Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting Why is this ok with most hunters?

Why is it ok with most hunters to kill woodchucks/groundhogs, prarie dogs, coyotes and other varmints at LR but to kill a deer, elk, moose or other such animal at LR, they get their panties in a knot?
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<br>Compared to these Williamsport guys I am a mere piker. My best kill on a woodchuck is a mere 660 yards using my 22 CHeetah MK 1. If I can acurately kill a woodchuck at 660 yards why is that ok and why isn't it ok to kill a much larger animal (deer) at the same distance?
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<br>Don

Don - Excellent question. In my opinion, it comes down to frame of mind and ultimately the respect for the animal you are shooting.
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<br>I shoot a lot of varmints (PDs & yotes). I do not distinguish between target shooting and varmint shooting. I have shot at and consistently hit PDs out to 600 yards. I have made a few swipes at them at over 1000 yards - I have not connected yet. I have several target/varmint guns set up specifically for long range shooting. While I consider myself a good LR shot, I do not attempt shooting much past 250 to 300 yards while hunting game animals. The chances for wounding increase with yardage - period.
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<br>All of these LR shooting discussions always focus on �hunting ethics�. I know lots of folks that take shoots at animals well beyond their limits - sometimes this is 100 yards, sometimes it�s at 500 yards. It depends upon the capabilities of the shooter and their frame of mind. I have a problem with anyone out there taking pot shots at game. These guys don�t give a damn if they wound and animal or not. This is where the problem lies, not with experienced LR hunters.
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<br>At the end of the day, this is a very subjective topic that will never be adequately answered for all hunters.

If you can consistently put the animal down in its tracks at 600 or 700 yards then go for it. I know that deer do not drop in their tracks from much closer shots but if the deer is a 50 yards away or 200 yards away you are closer to get on the track quicker. I do not have a problem with long range hunting if the person doing it is capable. Someone that reads a few articles about it. Pulls his trajectory info from a reloading manual and sets out to shoot a deer on the far side of that mountain over there with out ever firing the rifle at anything further away than his 100 yard range back home is the person I don't want to see doing it.
<br>Or how about the guys that were shooting Elk at over 1000 yards in I daho. If the animal didn't drop with in sight they forgot about that one and moved on to another. Now is that ethical?
<br>Now before everyone gets in a tizzy, like I said if you are good enough to make the clean kill, and determined enough to hike the 1000 yards to pick up the blood trail and start tracking then I have no problem with you taking those shots.
<br>Sean

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr><p>I do not attempt shooting much past 250 to 300 yards while hunting game animals. The chances for wounding increase with yardage - period. <p><hr></blockquote>
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<br>Are you saying that a PD or coyote is less deserving of a quick death? Not flaming you, just want to understand your reasoning. I happen to disagree, and am interested in you thoughts on the question.
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Some things are worth more than other things. Fact of life. I don't know of anyone save the die hard PETA/ALF idiots that doesn't recognize that a deer is more valuable than a wood rat. Most folks I know will kill a rat any way they can. Not too many get emotional over rats. Things of greater value deserve greater respect. There are different orders in the stream of life. Different people put different values on things. Take wild hogs. Some look at them as game animals. I don't. They are worthless nusances to me. I will kill them young or old, sick or well, hale or halt. I will kill them with dogs, guns, knives, and base ball bats, fire and if I could find something that worked, poison. Deer are different to me though to some they may be as hogs are to me. Every body puts a different value and degree of respect to things. That is natural.
<br>BCR

ZeroDrift, -- Thank you, intelligent post and reply. -- no

Zero Drift
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<br>Excellet reply as per the sentence where you said "Not the experianced Long range hunter".
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<br>It's true, we don't just lob bullets out there. We wait for the right shot. If it doesn't appear, we don't take it no matter how big or how many points that animal has.
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<br>As explained before, the shooting of an animal at longrange has a total different effect on it, as compared to the short range shooter hitting one.
<br>When hit at LR, they just lay down and DO NOT RUN. A person who has never seen this, may not believe that but, I can assurre you, it's true if you have never killed at LR.
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<br>The LR way is here to stay and there's plenty of room, just about everywhere, for all hunting styles and ways to pursue game.
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<br>Darryl Cassel
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<br>PS--I still grab a light rifle and get in the dark timber on foot in Colorado, the mountains of PA and West Virginia every year. I don't JUST hunt LR but, I prefer it, which is my right to do. I have always tried to do it the best I can and with the Best equipment available to get the job done. My hunting partners and I have been VERY successful at it.

I tend to think alot of hunters are hypocrits!!!! They have no problem throwing lead in the general direction of a pd, yote, groundhawg.. but when you mention a whitetail, muley or and elk, they act as if it is a symbol or religeon!!. Thay are ALL animals and ALL deserve respect. pd's yotes are called varmints but they are a very essential part of the food chain and mother nature in general. YOU NEED THEM... beleive it or not.
<br>I am a professional big game guide and well as a guest ranch owner. I am not a tree hugger or peace freak. I just believe that all animals deserve the same respect...
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<br>before you squeeze the trigger you should KNOW EXACTLY where the bullet is going... One shot, and moments later you should have a harvested animal.
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<br>just my .02

Darryl, are you guys typically trophy hunters as opposed to meat hunters? I tend to do both, but was curious what criteria you use. Since this topic started, I've been intrigued by this method. Would be interesting to see or try, althuogh my own beliefs and experience would limit me to targets at this point. 8ball

THanks WyoWhisper, you put it into words better than I! I agree this is just another debate of ethics that will never get 'solved', but was just curious as to the train of thought.

Hello 8Ball
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<br>We tend to start out as looking for trophy animals and pass up inferior ones.
<br> As the season is winding down to the last day or two you sometimes wonder why you let some of the other bucks or bulls go. We still like the horns but, if we need some meet we will take a 6 Point eastern count white tail or just a legal 4 point bull IF WE WANT TO FILL A TAG.
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<br>We honestly don't mind coming back empty handed because, we know we could have killed any legal animal we saw.
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<br>Later
<br>Darryl

Pointer - I spend most of my hunting time in Africa. I do deer hunt a couple of days every year, and I spend some time varmint shooting to control the local yote population. For one week every year I travel to SD with friends to shoot PDs. To me, varmint shooting is not hunting. Granted, as hunters, we all should adopt the German attitude of honoring each animal we shoot. Every time I pull the trigger my intent is to place the bullet within the 10 ring no matter if it is 100 yards, or 1000 yards. I also intend to kill as cleanly and as quickly as I possibly can no matter if my target is a PD or a 45 inch buff. (I should say �Especially� if it is a 45 inch buff. I have not heard anyone being trampled by a wounded prairie rat)
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<br>All that being said, after you shoot 30 or 40 p�dogs you kinda take on the mind set that you are out target shooting. I have done a lot of culling work on deer here in the states and I have culled several hundred antelope in Africa (many different species). Over the course of my hunting life I have shot truckloads of animals - some for varmint control, some for population control, some for trophy, and most for the freezer. When culling, I am a little more casual (not sloppy) than when I am shooting a trophy. If my heart rate is any indication, I can get pretty worked up shooting a 60 inch Kudu, yet I don�t break a sweat shooting an impala for camp meat. Maybe the $1,500 trophy fee has something to do with it. In Africa, if you make it bleed, you bought it.
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<br>I have a shooting friend who is a meat butcher for a local grocery store. Before his grocery store job, he worked at a slaughterhouse. I asked him if it bother him to watch the cattle walk into the gate and get their head whacked with the pneumatic piston. His reply was - �NO, I simply viewed it as part of the process.� I went hunting with him many years ago when he shot a beautiful 10 point deer. He almost broke down and cried when he came back into camp talking about the deer. This is a guy who slaughters animals for a living! I gotta say, I was not surprised by his reaction because I know how he feels about hunting.
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<br>The point that I was attempting to address is - I take on a different mind set when I am hunting rather than varmint shooting or culling. While I never want an animal to suffer at my hands, I approach varmint shooting and big game hunting with a completely different mind set. As BCR stated, �Some things are worth more than other things�. In hunting situations, I am a little more conservative with taking long range shots. I do not purposely set about shooting deer at 500+ yards even though I am fully capable of doping the wind and operating a Leica range finder.
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<br>I know that long range hunting can be done successfully and cleaning, I just don�t do it. Furthermore, I don�t have a problem for those who are experienced LR shooters and desire to take deer or elk at 500+ yards. I know these guys are doing everything within their power to make a clean kill. However, I DO have a problem with the amateur-lead-sprayer mentality - no matter if it's 10 yards or 1000 yards. There are some people who just should not be out hunting until they have developed their skill level and mind set towards killing an animal. Unfortunately, this is impossible to control. We can only work hard to influence follow hunters to do the right thing. In any event, sitting around here arguing about the best cartridge, or the best action, or what is the proper distance to shoot an animal ain�t getting the word out...
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<br>So back to Don�s question - I do think there is a difference between varmint shooting and long range hunting. I see a distinction between the two, but I don't get my panties in a wad about it.
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<br>(As you can tell, it was a slow Friday for me.)

WW, -- think I read some of your stuff on another board. About this big game vers varmint hunting, I think we owe a humane kill to any living thing! We eat big game, we don't eat varmints as such. Most varmints destroy crops, pastures, edible animals, or spread disease, that's why we shoot them in the first place. At least that's why I do. Course I'm ignorant, dumb, and several other adjectives used by some on this board so take your pick, who cares, it's legal! -- no

One thing that has not been addressed here ( maybe the wrong thread), is the rush you get of being within 15-20 yards of a bull elk in full rut. This guy either wants to screw something or kill it. Either way, if you are it's target, you are not going to be happy with the results ( I have been run up a tree by a big bull) Anyway, you get don't get that rush shooting dogs at 500 ydes, and I would believe niether with deer or elk. I even get a rush stalking cow elk in deep timber. They are a heck of a lot harder to get up on than a bull in rut. Especially when there are a few of them. To me that's what it's all about. The day I don't get that feeling is the day I stop elk hunting. I don't need to shoot another elk inmy lifetime, but really enjoy the challenge. As I have said before, the number of elk you kill (or any game animal) is not how you keep score in his game

Thanks for your reply, I was just trying to get your mindset and you stated it. I can see you point and can imagine my views would be the same if I am ever lucky enough to experience the same things. Thanks for you reply and not taking the question as a flame.