would strongly argue that sticking an arrow in a game animal and causeing a slow death many times, is unethical? I don't feel that way because I am also a Bow hunter.
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<br>I do believe we have the right to hunt and persue game anyway we wish as long as it's legal and would hope you would agree to that and give others their space. I certainly respect everyones (yours included) right to hunt the way they want to. I will never impose my style on anyone unless, they are interested and ask questions pertaining to it.
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<br>FYI --I don't use a 50 cal on game but, several years ago Idaho put on a 15# rifle weight limit and no 50 Cals are allowed. I can certainly live with that as, we have 15# rifles that will kill at extreme range.
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<br>If It Flies
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<br>Looks like we meet another time here.
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<br>As per the article you read and posted, do you suppose that was another "Short Range hunters" opinion?
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<br>That is just another uninformed person stating what "he" thinks a hunt or hunter should be.
<br>That sounds a bit familar to me. "HIS OPINION" again.
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<br>I would have to bet, that writer has never seen what can be done at LR and how fast a kill is made. Until someone sees it done, they simply have NO IDEA what they are talking about concerning it. If they have seen it done correctly and still don't like it (normally not the case) then I could accept that from them.
<br>I just can't imagine "me" commenting on something I know nothing about or have NEVER seen and that's the problem with several people who have made comments on the internet over the years concerning LR hunting.
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<br>I believe our style of hunting is here to stay and only time will tell.
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<br>Back to BCR for a moment.
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<br>As far as expensive equipment is concerned, as I believe you mentioned, it's NO different then you driving a Cadillac and someone else driving a Chevy. I believe you call that "Personal preferance." My rifles and the LR hunters rifles, just happens to be a bit more expensive then some out there. We want the MOST accuracy we can possibly have and that normally means custom rifles.
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<br>Texas Hunter
<br>Thank you for the kind words pertaining to this thread. I believe I speak for BOTH sides of the issue.
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<br>To sum this up, how about if we just consider all styles of hunting as "one fraternal organization" and just live with everyones else's decision, as to, how they want to do it?
<br>I can live with anyone's decision, even though it may not be for me.
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<br>Darryl Cassel
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<br>The smell of burning gun powder makes me horney even at my age.
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Darryl:
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<br>If you call this meeting, we will continue to meet. I'm not chasing you around, you are responding to a post I made with another man's viewpoint which reflects mine. Why don't you post some published views that support your activities if you don't like my choices?
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<br>I don't know Mr. Petzal's, the executive editior of Field and Stream, history vis a vis rifle shooting but if you READ what he wrote instead of react it is immaterial how well you can kill an animal at extreme ranges. He says that it is not hunting and I agree, it is shooting at live targets to see if you can do it. He may not know how well you can do it, but read it again and see if you believe it would change his opinion or write and ask him if he would publish an article on your activities endorsing them. He might for the interest it would generate. IMO you had better hope he does not. Since he is the executive editor of one of the widest circulating outdoor magazines, somehow I think his opinion might carry more weight than yours. Did you ever wonder why Idaho restricted rifle weights? Maybe if Idaho and other states understand what you are doing, they will restrict the wt to 10 lbs or the caliber or both. Just as some states are now banning the use of in-lines in muzzleloading season.. It will happen if your "sport" becomes widespread. I cannot understand how from a hunting POV that you can be proud of what you do and firmly believe that if the knowledge of your style of "sport" becomes widely circulated then restrictions will soon follow. And, I can honestly say this, without it reflecting just my opinion, that if you can't convince even most of the hunters that what you do is fair chase, and I don't believe that you can, then if the public at large gets hold of it, it will without question, result in further restricitions on all hunter's priviledges.

If it flies
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<br>I'm not chasing you around, just responding to your comments to me and to LR hunting as a whole.
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<br>There is a great interest In longrange hunting. Even this forum has many interested posters that have responded in a positive way. They truly want to know how it's done.
<br>There is however, a handfull of you who disagree and always will and that's fine. It's NOT for you and I agree you probably should never hunt any different then the way you are.
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<br>Magazines articles have been written about LR hunting many years ago and in the last few years.
<br>Even the PA Game commision writers have published In the Game news, accounts of what we do.
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<br>We sometimes hunt with off duty Wardens , some of which are members of the Williamsport 1000 yard club.
<br>They don't have a problem with LR hunting at all.
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<br>It seems the ONLY folks who have a problem with it are those who really don't know about it or have never seen it done.
<br>Even though there are some that, disagree with our way of hunting, it's not a grudge match BETWEEN us and those who don't AGREE.
<br>Maybe there are those that don't agree with your way either?
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<br>You or I don't set the rules AND GAME LAWS in the big game fields and mountains Of all the States.
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<br>All we are interested in, as all hunters should be, is to cleanly kill the animal regardless of the range.
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<br>You will certainly continue to hunt your way and we will continue to do our thing because we enjoy the LR way better then when we hunted your way.
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<br>For me, that was many years ago when I started but, I still do it your way from time to time. I don't JUST LR hunt all the time but, I do enjoy it MUCH better.
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<br>I guess we shall just say "To each his own" concerning hunting, as long as it's legal.
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<br>Lets just go out and enjoy ourselves in the hunting fields, OK? Fair enough? I think we have beat this to death, don't you?
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<br>Darryl Cassel

Daryl wrote...
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<br><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr><p>As per the 500 Yard shot on the large buck, I would not have teken it either (please don't think I am being a smart A__ here) That shot would have been too "close" for my hunting group. We would NOT have taken it, honestly.<p><hr></blockquote>
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<br>This is the kind of statement which makes me think you guys are more interested in shooting than hunting. If you were truly hunting, you'd shoot that deer, and not worry that he was too close. Instead, you look for a way to utilize all your fancy rifles and gizmos, using live game as the target.
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<br>This will come back to haunt our sport in a negative fashion one of these days, and all so you folks can prove what great shots you are.
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<br>Sad.

I see no difference in the "opinion" of one man versus another on this subject. It matters not to me if the "opinion" is published or not, it is still the "opinion" of one person.
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<br>Do we hold the "opinion" of a person in higher regard just because their word is published. I don't.
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<br>Thats my "opinion".
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<br>Don

BW
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<br>To answer your statements.
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<br>I think you missed the point. Remember , I hunt all ways, not just longrange.
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<br>If it flies, passed up the shot (he's a hunter) and "knew" he could have killed it at 500 yards but, he left it live. His reasons are different then mine and that's fine.
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<br>I simply said the same thing only for a different reason.
<br>I could have killed it too but , would be more proud if I got it at "OVER" 500 yards and I'm also a hunter.
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<br>We are not trying to prove to anyone we are good shots at all. We have just had tremendous success hunting this way.
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<br>Regardless if it's a deer of an elk, it is a "hunting" game animal and he is a "target" to anyone that shoots him no matter what the range is.
<br>That includes short or Longrange hunters.
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<br>He is simply put, a marked legal animal that will probably end up in in someones freezer by the end of the hunting season. The game commissions set this quota, not the hunters.
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<br>By the way, I do like elk meat very much.
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<br>Darryl

It does not make one wit of difference to me if needone used a spear to take a deer at 20 feet.Or Darryl used his 338
<br>Eargesplitten Loudenboomer to drill one at 2000 yards.Both shots required skill and practice.The objective is the same.
<br>How you get there is half the fun.
<br>dave

First, I agree with you that this mule has almost been whipped to death. You may be growning in numbers but I hope you will agree that you (not personal here meaning ultra long range shooters) are and always will be a miniscule part of the scene as compared to the total numbers of big game hunters. It isn't the "granola eating tree huggers" that should concern you. We all know their agenda. We also know that the mass media portray all hunters as either Elmer Fudd or beer swilling, pot bellied rednecks. I contend that the general population is what will do you in. Just as the few that were leg hold trappers have almost been done in by the general population passing laws against something they did not understand but abhorred on an emotional level. I believe that they will, on that emotional level, object to your using "The Noble Red Deer" as a target for super long range shooting. Indeed, were I you, I would fear excess publicity more than anything.
<br>I have noted the statment made more than once; we have never lost a deer. Who is we? Just you and your group or all long range shooters. I am sure that you abhor the lead slinger that takes hail Mary shots at game animals as much as any one. How will you separate your self in the public eye? You don't have to explain it to or convince anyone on this board of the skill and dedication your mode of shooting takes. You have to convince the soccer moms. Good luck.
<br>You made a true statment saying that it is neither of our business' how the other hunts. However a few stories of some group, not yours of a certainty and I mean that sincerely, whanging away at elk on the opposite mountain side and leaving several wounded, circulated and before long all are lumped together as slob hunters and outlawed thus decreasing all hunting. You nor I have the right to persue game, the game is owned by the several states and unless it is a game farm the states grant the privelege of hunting under their rules. Rules that are made not just to satisfy hunters but the entire population of the state.
<br>I don't care for bow hunting though I have done it. I hunted with a flint lock muzzle loader for twelve years and took my share of deer. I don't any more not because they are too hard to use but because I got mortal tired of cleaning the durn thing.
<br>The question remains; just because a thing can be done should it be done.
<br>I bear you no ill will I just do not care for the methods you use to take game animals.
<br>BCR

Darryl, As I said earlier, I do not have a dog in this fight and do not want to get one out of the pen. While I can not see myself ever doing what you LR guys do, I on the other hand find no legal reason to oppose it. I did honestly want to know what range was ethical in most peoples opinion, since this has been posed as an ethical question. The lack of responses to my question leads me to believe that many people have the same problem I do and that is defining how far is too far. It varies hunter to hunter and each of us has to make their own decision as to what is "ethical" for them.
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<br>Since I do not believe an ethical range can be defined, I believe we need to look for another solution that would be acceptable to most people, including guys like yourself that do have the skill to cleanly take such shots. One solution that has been around since almost the beginning of game laws is to define and regulate the type equipment that can be used for hunting. All locations I am aware of define minimum calibers for certain size game and I think we all (pretty much) agree with that. Banning night sights for hunting is another area that I think most people would agree with and again, all game and fish departments I am aware of ban them. The list goes on and on, plugs for shotguns, crossbows for healthy hunters, etc.........
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<br>So, the precident is there to regulate hardware when the vast majority of people (hunters and non hunters combined) agree that it gives the hunter too much of an advantage or increases the risk of wounding of an animal. Limiting the weight, power or some other combination of factors would still allow LR hunters like yourself to demonstrate and enjoy their considerable skill with a rifle while hunting, without allowing what some consider to be an unfair advantage. Is this a proper way to address the issue? One, that while not ideal, does address the concerns of both groups while not limiting our freedom too much. I do not know but you did mention that one state already limited the weight of rifles that can be used for hunting. I submit such a solution might be much better than trying to define what an "ethical" range limit might be.
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<br>I fully support your right to hunt in any legal manner, even though I might not find that method appealing myself. I do think we all need to be more aware though of how our actions can lead to un-intended consequences. I had a post some time back about how I feel auctioning of permits for limited draw areas (no matter how good the cause the money goes to) will come back to hurt us all in the long run as they demonstrate that hunting is not a right but a priviledge that can be bought and sold and the more money you have the more "right" you have to hunt. I have similar fears about how extreme long range hunting could have unitended consequences but will certainly defend your right to do so, as long as the methods and equipment used are legal.
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<br>Again, I do not want to take either side in this discussion but did want to present an idea that might generate some positive discussion about how we can all go forward together as hunters and sportsmen. Whether it has merit or not I will leave to both sides of the discussion to decide. TM

Travelingman, 7mm and BCR
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<br>7MM --Thanks for the support.
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<br>Travel --that was a VERY good post and it certainly has merit.
<br>I don't really care if they put a weight limit on rifles in every State because we can build them to shoot longrange very accurately, regardess of the weight.
<br>Thank you for the fine suggestions and post. Very good reading.
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<br>BCR
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<br>I really don't fear losing the ability to use my Longrange hunting prevledges unless we DON'T help the large amount of hunters getting into to the sport.
<br>I don't fear the newsmedia either.
<br>I honestly think your trying to build this up to more then what it should be.
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<br>I think if we just remember that hunting is hunting, kill is kill and dead is dead regardless of the range, we can all get along and continue to hunt the way we all have for many years.
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<br>When I said we never lost an animal yet, that includes my hunting group (Includes my wife too) and my friends that LR hunt in other groups. I didn't say all LR hunters because, it would be impossible for me to know them all. There are many in EVERY State and it's growing rapidly.
<br>We (My group) have killed every animal we pointed the rifle at and pulled the trigger on. None have got away to date.
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<br>For "anyone" Trying to stop LR hunting now, would be like trying to limit rifles to just open sights and all must be lever action 30/30s. No ATVs allowed either, could be added to that list. Do you think that would fly? You and I both know the answer to that one. Same applies to LR hunting elemination, that would never fly either.
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<br>LR hunting , I believe is here to stay. Some of you that don't like LR hunting or Bow hunting probably should learn to live with it as much as you can. We are not infringing on your style of hunting, please don't on ours.
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<br>Theres room for all of us regardless if you or anyone else don't like the consept.
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<br>As one fellow said in Los Angeles---"Can't we all just get along"?
<br>Another way to say that would be, "Can't all of us hunters just get along"?
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<br>Live and let live
<br>Darryl