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100 yards offhand is still somewhat within your territory, so let's do that for both of you. As far as bench goes, let's go 600 yards for both of you, with the rifle of your choice. Darryl, you surely do have a gun that doesn't weigh more than ten pounds, don't you? Use it for the offhand stage. Shooting bench is also your cup of tea, so we'll go for a 600 yard bench match. Both of you are somewhat in the others realm. This is a fair match I would think. No real extreme bias, unless Darryl is a really awful offhand shot. If that's the case, ask IIFID if the offhand portion can be shot at 50 yards so you can still hit the target. As far as 600 yards not being far enough, I don't like extremem bias.
<br> Let's go 50 offhand and 600 off a bench, if both of you approve. You both will be in the other's territory, but not so far that you don't stand a chance in it.

If "This"
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<br>I see your still stirring the crap.
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<br>Your still a Joke and always will be to me.
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<br>So changing the rules again, thats par for you. Try and make it look like I am backing out which I'm not.
<br>When you decide to shoot at 100 yards and 1500 yards , shot for shot, I will be here waiting for your sorry self.
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<br>My attorney was certainly correct in your case.
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<br>Darryl

I have an Idea...Darryl can shoot a light gun at 100 yard's.If can too....Darryl can shoot his heavy gun at 1500.And I will provide the gun for IF.That's if you don't mind Darryl.????We'll give (If) a Drop chart and a wind chart.....The range will be 1500 yard's.Darryl,How many round's do you think it would take him to even get close.....Both of you shoot light gun's at 100 yard's.10 shot's each from a bench....At a thumb tack......10 thumb tack's at 1000 dollars each.Then you will both shoot heavy gun's at 1500.10 shot's at a 15 inch circle.The same 1000 dollars a shot would apply.I think I would even get in on that one...How about it DC?....Split the money with you 50-50.(IF) own's a ranch in Texas....I don't think he would miss 20 grand or so...........:)

HUMMINGBIRD:
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<br>I'm ready, anytime for the bet that YOU said YOU would take, but YOU aren't, are YOU? I shoot at 100 and you shoot at 1500, remember that? You wussed out on that, and then you wussed out on a straight up, off hand contest, seems like the only thing you want to do is shoot in your comfort zone with all the edge. Which is NOT what you said in YOUR response to Okanagan.
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<br>In other words, to sum it up, you lie like a cheap rug.
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<br>And your attorney undoubtedly earns his fees.

This still seems pretty biased. Bench rest at 100 yards? Darryl, IIFID, I think you should shoot offhand at 50 yards against one another, and off a bench rest at 600 yards. Both of you would have a chance to be in your element, and neither one would have to get out of it too far. You should determine how the money goes amongst yourselves, but that is the fairest I can come up with.

Big Hunter...I'd like to get in on that one too.....

Darryl.
<br>I think you have just met your match, I know IIFID and he isn't kidding! He has the loot and the skill, I would be very careful what I wrote from this point on. All the propraganda won't help on the field.
<br>Rick created this board for you and you continue to draw controversy, that tells most of us something. As JJ says about long range shooting, "there are a thousand things to go wrong and only one to go right".
<br>You are correct, this is the Long Range Hunting board and for people interested in what you are selling, the ones that don't believe in shooting live targets at extended ranges should depart to their own boards or campfire and let this place run it's course.
<br>When and if you do shoot a match for money, several of us would like to attend. Personally I would like to see some of your shots in the Colorado mountains with all the cross winds and gusts. Been hunting up there since 51 and know the country. -- no

Well I have stayed out of all this, but it has made for some interesting reading. I just hope that somehow we can eventually put it to rest and get on with what this forum should be about. Hope you all can come up with some solution that is amenable to all.

LOL!!! Good one Boyd!! That is the fairest way I know of to go about it though. Neither guy is rediculously far out of his element. I think IIFID would win the 50 yard offhand portion, and Darryl would probably win the 600 yard bench rest portion. I wouldn't know though. Hey, would IIFID and Darryl please tell me what they think of this idea for a match? Is this proposal acceptal to both of you? I would love to see the results of this.

Nice try, Boyd, but simply more smoke to cover you buddy. I don't blame you, that is what friends are for.
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<br>I don't know if you can be unbiased, but the problem with this and other LR threads is that you guys, lead by Hummingbird, come across as somehow believeing that what you do is superior and are patronizing to those of us who disagree with you on philosophical grounds. You can bet on one thing, which is more that Hummingbird will do, and that is that if your idea of "sport" game sniping continues to spread, as you predict, then it will cause a backlash among hunters, much less the rest of the public, and that will lead to restrictions that will hurt us all.
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<br>The funny part about it is, while I don't believe that LRH is fair chase, I support your right to do it, as long as it is legal. But when someone makes false statements, such as "legal is ethical, period" and then agrees to take a bet and suddenly decides he doesn't like the terms, I question his word. Maybe you should too. Regardless of how many animals he has sniped or how many benchrest shots he has shot.
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<br>And finally, I read, time after time, where these are LR threads, and we should all bow to the knowledge of the participants. Well, let me clue you in, unlike the censored sight that LR hunters call home, 24hr has people that feel free to give an uncensored opinion, and if you can't live with that, tough. If you check my post, I have never disputed one claim that you or Hummingbird or any other LRH has made, I have only discussed ethical considerations or responded to statements that were made, such as the bet. You and others may not like that, but it is still a free country, last time I checked.
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<br>And, I can guarantee you one thing, unlike Hummingbird, when I say I'll take a bet, it is took Something about I value my word. Instead, upon reflection, he wants all the best of it, after he decides that he didn't really mean what he said the first time or however many times it was, I was willing to chance that I might beat him head up, to use his phrasing, like a man. He isn't.

IFID,
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<br>See the problem is.. and lets be honest here. Shooting long distances is hard. Agreed? Then you here of the LRH guys that are killing way out to 2000 yards. Then the average hunter says " holy cow " how can they do that.. no way it is possible.. Then human instinct takes over and says" i don't know anything about that" add a pinch of some ego.. and the average guy,... because he is out of his element becomes defensive and fear enters ..so to counter his fear and the unknown he uses negative comments and tries to demoralize the LRH. This is in an attempt to bring this person who can accomplish this unbelievable feat to this average hunters level. This happens because as humans we do not want to feel unequal or less than the next guy.
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<br>Now I am not saying this about everyone on this forum BUT.. this is the typical response in all the forums that LRH enter in to. Honestly.. if everyone can step back and look how this LRH forum evolved on this site.. this is almost EXACTLY how it happened. Although I am not sure alot of the doubters here are man enough to admit to it.. after all their ego would take a dent or two...
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<br>IFID.. your name say alot about you ( if it flies it dies ) you want the feeling of power and control the ability to kill at will. This is exactly why you feel talked down to and why you feel LRH's act superior. You fit the mold of a Texan, lotsa money and a loud mouth. Thats fine, I know alot about Texans I am partners with one in the hunting operation. He'll be the first to admit ( especially the ranchers ) ( he used to be one ) they talk alot cause they have the money to back it...thats OK though.
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<br>I do not believer the LRH thread was started so that every hunter here could come here to challenge the ethics or morality of the LRH.. For the most part that is what has occured. NOT to learn somthing about what LRH's do.. or how it is done or how a person can become a more efficient or accurate shooter. We never intended for anyone to bow to us THAT IS ABSOLUTY REDICULUS.. Some of the LRH's here ( including me ) offered to have you as guests in our home so you can see how things are done.. HOW IS THAT BOWING to us... comon!!!
<br>IFID, your right, this is a free country.. You opinions are welcomed. But in all honesty do you think this forum ( LRH )was created so you could come here to voice your negitiveness to LRH. I expected some of it. But you, RG, and some others are begining to take it to another level. Remember the owner of the site probobly thought that there was some interest in this type of hunting. Why not open a forum to discuss it.
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<br>The censored site you speak of is not censored.. To you maybe becaue all you care about is YOUR opposition to LRH. You do not wish to enter the site to discuss the "how to" or the aspects of building a LRH rifle or ballistics at extended ranges.. you just want to spout off.. and that IS NOT welcomed there....
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<br>You offered a bet that seem a little one sided.. when things got even you changed your specifics of the bet.
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<br>You are typical.. and thats fine.. I can accept it. I can even have a civil discussion with you. But can you accept me and have a civil discussion with me..
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<br>See this LRH is so taboo or outside the box.. that most, because they do not understand it, or think they may not be able to do it.. becaome afraid of it..... thats when all the negativity starts....
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<br>It is a shame this happend. Darryl has forgotten more knowledge about this sport than I will probobly ever learn. You of all people living in texas could have probobly used some of the knowledge. You would not know that. You never wanted to give it a chance. In my opinion YOUR ego got in the way....
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<br>To all the other non-believers or guys that that really don't want to know anything about this than to beat it down. Thats not why this is here. I said it before and I will say it again. I came to share. I will argue, I will defend, but only when disrespected or backed into a corner... It is definitly a shame seeing some of the opposition and negitive attitudes towards LRH here.
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<br>I am fortunate enough to be in the position and have a place, that friends I make though this common interest can be ( if they desire ) afforded, and offered, a means to really try this sport in an area where it is possible. I open my doors to anyone who wants to learn.
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<br>I thought this was the place I could have made some new friends...
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Hello---To the original poster who brought up the size targets at 100 and 1500 yards.
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<br>As origanlly posted by you, I would take the bet and say that "as written", without any scenario changes as "If" and I have been bouncing around, the 10" plate would be hit more times (certainly) at 100 yards using the "SAME" (as at 1500 yards) rifle then the 1500 yard same size target. Now as you mentioned again, if the target was a kill zone target at 1500 yards the odds are much better for the 1500 yard shot but, still not as good as the 100 yard shot using the "same" rifle.
<br>The "SAME" rifle at 100 yards and 1500 yards is the catch here. I'm all for that and anyone wanting to bet or shoot as origanally posted, I'm for. You said nothing about, off hand, prone, bipods or benchrest style. I would presume that means take your pick of styles.
<br>I'm an extreme lR shooter/hunter and you all should know which way I will be shooting my 67 Lb rifle.
<br>Yes again, to "this" bet and if "IF" wants to try that, I would be all for it as "originally posted".
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<br>I mentioned shot for shot , side by side, same day and time and same size target. The scenerios got changed by he and I along the way, (in these many posts) for both of us to make a point. I however, never said anything about which style of shooting one was to take.
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<br>I suggest anyone forgetting how this was originally written, to go back and read it again.
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<br>Darryl

Bubble, bubble, toil and trouble.... This is a very entertaining thread. I have seen your video. Yes you folks are good at what you do. I saw a deer shot in the head at 400yds. The way I see it people that take head shots wheather they make them or not, at 400 yds can't be worried about wounding the animal. I don't care how you hunt, but when you took that head shot you lost a great deal of credibility. I don't take head shots at 100 yds and I think I can make them if everything goes according to plan. "But, like to bumper sticker says "$hit Happens".

As I say, I have stayed out of this but will say that when you figure how many people are actually on this forum, I am sure that you must realise that this is only a small portion of the members you are dealing with. So there are some like myself that just go around to glean what they can from the different forums and keep their opinions to themselves for the most part while learning what they feel is relevant to them. It has been interesting to say the least, as for myself it would be interesting to try long range shooting but only at targets for now, I have shot at the most 500 Yards only at targets and only to work on making my reloads the best they can be. I hope you will all continue to add to this forum and eventually the dust will settle.

Partsman.....Just so you know the LRH's did'nt start the dust kicking.But people who call something they can't do,or don't understand unethical or unsportsman like.Is just plain wrong.................Let's all have an open mind about this....

Partsman
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<br> This might seem like a significant scuffle but it's usually how things start off when the LRH guy show up or are invited to a new place.
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<br> It's rather unfortunate that this is the initial norm but it's just the normal turn of events. I don't know the real reason behind it but I know it happens with regularity.
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<br> Each of us Long Range Hunters has at one time or another had his turn in the barrel and right now it appears to be a one-on-one scuffle over an innocent proposition offered by a poster. Cool heads will return and things will lighten up, wounds will heal (but may leave scars) and the actual facts will be lost with time like all the previous versions of this inital meeting.
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<br> These posts remind me a bit of a line in 'Quigley Down Under':
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<br>Quigley: �I wish people'd quit hittin' me on the head.�
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<br>Cora: �Don't worry. On a new job, it's quite common for things not to go well at first.�
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<br> So just sit back and wait, once the dust clears we'll be able to see whats being offered a lot better.
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Darryl, thank you for a cool headed response to the original 100 & 1500 target idea. To all, I am genuinely sorry that I posted the fictional match. At best it just made a point that we all know already.
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<br> You long range fellows keep posting the how to's. I've learned a lot from the details. At the same time, when you make strong assertions that differ from data and the experience of others, you have to expect some challenges. Most of the challenges are intended to alert readers that there is another side to the subject, such as MK bullets for game. I'd say, "Don't take it personally," but that is too much to ask of humans. All of us are pretty passionate about hunting.

Well I do, I go by the old adage, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Just hope we all can eventually agree to disagree or some such.

WyoWhisper, please spare us the psycho analysis of those who disagree with you sometimes, and please stop telling us their inner motives and tortured mental path that led them to disagree. Maybe, just possibly, they simply don't agree. Assertions such as never wounding an animal out to 2k yards, MK bullets are superb for big game, and a video of a head shot deer are all legitimate areas of factual, logical question or disagreement, without need for analysis of the mental state of the person responding.
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<br>Just do your thing, share the facts, and get over the paranoia that others are out to get you. Nah, we just disagree with your conclusions sometimes. I do that with my best life long hunting buddy on a few subjects.

Okanogan,,
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<br>No phsyco analysis.. just my opinion.. my observation.. you can take it or leave it.. But I am not far off the mark and I think you know that.
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<br>As far as that persons mental state .. I think we all can see or observe that...
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<br>It is really tough to share facts when all you get is opposition.. you just plain run out of time and energy after you're all done defending yourself...
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<br>( here i go again ) the last thing I am is paranoid... it is basically a day to day thing defending LRH...
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<br>Disagreements and optional ideas and varied opinions are welcomed.. some of the delivery mechanisms of some of the people here are questionalble....
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<br>Like I said.. it is just ashame.. this place is like this.. I'll stick it out for the long haul but not visit as often...
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<br>Like I also said I thought I'd find a new aquaintence or 2 and maybe find a LRH parter near where I live....
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<br>Cabins doors are still open nevertheless...