A good buddy of mine is a retired NY State Correctional Officer that was a firearm instructor for the guards for 20 years, and a hell of a pistol shot BTW. I just called him and he said for the homeowner a 12 gauge with 7 1/2 shot is the best as buckshot will obviously penetrate the sheetrock and cause more problems. For the average homwoner he says a pistol is out of the question for home defense as even trained gun owner will miss at 7 feet in a fight, due to obvious nerves. The crazy thing he said was a sicko with a knife within that seven feet, against a man with a holstered gun will win every time. Another story that can probably be googled is the perp who took about 15 9mm rounds and still faught, was on PCBs and felt nothing. Shoot straight if you must and I hope none of us ever have to. Again this is one correctional officers opinion and not meant to disparage anybodys opinion, I just found it interesting.
Maybe... no mention of the shot size used. That is important information for this discussion. Did I miss them say it was a #7.5 trap load? Couldn't that have been anything up to and including 00 Buck?
I've shot quite a few vest too. A local department had some Level IIA vest in the basement of their building that got soaked after the basement flooded. My department absorbed their jurisdiction when they had some internal "difficulties." As we were sorting through records and such in that basement I found the vest. As a firearms and tactics instructor I grabbed onto them. I took them outside and let them air and thoroughly dry out. A few weeks later I did some test shooting through them and some other outdated and replaced vest my department had with various handgun, rifle, and shotgun loads. My department vest were probably Level III and I cannot remember the range I shot them at. Some of those vest allowed any and everything to pass through. Some did their job and even low recoil 00 Buck loads failed to penetrate some of the vest. It seems water exposure and direct sunlight/heat has an adverse affect on the construction materials. That is why most have an expiration date after which they are supposed to be replaced. I've worked a few shotgun shootings too and I will say this - the shotgun is a very decisive and terminal weapon used within its useful range. You are welcome to load #7.5's if that makes you feel warm and fuzzy. Me? I'll opt for a larger shot size everytime.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
Maybe some day I'll figure out why some people insist on selecting a self-defense projectile based on its inability to penetrate a sheet of drywall, while at the same time assuming it will obliterate an assailant.
Oh wait, never mind. I forgot I ran my first 25 in trap with 9's and LM choke. Someone gave me those things and I had no idea what to do with them so I figured shoot some trap with em.
Let's think about this. From the 16 yard line, you were braking a 45yard edge on target with 9s. Like I said, don't underestimate the power of a wad of shot.
PS: Mogc is also correct. 00Buck is an impressive hammer.
at short range i do not believe the shot size matters as to its lethality. a bigger concern is over penatration and what is going to stop it.
absolutely right, though not in the context you mean. Penetration is important. Birdshot tends to make a large surface wound, with little penetration. If your intent is to wound and maim, then use those #7s. If you want to stop your attacker, use 00 Buck. My intent is to use my attacker's body to stop the buck shot.
Maybe some day I'll figure out why some people insist on selecting a self-defense projectile based on its inability to penetrate a sheet of drywall, while at the same time assuming it will obliterate an assailant.
Or maybe I won't.
Well said...
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
What reality? If one were really searching for "reality" there would be a need to keep an open mind and investigate ALL the available information. Ignoring other test such as those from the box o' truth and several others on the 'net (all indicate a decided lack of penetration from shot sizes smaller than #4's for this purpose) don't lend credibility of a true search for "reality." The first video had no information of the load used to shoot the vest and no information about the vest itself. Ignoring those important details doesn't make them go away. Mark Twain once said of statistics that many people use them as the drunk does the lamp post. For simple support and not true illumination. That seems to be the case here too.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
Yea Jim Wilson and the Gunsight people don't know.... Then again they ain't guessing.
I watched the clip and I'm not sure what global conclusions can be made.
It looks like they showed that the birdshot penetrated the first layer of drywall. But beyond that they didn't really compare the three loads.
And the whole point is about penetrating people, who aren't made of drywall.
So to my way of thinking, which could possibly be slow on the uptake, they showed that those who choose birdshot because it will kill bad folks, but not go through a wall and hurt their family, are now possibly proven half wrong, with the other half still up in the air.
You are not missing anything. Obviously the birdshot did not compare to the other two with regards to total penetration and never will.
My entire point-which some seem to miss-is that a shotgun up close is a formidable weapon. At 20 feet the damage it causes will not just be a large surface wound, but a major destruction of tissue.
I've finished off two road hit Deer with a 12ga using 8s or 7.5s at a distance of probably around 10feet. One tore through the entire neck and the other smashed completely through the spine. It was decisive, quick and left little doubt as to the close range power of a shotgun with any reasonable load. Their skin isn't made of dry wall either. However, it is a little tougher than mine.
If others want to use 00buck fine. It will work. However, 8s, 7.5s, 6s, etc at close range are not to be taken lightly.
I guess what I'd like to see is some yard by yard penetration results for birdshot, from contact distance to the point where any effectiveness tails off. Bottom line, nobody (that I know of) hunts deer with birdshot, so I think it's safe to assume that there's agreement that there's a limitation at some point, no matter how big a fan you are of birdshot at across the room distances.
I've seen too many reports of "surface damage only" or tests suggesting inadequate penetration to be comfortable guessing what that distance is, or counting on being within those bounds when push comes to shoot. Add to that the complexity of different ammo and chokes and its just too much of an unknown for me to risk.
