Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting Hunter Ethics

All the discussion on long range shooting raises questions about ethics on both sides. No this is not intended to be an attack on the long range shooters so don't get your knickers in a twist as the brits say. This is simply a discussion. Everyone has ethics some good some bad. Are mine better than yours or yours better than mine. Who knows. My ethics require I go for a clean one shot kill. I pass up shots where I do not think I can get the clean kill. If that means going home with an unfilled tag so be it. I teach hunter education here in Colorado and part of the course is hunter ethics and respondabilty. No you can not teach someone ethics, but maybe we can put them on the path anyway. My biggest concern is lost game. every elk or deer that is wounded and lost to die and that is found later by a non-hunter is a strike against in the war being waged by the anti's to end hunting forever. The reason I am opposed to the general discussion of long range shooting is that not everyone can do it. You guys spend a lot of time and money to pursue your shooting and I admire someone that can shoot at those ranges. The other tread was starting to fall into name calling so I just wanted to state my postion on this without any attacking. I think this is the postion that the others that have objected would take as well. tom

Tom,
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<br>Personally I would say it is ethical to kill any animal with one shot. Unfortunately that isn't reality. To error is human. We all make mistakes. As long as they are non-intentional mistakes I don't have a problem with them. Personally I do everything I can to minimize my mistakes when making a shot on any animal.
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<br>When I aim on a deer, whether it be 75 yards or 420 plus yards I have to have a certain level of confidence in myself for that moment to squeeze the trigger. If the confidence is not there, I simply don't shoot.
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<br>You stated: "The reason I am opposed to the general discussion of long range shooting is that not everyone can do it." I would politely ask: Can everyone kill a dove everytime they shoot at one? Somebody told me, and I am not sure if the numbers are correct or not, that it takes, on average, 12 rounds to kill one dove. Do we call that unethical? Is it unresponsible? My intention is not to slam you or anybody by asking this. Anybody that has hunted for any length of time has missed and anybody that has hunted for any length of time has or will have lost an animal. I have, in both cases. I was extremely upset, with myself, when I lost an animal. When I missed I was glad it was a clean miss, or at least I was hopefull it was a clean miss. If I was not sure, and most times I wasn't, I always go over to where the animal was when I shot and spend a lot of time looking for any indication of a hit. To me, thats being responsible for my actions. I am hopefull that most hunters will do the same.
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<br>I have a higher level of confidence shooting a deer at 400 plus yards (off a bench) then I do shooting a deer at 50 yards (offhand). In fact I won't shoot at a deer (offhand) at 50 yards since my level of confidence is so low for that shot. I shake like a dog [bleep] razor blades, thus for me to shoot offhand (unless the deer is very close) is futile, at best.
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<br>By getting into the longer range hunting it has enabled me to continue to hunt. A sport I truely enjoy.
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<br>I think we have to be carefull when blanketing the LR Hunters. I do not have the skill of these guys that can kill a deer at 1000 yards and further. These people have obviously done their homework and practice a LOT at their craft. For me to make a general statement that what they are doing is in any way wrong, would be wrong, of me. IMO.
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<br>Becuase of my physical limitations I doubt I will ever get anywhere near their level of precision shooting/hunting at the distances they do all the time but I can still be interested in it and learn from them. To me, part of the joy of it all is the learning process.
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<br>Have a good one,
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<br>Don
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And I quote, "The reason I am opposed to the general discussion of long range shooting is that not everyone can do it." Hmmmm, wonder if the same could be said for bowhunting or muzzle loading? Care to open that can of worms? Darn rights it's not for everyone, neither are the other two forms of hunting I just mentioned. For heck sakes hunting isn't for everyone, so quit knit-pickin. However some of us really appreciate the information shared on these boards and really don't like seeing good folks run off just because their style of hunting or shooting doesn't fit in with the masses. Open minds really need to prevail.

My grandfather once told me "A man's ignorance regarding any hunting issue is directly related to the piece of ground he's standing on when he opens his mouth". I didn't realize how right he was until I started hunting in other areas of the country and reading hunting boards on the net.
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<br>Long range is something I presently have no desire to get into myself. I do however enjoy hearing about the performance of the equipment. Maybe some of the "ethics" police will explain some of these others to me:
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<br>1. Hunting deer with dogs is unethical but hunting birds with dogs isn't?
<br>2. Hunting deer with 22 centerfires is unethical but bows/arrows aren't?
<br>3. Putting corn in a feeder out is unethical baiting but hunting at the edge of a harvested cornfield isn't?
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<br>etc, etc.
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NuAG. You know you are entirely right. Gene put me in my place when he said we are taking our selves to seriously. I genuinely admire people that can shoot long distance for the dedication and concentration it takes. I just disagree with the taking of game that way. I was raised in the very country that those folks are in. I disagreed with it then when I was 18 and I still do 40 years later
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<br>Someone once said that ethics is what you do when there is no one watching you.
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<br>Even in the baiting issue, you can sure get into heated discusions with the feds over shooting waterfowl. This is as to what is baited and what is normal agricultural purposes. In differnt parts of the country what is ethical in one place is deemed not in another. Re lion hunting in CA, Buckshot for deer in the south, running deer with dogs in the south, so on and so on.
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<br>However, we need to police ourselves to the non hunting puplic such that the we do not portray our selves as just blood thirst killers. In the end, it is those people that will decide if our hunting traditional survives in the future. This was brought home very thorougly here in Colorado, when all the non hunters mounted a campaign as to how cruel it was to hunt bear in the spring as all the hunters were suppose to be orphaning cubs. By initiative, they brought the question to a vote before the general public and convinced the voters to ban spring bear hunting, baiting and hunting with dogs. This can occur in every state in the union. To boot, the effort was bankrolled by out of staters.
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<br>Your grandfathers statement is very true, but in todays society, we must also worry about those other peple that do not hunt.
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Tom, did you ever catch George Carlin on driving? "Anyone driving slower than you is a freaking moron, and anyone driving faster than you is a freaking maniac!" I think that pretty much applies to ethics. What you do without a thought may cause someone else alot of grief. Probably better to let that can of worms un-opened.
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<br>We were all brought up differently, so we all have different ideas of what is right and what is wrong. I'm like you in that I limit my shots to what I'm sure of. I'm pretty picky of my shots because, as I've said, it bothers me very badly to lose one that's been hit. Someone who violates state game laws bothers me much less than someone who won't make the effort to recover a wounded deer.
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<br>As for the long range stuff, well if these guys want to spend the money for gear, and the time to become good at it, that's up to them. They say that they never loose one, and while I generaly stay away from constant statements, who am I to argue? I can't prove they did any more than they can prove they didn't.
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<br>The only thing bothering me is some inexperienced person reading these stories, and thinking he can do it too. The guys who know enough to limit their shots, generaly know they don't need a super-dooper magnum to kill deer. But those super-dooper magnums sell more and more every year. Do you think everybody buying one of them is bothering to practice like these guys? Me neither.
<br>7mm

Gentlemen -
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<br>As hunters, we are taking the life of a living creature. I'm sure it could care less about our 'ethics'. If we comply with the laws governing the sport, the rest doesn't matter, otherwise, we get into the arbitrary process of determining what the 'ethics' should be, and who sets them. If I really cared how "proud and noble" the animal was, I wouldn't kill it. I'm going to cut it up and eat it. End of story.
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<br>R-WEST

7mmBuster, don't misunderstand me and think that I'm trying to start an arguement with you because I'm not. I full well agree with pretty much everything you said in your first paragraph. I also understand your concern for someone running out and buying the latest mega-blaster to snipe deer with at a 1000yds. However here's the truth of the matter. Everyone has to start somewhere and hopefully along that line of education they develop some ethics and understanding of what hunting means to them. If it was mandatory that we all start as expert (meaning no mistakes allowed) then how many hunters do you think would be out there. I would venture a guess that bowhunting wouldn't even exist if that were the case. I used to bowhunt a lot, for over a decade it was an all consuming passion. However I eventually completely lost interest in it for a number of reasons. I was deeply involved during my hiatus though and I can tell you right now the average bowhunter isn't nearly as proficient as the average rifle man. Why? Because bowhunting takes more time to master....just like long range hunting. As far as time and dedication are concerned I see no difference between someone using a primitive weapon and someone wanting to become skilled at long range hunting. If you can't put in the time, one should think real hard about whether they have any business flipping an arrow or launching a bullet at a live target.

Heck, Sky, I know everyone has got to start somewnere. I was lucky enough to have a father who loves to hunt, and cared enough to start me off right and give me guidance. I think you mis-understood me. There are alot of folks buying these mega-blaster magnums who have no intention of learning. They hear someone talk of a 1000 yrd kill, and think "Wow, I got the same gun, so I can do it too!".
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<br>We all agree that there is no substitute for experience, no matter how close or far you're hunting. But you and I both know that some will try to substitute money for experience.
<br>7mm

It's all good. Ethics means limiting yourself to shots you know you can make. Like for me, shooting a deer 50 yards offhand is not an ethical problem like it is for DonKnows. In the same token, taking a deer at 300+ yards isn't the ethical problem for DonKnows that it is for me.

I think a lot of the problem on the other thread is that - without realizing it - some folks are confusing ethics with preferences.I cannot fathom deer hunting as a two person sport,as in needing a spotter.It's obvious that a spotter is needed for the LR hunting those fellows do, but that is in direct conflict with what I enjoy about deer hunting.
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<br>I would much rather share a camp with saddlesore where we each go hunt the territory we prefer and meet back at camp.I wouldn't enjoy the LR hunting at all.I don't have to try it to know I dont like it.
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<br>I have my own hunting ethics and they dont differ greatly from the majority on here. I can agree with a man on ethics and be his friend even if we have different preferences.It's hard to imagine being friends with a man whose ethical standards were far different from mine.
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<br>That's why I think it's important to distinguish between preferences and ethics.

I can't find a way to link ethics with range of shot! I know if I am hunting out of my climbing deer stand that my shots will be off hand or if enough time possibly propped on one knee! So I hunt in the woods when using this stand shots are 0-100yds...
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<br>Now put me on the ground at the edge of a field and things change dramatically. Either froma sitting sling position or prone off a rest my range doubles or triples without a lot of hooplahh.
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<br>Now throw in a bipod and some rear bags and it comes down to my knowlege of the range, trajectory of rifle and load, and ability to manipulate the scope for above! All of a sudden a hundred yards seems like rock throwing distance...
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<br>The bottom line for me is making shots within our own ability and having the discipline to pass up a shot. I have met MANY people who have never seen a shot they wouldn't take a crack at....That is un-ethical to me.
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<br>Mike

Gene you may just well be right. Everybody has what they were brought up with or what they have learned over time. I grew up with a certain set of more or less self imposed hunting rules taught me by my dad and uncles. I was also around a lot of outlaws who taught me other things. I know how to do a lot of things that will result in meat on the ground if that is all I cared about. Not exactly illegal things either but just things that don't fit with the way I believe I ought to do things. I could post them but I won't because somebody would try them and I wouldn't want it on my consience. I'd wager that most of us old heads are like that.
<br>No man is fit to tell another how to live his life as long as what the other fellow is doing is legal.
<br>As to the long range whoop te do going on the other thread all I have to say is this. My idea of hunting does not include killing deer with crew served weapons and computers. I won't be around it, I would not allow it on any of the property that I have or control, I want no part of it and I have my opinion concerning those who do that sort of thing. That opinion I will keep to my self even though it may be fairly obvious. I am reasonably sure that some feel the same way about the use of feeders and food plots as I do about the long rangers. Fine, they can stay on their side of the fence and I will stay on mine. Easiest way for me to keep the peace is just not read that thread any more and make no more comment about it
<br>BCR

Ready,
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<br>"The bottom line for me is making shots within our own ability and having the discipline to pass up a shot. I have met MANY people who have never seen a shot they wouldn't take a crack at....That is un-ethical to me."
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<br>I agree
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<br>I think "some" of the people here have missed that point.
<br>Just tossing lead out there hoping to hit a deer is a lot different then knowing the distance (not guessing) and knowing through practice what needs to be done to kill that deer. It really doesn't matter if the distance is 100 yards, 400 yards or more.
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<br>Don

I posted here because the other thread keeps burning my fingers when I touch the keyboard. The only thought lingering for me was that it has been said repeatedly that the LR guys always look for orange before they shoot. In Colorado and other states which require orange this is a good thing. However, can they see a guy in camo at those ranges? No sarcasm at all, just curious. 8ball

PBLR found a guy a few year's ago dressed in FULL CAMO the first day of PA BUCK SEASON.He said the thing that caught his eye was the sunlight reflecting off the guy's glasses. The main thing we look for is movement.A person sitting at 1000 yard's even in camo is easy to pick out when they move.And they WILL move.I did'nt know there were any state's that don't have an orange law on public ground.

Yes, Oregon still has held out. Don't know how long, but so far so good. If you don't get far enough off the road, the bright color makes you too good a target for the one-weekend-a-year warriors.
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Well I know here in Canada at least here in B.C. we are not required to wear any orange and I know of people that have blinds set up on cut lines that I would wonder whether anybody would be able to see them.
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<br>Makes me wonder sometimes how safe they are as they blend in and you can not see movement and being usually constructed of natural cover such as branches and small trees they could possibly have deer wander up to them and someone a ways away could shoot at said deer and never know someone was in there.
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<br>As for long range shooting, I have taken some long shots but nothing out of the ordinary for most experienced shooters.
<br>I do pass up any questionable shots and that is just the way I am.
<br>Like Boggy has said, I was brought up in a hunting family and Dad instilled some hard and fast rules and ethics that we all live by.
<br>I have as someone said not YET lost one, don't intend to and hope never to, but there is always "Murphys law."

I'm in Oreegun also and while I hope we're never required to wear the "pumpkin suits", I won't wear camo either. With some of the "hunters" I see here (east side of the coast range) I'd rather be seen and not carried out. The day after a few of us were discussing it last season,I was sitting on a stump glassing , and what do I see across the canyon but a "hunter " glassing with his riflescope,and guess who was in the crosshairs?!! It being after a few cups of coffee and feeling a little twitchy I dropped behind the stump and commenced shouting a few choice phrases(such as a likely but physically impossible place to deposit said rifle and scope). Caught up with him and explained that he may want to purchase a set of binoc.s and that my first impulse when seeing a firearm pointed at me is to point back and REALLY hope I don't hear a shot in the near vicinity. As for long range hunting, my brother in law and I hunt moderate range (out to 525 yds or so,we're always within a couple miles of each other,when we spot one just call the other to watch the animal while we shoot. Unless spooked they won't move much in the meantime and always drop like a rock. As stated before, you have to know when to hold em and when to fold em , and I'v passed on more than a few that just didn't feel right. On the other hand thers a lot of guys that shoot quite successfully at moving deer,I would'nt feel comfortable doing that at 10-20 yds. Well the 24hourcampfight (shooters) is getting totally out of hand, guess I'll hang with you guys for awhile. Jeff

Glad you're back.gene